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West Midlands Trains duty of care: LNR passengers abandoned on platform

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Bletchleyite

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As it happens I do - used to work less than 1/4 mile away from it.

It's not unstaffed after 6pm - LNW's website says the ticket office is open to 8pm.

And whilst any on-station shops may be closed, the nearest shop is about 100 yards away. FWIW at 10pm at night the same would be true of Milton Keynes or Watford Junction - and you'd have a walk to find somewhere at either of those.

The station isn't in the town centre (I never said it was) but Watford Junction isn't either - that's a good 10 mins walk.

The argument for MKC or WFJ wasn't that they were better staffed or better located, but rather that they had more options for onward travel.
 
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Horizon22

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I’m not sure of their whereabouts and obviously my comment here (unlike others of mine in this thread) is in jest, but it doesn’t detract from the fact that on SO many occasions during disruption we see constant complaints that there are no staff to be seen at stations. Nobody to talk to, nobody in offices, nobody on platforms, nobody answering phone lines and help points, unrelated staff not being able to help etc.

This is a cultural thing too that goes back decades - it has often been the norm at some places for some to go hide in offices during disruption and only pop out to dispatch trains. I have seen it get better though because it is a major passenger complaint (and something I personally prefer to see). Either that or good remote information (strong announcements, accurate information on display screens etc.).
 

riceuten

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Thanks. I will add that this is being done 10x over sometimes with phones ringing off the hook so if you aren't taking adequate notes and priortising actions - and keeping passengers moving somehow (not necessarily by train or that specific route) is priority one especially when they are "mid-journey" - you can be completely overwhelmed and only focus on what is in front of you until Control senior managers start calling timeouts and implementing contingency plans. The response improves with experience and over time.

So I can understand how this happened, I empathise with the controllers trying to resolve the incident at an awkward time and the passengers stuck at Hemel, but can still appreciate things went significantly wrong and I would hazard a guess that much of the issue can be pinpointed on lacklustre communication. 99% of the time during a fatality this doesn't happen and people frantically work behind the scenes to get a semblance of a service running which can mean significant delays and cancellations for an incident such as this.

Let's be completely honest. The passengers were forgotten about. No amount of equivocation will hide that. And no amount of mealy mouthed operational issues will excuse that. Taxis could and should have been provided OR a train stopped to pick up passengers. NOTHING will be learnt from this, it's happened time and again. Unless TOCs suffer some kind of significant sanction in cases like these, there is no impetus for them to change the way they work.

I remember being stuck at St Neots one morning, and there was a car park full of taxis that the TOC wouldn't use...because a bus had apparently been ordered. After an hour, I was told the (single) bus had "just left Peterborough", and "would probably not be able to take all the passengers" (there were a couple of hundred). The station staff couldn't get through to control (as they were busy sorting out the recovery), and the manager required to authorise the use of taxis was "in a meeting until lunchtime". And if anyone took a taxi without getting it cleared, the station staff said that they "couldn't guarantee you would be reimbursed"
 

43096

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It's not unstaffed after 6pm - LNW's website says the ticket office is open to 8pm.
To repeat your own attitude, have you actually read this thread? 6pm or 8pm is irrelevant when customers are dumped there after 9pm!
 

robbeech

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This is a cultural thing too that goes back decades - it has often been the norm at some places for some to go hide in offices during disruption and only pop out to dispatch trains. I have seen it get better though because it is a major passenger complaint (and something I personally prefer to see). Either that or good remote information (strong announcements, accurate information on display screens etc.).
A little OT but during the HT debacles (multiple) it got to the point where they had to dispatch 3rd party, often completely unknowledgeable representatives to stations to handle their passengers. Other operator’s staff had refused outright to handle HT passengers who were understandably angry and (unacceptably) unpleasant. The appointed contracted staff received lots of complaints, couldn’t answer the questions so frequently just went home leaving the station with staff, but none that would even communicate with these passengers, which is of course worse still than it being unstaffed.
 

riceuten

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The argument for MKC or WFJ wasn't that they were better staffed or better located, but rather that they had more options for onward travel.
I know Hemel, and believe me, the ticket office is not normally open after 6pm. In Watford, there are facilities, a lot more taxis and definitely more staff than at Hemel. The 25 minute walk to Hemel centre passes absolutely nothing.
 

