West Midlands Trains duty of care: LNR passengers abandoned on platform

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair I don't think that would happen. I reckon the signaller would be on the blower to control to ask why there is a station full of cold passengers and when are they doing something about it.

That late at night I would have no qualms about using the phone to the box

I still think you'd be told, probably not very politely, to get lost. Interrupting people doing safety critical roles for a matter of inconvenience (serious inconvenience I'll give you, but not a safety-of-the-line matter) is not something that would be tolerated. It's like knocking on the door of the control tower because your Ryanair flight has been cancelled and all their staff have gone home.

I suspect if repeated too often BTP might show up.

The correct thing to use is the help point (information button) and I'm surprised the OP didn't.

 

[Robertj21a]

How quickly would BTP turn up if you used the Help Point to say that you were a young female who had just been attacked on the station platform?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How quickly would BTP turn up if you used the Help Point to say that you were a young female who had just been attacked on the station platform?

I'm not quite clear what the relevance of that is.

 

[Western Sunset]

I'm just wondering what the staff at Hemel did between the arrival of an unexpected train at 2156 and them going off duty at 2200?

 

[Clip]

I still think you'd be told, probably not very politely, to get lost. Interrupting people doing safety critical roles for a matter of inconvenience (serious inconvenience I'll give you, but not a safety-of-the-line matter) is not something that would be tolerated. It's like knocking on the door of the control tower because your Ryanair flight has been cancelled and all their staff have gone home.

I suspect if repeated too often BTP might show up.

The correct thing to use is the help point (information button) and I'm surprised the OP didn't.

Who said repeat doing it often? And even if the BTP turned up at least the passengers may have got some help to get them where they were going.

The op says that some people did use the help point and relayed the information to other passengers

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm just wondering what the staff at Hemel did between the arrival of an unexpected train at 2156 and them going off duty at 2200?

I suspect they had their coats on and were ready to lock up.

 

[LowLevel]

I'm just wondering what the staff at Hemel did between the arrival of an unexpected train at 2156 and them going off duty at 2200?

I don't think they're platform staff so probably finished sanitising the office, locked the door and went home?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think they're platform staff so probably finished sanitising the office, locked the door and went home?

Would probably just be one person in the booking office, possibly plus gateline staff (though at that time of night I'd expect that to be the private security guards rather than railway staff). No platform staff at Hemel (that I know of).

 

[Hadders]

To be fair when I last used a Help Point on a station platform, despite it connecting to NRE the person who answered the call dealt with the issue, contacted the TOC control and called me back via the Help Point.

 

[Robertj21a]

I'm not quite clear what the relevance of that is.

You referred to the BTP possibly turning up. I wondered how quickly they could arrive if it was an even more serious issue. In other words, are the BTP capable of getting to Hemel fairly quickly at that time of the evening?

 

[Bletchleyite]

You referred to the BTP possibly turning up. I wondered how quickly they could arrive if it was an even more serious issue. In other words, are the BTP capable of getting to Hemel fairly quickly at that time of the evening?

I don't know, but if anyone was attacked and had the means to do so I would suggest calling 999 for the local Plod as they can pretty certainly get there quicker.

 

[allotments]

I still think you'd be told, probably not very politely, to get lost. Interrupting people doing safety critical roles for a matter of inconvenience (serious inconvenience I'll give you, but not a safety-of-the-line matter) is not something that would be tolerated. It's like knocking on the door of the control tower because your Ryanair flight has been cancelled and all their staff have gone home.

I suspect if repeated too often BTP might show up.

The correct thing to use is the help point (information button) and I'm surprised the OP didn't.

Too patient and trusting maybe... with hindsight I'd have used the help point immediately set down seeing no next train coming. I'm averse to putting personnel under more pressure when they're already stretched after a disruption. I'd assumed railway knew we were there because railway put us there. Next time I'd do differently. What happened is a blow to confidence and trust in the actions of the railway actually. Are passengers to challenge requests to detrain on the basis of previous experience? I don't want this to lead there. Confidence needs to be restored.