The Planner

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A train terminating at Watford to head north would need to shunt south of the station first before doing so. If it was being put into the south-facing bay or the St Albans line it could shunt via the Up slow, but if it was going back north it could only shunt via the Up Fast. Not a good option when trying to recover a service.
The Up Slow platform at HH still requires a cross-platform shunt for a northbound departure (the OP hints this is what happened), but on the Up Slow not Up Fast. If GTR were turning the WLL service at Watford that may be an additional factor in choosing to turn at Hemel, so as not to block the inter-regional train (and therefore propagate delay to the Brighton Line). Bourne End jn is not far from HH, but there is not a signalled route wrong-road on the Up Slow to terminate and return towards MK.

If a driver is running out of hours, you've got to find somewhere to put the train he or she was driving before they can ride pass back to their depot, and then source another driver to ride pass out to the train (either that night or the next morning) in order to get it where it should have been.

Fundamentally, turning the train at Hemel is a reasonable operational decision, but having done so the controllers must be aware there are passengers waiting at HH for the next train and organise an SSO (or alternative transport) accordingly. It's almost certainly a mistake not a conspiracy/deliberate decision, but still a total failure on the TOC's part not to do so.
No signalled route at Hemel, but you can be signalled up slow to down slow at Bourne End via WT1421. Under the old Watford layout you could shunt back via the Up Slow onto the down.
 

riceuten

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I used to work just north of the Eurostar terminal in St Pancras, and EVERY time there were extended delays, E* would employ security staff to deal with "Customer Service"
 

Wolfie

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That’s a perfectly legitimate criticism. My observation would be that some of the most vociferous complainers on this thread also tend to be pro DOO, destaffing etc.



Waste of time and money.
Your view is that taking a TOC to Court is a waste of time and money. Why should passengers incur financial loss for the TOCs failure? Perhaps when they have to employ more lawyers they might get off their complacent asses and put the damned recurrent problems right

Pay to lodge a claim in the small claims court. Pay for it to be actioned when the TOC doesn't respond.

Nein danke.
All of those "pay"s that you mention go straight on the TOC's bill. Send bailiffs into their HQ - yup! In an ideal world it would find its way onto TV, which would encourage others to do the same thing....
 

zwk500

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No signalled route at Hemel, but you can be signalled up slow to down slow at Bourne End via WT1421. Under the old Watford layout you could shunt back via the Up Slow onto the down.
Neither of which are particularly helpful to the OPs situation. Had either been available, maybe a different decision would have been made. But they weren't so it couldn't.
 

43066

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I used to work just north of the Eurostar terminal in St Pancras, and EVERY time there were extended delays, E* would employ security staff to deal with "Customer Service"

Now there's a sign of having lost control.

Or a reflection of the quality of the customers?

Your view is that taking a TOC to Court is a waste of time and money. Why should passengers incur financial loss for the TOCs failure? Perhaps when they have to employ more lawyers they might get off their complacent asses and put the damned recurrent problems right

Yes, taking a TOC to court over £50ish is a waste of time. I lost £20ish quid due to a TOC’s failure the other week. I’m not suing them over it. I’ve learned to suck such things up, because I live in the real world.

All of those "pay"s that you mention go straight on the TOC's bill. Send bailiffs into their HQ - yup! In an ideal world it would find its way onto TV, which would encourage others to do the same thing....

Bailiffs to a TOC HQ over £50 or less? Good luck with that. Fill your boots and please do report back on how you get on.
 

Horizon22

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Let's be completely honest. The passengers were forgotten about. No amount of equivocation will hide that. And no amount of mealy mouthed operational issues will excuse that. Taxis could and should have been provided OR a train stopped to pick up passengers. NOTHING will be learnt from this, it's happened time and again. Unless TOCs suffer some kind of significant sanction in cases like these, there is no impetus for them to change the way they work.