 

[43066]

You're also making a number of other assumptions:
that the stranded passengers know where they are geographically
that they are aware of alternative train services, routes, and which stations can be used to access them
that they all have mobile phones
that they all know a local taxi company
that there are enough local taxis to cover the immediate one-off demand
that they've got a way of paying again for a service they've already paid for
that everyone is fit to wait for three hours on a cold platform - it wouldn't have been good for a diabetic for instance

99% of people have the ability to determine their location almost instantly using their phone, or failing that the ability to use a help point.

I’d suggest it isn’t sensible to use public transport at all if you have a severe health condition, lack a mobile phone, lack the ability to spend £10 if needed, and lack the ability to navigate around the rail network.

However what you fail to grasp in all of your posts is that the guard/driver on the train they were on have instructed them to leave the train and off it went back to wherever and they were told the following one would pick them up.

I have no doubt that the crew who de trained these passengers were acting in good faith, doing as instructed and passing on the information they had been given by control as part of the overall “master plan”. Clearly something went wrong after that point.

That's the issue at hand here and trying to justify it by basically saying that the passengers should've made their own way home at such a late time of an evening is rather silly if you ask me. And that's before I could go on to your claims that people with a disability shouldn't travel if they can't make their own way home which is,quite frankly , a horrific thing to say.

I have said that people who aren’t competent to navigate their way around the network unsupervised (including dealing with disruption) shouldn’t be travelling alone. That is clearly a safeguarding issue and would be a statement of the bleeding obvious to most people.

The railway does not have any control over who enters the network and the expectation is that people who are cannot travel solo are chaperoned, or that appropriate arrangements are made in advance.

 

[etr221]

Checking the Nationarail website, HML is manned until 2000.

I would expect Help points to respond - helpfully, which means reference to control when appropriate - at all times trains are running - which for LNWR/WMT would seem to be round the clock. Perhaps someone in the know could confirm?

I don't recall the OP saying that anyone had (definitely) used the help point, or about anything being passed back from it.

And in reference to my SPT comment earlier, I fully accept it is not the best option: but in the absence of anything better (helpful help point?), it might have to do...

Finally, another quote I recall, by a senior BR manager, on receiving letter of complaint after a not dissimilar problem: "What sort of business does this to its customers?"

 

[randyrippley]

99% of people have the ability to determine their location almost instantly using their phone, or failing that the ability to use a help point.

I’d suggest it isn’t sensible to use public transport at all if you have a severe health condition, lack a mobile phone, lack the ability to spend £10 if needed, and lack the ability to navigate around the rail network.

So you're effectively saying that if someone is blind, or wheelchair bound, elderly, diabetic, have cardiovascular problems, foreign, dyslexic or autistic (just to select a few of many) then they have no business being on that train.
As for "99% of people have the ability to determine their location almost instantly using their phone", that is absolute nonsense. A lot of people in the 60+ population still use simple phones, or have no phones at all. Your £10 is more likely to be £30. And unless you have an expert knowledge of the rail system, how do you know where to go by taxi? The next station may well be five miles away, but if you don't know that, and if you don't know that trains are running from it in the right direction then that station may as well be in the Sahara

 

[ivorytoast28]

I have said that people who aren’t competent to navigate their way around the network unsupervised (including dealing with disruption) shouldn’t be travelling alone. That is clearly a safeguarding issue and would be a statement of the bleeding obvious to most people.

The railway does not have any control over who enters the network and the expectation is that people who are cannot travel solo are chaperoned, or that appropriate arrangements are made in advance.

That appropriate arrangement is often dropping off/collecting from stations... Are you saying children/any other vulnerable person shouldn't be allowed to use the railway unaccompanied to get to school/relatives?

 

[robbeech]

I have said that people who aren’t competent to navigate their way around the network unsupervised (including dealing with disruption) shouldn’t be travelling alone. That is clearly a safeguarding issue and would be a statement of the bleeding obvious to most people.