I remember being stuck at St Neots one morning, and there was a car park full of taxis that the TOC wouldn't use...because a bus had apparently been ordered. After an hour, I was told the (single) bus had "just left Peterborough", and "would probably not be able to take all the passengers" (there were a couple of hundred). The station staff couldn't get through to control (as they were busy sorting out the recovery), and the manager required to authorise the use of taxis was "in a meeting until lunchtime". And if anyone took a taxi without getting it cleared, the station staff said that they "couldn't guarantee you would be reimbursed"
Only it doesn’t happen “time and again” 99% of the time passengers ‘turfed off’ at a station are collected by a train following which is often right behind. Otherwise we’d have threads here left right and centre after serious disruption. Most of the time there are delays and cancellations with a fatality but passengers are kept moving somehow via alternative transport

I don’t deny that the passengers were probably forgotten, but that is probably due to a specific set of circumstances which I’ve alluded to and without being a fly on the wall, can only make educated guesses as to what and why it happened. Just because I can understand it though does not mean I think it’s acceptable. The railway should be challenged to do better and most times it does.

These are isolated incidents and of course lessons should and will be learnt given enough weight put on by complaints like the OP. That being said I don’t think wider disruption management is always up to scratch but is a niche, specialised role on the railway and understanding every technicality is difficult, even for those within the industry and even those who do similar roles with less experience.

As an aside do you think similar incidents have never happened in any other transport sector?
 

robbeech

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Yes, taking a TOC to court over £50ish is a waste of time. I lost £20ish quid due to a TOC’s failure the other week. I’m not suing them over it. I’ve learned to suck such things up, because I live in the real world.
You work for the railway, what compensation are you entitled to? Of course you’re not going to sue the railway for £20 because you had to get a taxi.

Or a reflection of the quality of the customers?
With staff like we have seen here there’s little need for any concern about the quality of the customers.

Only it doesn’t happen “time and again” 99% of the time passengers ‘turfed off’ at a station are collected by a train following which is often right behind. Otherwise we’d have threads here left right and centre after serious disruption. Most of the time there are delays and cancellations with a fatality but passengers are kept moving somehow via alternative transport

I don’t deny that the passengers were probably forgotten, but that is probably due to a specific set of circumstances which I’ve alluded to and without being a fly on the wall, can only make educated guesses as to what and why it happened. Just because I can understand it though does not mean I think it’s acceptable. The railway should be challenged to do better and most times it does.

These are isolated incidents and of course lessons should and will be learnt given enough weight put on by complaints like the OP. That being said I don’t think wider disruption management is always up to scratch but is a niche, specialised role on the railway and understanding every technicality is difficult, even for those within the industry and even those who do similar roles with less experience.

As an aside do you think similar incidents have never happened in any other transport sector?
Very sensible and reasonable view.
 

riceuten

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"The railway should be challenged to do better and most times it does"

Which is presumably why it occurs with alarming regularity and has done during most of my travelling life

"lessons should and will be learnt"

Absolutely not. So far as LNWR were concerned, this was a success, the service was recovered, their operating losses or fines for not running the service will be covered by Network Rail or other sources, and passengers, well, just send them a "Due to operating difficulties..." letter and maybe a fiver's worth of vouchers...

"As an aside do you think similar incidents have never happened in any other transport sector?"

Of course they do, but an airline's operations (unless you are Ryanair) usually run 24 hours a day, and with a bus or coach driver, you can normally speak to the driver to resolve the issue(s).
 

AlterEgo

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May I commend the OP for sifting through this battlezone and keeping his head.

I'll be interested to hear LNWR's response. I doubt they'll give a detailed blow by blow account of exactly what happened, but clearly what happened wasn't good enough for the people stuck at HML.
 

43066

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May I commend the OP for sifting through this battlezone and keeping his head.