I stand by my statement that this represents a majority of passengers on the railway. You are suggesting that a majority of rail users aren’t fit to be on the railway on their own because they cannot plan an alternative journey using a variety of methods to get them from an unknown location to potentially another unknown location. And you’re saying they’re unfit to be on the railway because they’ve listened to the railway telling them things and believed them.

I also stand by my earlier statement that is frankly teeming with irony that you claim the majority of rail users are unfit to be alone on the railway for not being able to re plan a journey when the whole reason for this thread existing is because the railway themselves, can’t plan a journey. It’s baffling how you find it unacceptable for a doctor or a teacher or a lawyer or a engineer or a cricket umpire or a chef or a funeral director to be on the train because they don’t have extensive knowledge of the country and the public transport network but it’s “just one of those things” when the people who are paid to plan journeys on the railway, have failed catastrophically to plan journeys on the railway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That appropriate arrangement is often dropping off/collecting from stations... Are you saying children/any other vulnerable person shouldn't be allowed to use the railway unaccompanied to get to school/relatives?

It is unwise for a vulnerable person to be using the railway without putting some mitigation measures in place in line with their vulnerability. When I was a kid it was that I knew my parents' BT Chargecard number off by heart, so even if I had lost everything I could make a call home, though these days it's probably more likely a mobile of some sort. The railway doesn't provide an "unaccompanied minors" service - that doesn't mean unaccompanied minors can't use it, they can of course and very often do - what it means is that the parents remain responsible for them and, other than minor things like not chucking them off in the middle of nowhere if they've fare dodged, don't really have a duty of care above that to an adult.

Other wise options are things like 20 quid hidden about their person for a taxi if needs be, or a GoHenry type card loaded with money for that situation.

Having said that, this situation is an example of terrible incident management.

As soon as Control knew that train would terminate there, they should have:
1. Arranged what was going to happen, be that a stop order, a RRB, taxis or whatever. Or if they couldn't quite arrange it yet, bear this in mind.
2. Communicated it to the guard of the terminating train so they could announce it (even if it was "we know about it, please wait on the station and an update will be announced by time X". If the situation hadn't changed by time X, *still announce* even if to say that the situation hasn't changed*)
3. Announced it periodically over the PA

If that wasn't going to be viable, they need more staff. Yes, I know "aviate, navigate, communicate" applies, as it were, but that little phrase doesn't mean you don't communicate, it just means you have to do the operational stuff first or the job stops.

My experience is that railway incident management is very poor and would do well to have some ITIL** type principles applied to it.

* This is one thing airports do reasonably well - they post "more information at <time>" on the board if there's a delay, and at that time do an announcement even if it's to say "no idea yet, we'll update again at time Y".

** IT Infrastructure Library - in practice this is stuff like incident management.

 

[Robertj21a]

So you're effectively saying that if someone is blind, or wheelchair bound, elderly, diabetic, have cardiovascular problems, foreign, dyslexic or autistic (just to select a few of many) then they have no business being on that train.
As for "99% of people have the ability to determine their location almost instantly using their phone", that is absolute nonsense. A lot of people in the 60+ population still use simple phones, or have no phones at all. Your £10 is more likely to be £30. And unless you have an expert knowledge of the rail system, how do you know where to go by taxi? The next station may well be five miles away, but if you don't know that, and if you don't know that trains are running from it in the right direction then that station may as well be in the Sahara

Well said, common sense at last.

 

[185]

I'm just wondering what the staff at Hemel did between the arrival of an unexpected train at 2156 and them going off duty at 2200?

i) Boarded a DeLorean, ii) activated a flux capacitor, iii) two on the buzzer and iv) rolled the clock back?

Been checking the previous posts now see where this "2200" error has come from. Hemel staffing is definately up to 8pm - 2000, almost two hours before this train arrived. Gatelines at many stations are generally unstaffed and left open from mid-evening. The only staff at Hemel (think they are mobile, so not on site at all times) will occasionally have been contract security staff in yellow viz-vests - this puts the ball back in the control's court.