First day on the Somme springs to mind?

You work for the railway, what compensation are you entitled to? Of course you’re not going to sue the railway for £20 because you had to get a taxi.

Yes I work for the railway. I don’t work for London Overground. I was a customer commuting to work in this instance. Shock horror: I’d be entitled to the same compensation as anyone else in that situation.

With staff like we have seen here there’s little need for any concern about the quality of the customers.

I must be lucky on my patch. We have passengers who manage to navigate their way around the network just fine.

A quote I came across:
“Men are not angered by mere misfortune but by misfortune conceived as injury. And the sense of injury depends on the feeling that a legitimate claim has been denied.” ― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters

On a thread where I’m not sure how serious any of us are being, this wins it for me. Anyone who quotes C.S Lewis on this forum is someone I can work with.

Bravo that man.

You win the thread.
 

Western Sunset

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At the end of the day (or the wee small hours in this case), it all boils down to three things: communication, communication and, er, communication.

Communication with other TOCs and having plans for when these kinds of things happen. Unfortunately, track fatalities (of non-railway staff) seem to be on the increase. Obviously, these need to be dealt with both compassionately and expeditiously. Do TOCs talk to each other at times like these? If so, it appears the best option here would've been to terminate the train at Milton Keynes and send passengers forward to Euston on one of the (many) following Avanti services. As all the passengers were bound for Euston anyway (which was the next scheduled and final stop), that should've simplified things.

Communication with staff on the ground and on the train. Don't think that anyone argues that this didn't break down somewhere along the chain in this instance.

Communication with passengers. Again, little (or misleading - with the best of intentions) here. Hemel might be a small station or the centre of the universe for all I know, but for the detraining passengers, it was effectively the back of beyond.
 

WelshBluebird

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Yes, taking a TOC to court over £50ish is a waste of time. I lost £20ish quid due to a TOC’s failure the other week. I’m not suing them over it. I’ve learned to suck such things up, because I live in the real world.
And yet passengers get taken to court for a lot less. Unless you are claiming passengers should also not be taken to court over £50 or less?
If "insert TOC name here" is going to take me to court for 50p (as is on record at least one ToC trying), why shouldn't I take them to court for £50?
 

Horizon22

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Railway operations run 24/7 too. Not every location in every role, but control teams are 24/7.
At the end of the day (or the wee small hours in this case), it all boils down to three things: communication, communication and, er, communication.

Communication with other TOCs and having plans for when these kinds of things happen. Unfortunately, track fatalities (of non-railway staff) seem to be on the increase. Obviously, these need to be dealt with both compassionately and expeditiously. Do TOCs talk to each other at times like these? If so, it appears the best option here would've been to terminate the train at Milton Keynes and send passengers forward to Euston on one of the (many) following Avanti services. As all the passengers were bound for Euston anyway (which was the next scheduled and final stop), that should've simplified things.

Communication with staff on the ground and on the train. Don't think that anyone argues that this didn't break down somewhere along the chain in this instance.

Communication with passengers. Again, little (or misleading - with the best of intentions) here. Hemel might be a small station or the centre of the universe for all I know, but for the detraining passengers, it was effectively the back of beyond.
Exactly. And internal railway communication can be incredibly good but during disruption, far too often, very poor.
 
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61653 HTAFC

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Have we got to the bottom of why the Rail Replacement Bus never seemed to appear at Hemel Hempstead? If it was already 'in motion' I am unclear why the Train Manager of the terminating train was advising passengers to wait on the platform for a 'following train', thereby ensuring that they would all 'miss the bus' when it turned up. This seems to me to be point at which communication sadly broke down.

(My heart goes out to everyone involved. Once as a BR Station Manager on an out-of-hours check at an important junction the supervisor and I both missed an urgent teleprinter message instructing us to secure a 'last train at night' non-connection for some stranded boat passengers. A right mess-up and no 100% Delay Repay in those days. People are only human even if they mean well and try hard.)
Replacement Buses for some reason seem to completely flummox even the most competent station staff. Preston was always fun during the West Coast upgrade, and only last week there was another example: Huddersfield to Sheffield services were turning back at Lockwood due to an infrastructure issue, so a replacement minibus was hastily ordered to ferry people from Huddersfield. However, the staff at the gateline were directing passengers to the vacant bus stop on the road outside... meanwhile, staff outside the station were watching out for the bus, to direct it to the drop-off point at the other side of the main entrance. I (and a couple of others) almost missed this bus as a result.
 

ashkeba

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Ah yes, a highly amusing read. A thread where people have openly admitting to defrauding the railway and started squirming when the police came a-knocking. Another category of passenger we could do without!

What is the relevance of that to the OP’s situation, please?
There are also people who simply used the wrong form and claimed Delay Repay when it should have been another compensation form, then faced fraud accusation. So @robbeech was not being "antirail" to point out this real thing happening.

The relevance of it to the OP's situation is that someone abandoned on a station platform should not do what some have suggested and get a taxi and claim Delay Repay, else they may face a fraud accusation in a year or two.

Rich people can get a taxi at their own expense and "suck it up" as someone else suggested, but rich people probably are on Avanti not LNWR, or in cars.
 

43066

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Woe betide anyone who can’t it seems.

Absolutely. I don’t interact with passengers - it’s below my pay grade. I’m there to adeptly pilot that 125mph chariot you’re sat in. The only communication I expect when I’m at work is the guard asking me how I’d like my tea.

Speak to me the wrong way and I’ll have BTP sling you out of the station so quickly that your feet won’t touch the ground, and I’ll enjoy doing it.

The greatest joy of working for the railway in a safety critical role is how we aren’t expected to bow and scrape to anybody.

(Some of the above might be parody)

And yet passengers get taken to court for a lot less. Unless you are claiming passengers should also not be taken to court over £50 or less?
If "insert TOC name here" is going to take me to court for 50p (as is on record at least one ToC trying), why shouldn't I take them to court for £50?

If you lifted something from Tesco, wouldn’t you expect to be nicked?!

Can you see how committing a deliberate criminal offence is different to a TOC cocking up?
 

robbeech

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And yet passengers get taken to court for a lot less. Unless you are claiming passengers should also not be taken to court over £50 or less?
If "insert TOC name here" is going to take me to court for 50p (as is on record at least one ToC trying), why shouldn't I take them to court for £50?
Because as a passenger you are nothing but a stain on the perfect little railway.

The greatest joy of working for the railway in a safety critical role is how we aren’t expected to bow and scrape to anybody.
Yes it appears this is the view of the railway. I’m ok with that.
passengers eh, absolute dirt. What a hindrance. Line em up and have them shot.
 

43066

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Yes it appears this is the view of the railway. I’m ok with that.
passengers eh, absolute dirt. What a hindrance. Line em up and have them shot.

Sensible, affluent, pukka passengers who can afford the fares, please. That £500 per day overtime I command won’t pay itself, will it?!
 

43066

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Ah, that takes me back to my youth.

Aha. Good to know.

If you’re on reasonable money you could survive a couple of hours on a platform by ordering a cab, I’d suspect?!

In which case why are you complaining on here?!
 

Bletchleyite

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Aha. Good to know.

If you’re on reasonable money you could survive a couple of hours on a platform by ordering a cab, I’d suspect?!

In which case why are you complaining on here?!

I'd venture Uber have done the railway rather a favour here. Works just about everywhere (in terms of reasonably sized places in the SE, anyway - I've not tried it at Hemel but I expect it works there), no need for cold hard cash and no need to try and find a taxi number. I bet people are sharing Ubers far more quickly in disruption these days than before it was a thing.
 

robbeech

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Aha. Good to know.

If you’re on reasonable money you could survive a couple of hours on a platform by ordering a cab, I’d suspect?!

In which case why are you complaining on here?!
Because I have this terrible tendency to care about others. It’s a blessing and a curse.
 
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