 

[43096]

I’d suggest it isn’t sensible to use public transport at all if you have a severe health condition, lack a mobile phone, lack the ability to spend £10 if needed, and lack the ability to navigate around the rail network.

Wow. That is quite some statement.

 

[robbeech]

So you're effectively saying that if someone is blind, or wheelchair bound, elderly, diabetic, have cardiovascular problems, foreign, dyslexic or autistic (just to select a few of many) then they have no business being on that train.

That appropriate arrangement is often dropping off/collecting from stations... Are you saying children/any other vulnerable person shouldn't be allowed to use the railway unaccompanied to get to school/relatives?

The passenger, and those that look after them in some situations needs to do their bit of course. And I think those who have significant difficulty getting around should be extra aware of the potential dangers of severe disruption. Afterall, we have an abundance of proof here that the railway can’t always be relied upon to get things right. The difference is this particular member of the railway family is not talking about just those people, they’re talking about the majority of rail users who don’t have extensive knowledge of the public transport network, and/or can’t afford a taxi, and of course, wouldn’t know where to get a taxi to. That’s the majority of passengers, it’s not limited to a wheelchair user and a blind man, it’s most people on that train, and every train.

Wow. That is quite some statement.

It’s not exactly helping the railway improve their reputation that’s for sure.

 

[O L Leigh]

I'm a little surprised to see that the Railforums Patent Vulnerable Passenger (TM) is no longer pregnant. That's all I had left to cross off my Railforums Cliche Bingo card.

@43066 I can see the practical reasoning behind what you're saying, and from a practical perspective I don't entirely disagree with what you're saying. When dealing with vulnerable passengers it's not easy to know what needs they might have and railstaff dealing with a situation in the heat of the moment are not likely to be the best equipped to deal with them when they're dealing with many other people in a high-stress situation.

However, there is a circle that needs to be squared. The railways, as with all other areas of industry and daily interactions, are required to comply with the Equality Act. In some cases these requirements are straightforward and simple to meet, but others are going to be far more difficult. It is not permitted to simply say that people who cannot meet a given standard of independence cannot travel unassisted, and in the event that they do travel, the railway does have a responsibility for them under law. When things go wrong we cannot simply hide behind the passenger's physical or mental shortcomings.

The challenge is to work out how we meet those requirements even during times of disruption, and that is not a simple question to answer when we cannot predict when and where disruption may occur, how long it might go on for and what impact it will have on the service and on those using it. As I mentioned above, there are operational realities that will impact on how the railways react to disruptive events and these will inevitably have a knock-on effect to passengers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The railways, as with all other areas of industry and daily interactions, are required to comply with the Equality Act. In some cases these requirements are straightforward and simple to meet, but others are going to be far more difficult. It is not permitted to simply say that people who cannot meet a given standard of independence cannot travel unassisted

They don't explicitly say that, but de-facto that is how it is. The railway is required to provide reasonable adjustments. Providing chaperones (e.g. an airline-style accompanied minors service) is not reasonable. If your kid isn't up to going on the train on their own, don't send them on the train on their own.

Of course being a child isn't a disability, but the situation with some disabilities will be similar, which is recognised by the fact that a carer can accompany at a discounted rate on a Disabled Railcard. The railway generally isn't in a position to provide 1:1 chaperoning throughout a person's journey (though I would expect a higher standard in this sort of case if assistance has been booked, and think that is often not up to scratch) and it wouldn't be reasonable to suggest that it was.

 

[allotments]

Was your ticket just from Crewe to London Euston? As others have suggested as a minimum you'd be entitled to the value of this in compensation for a delay of more than two hours, and it sounds like you were rather more than two hours late.

I'm not here raising this issue to get a refund

I travelled Llandudno Junction to Slade Green with split ticket at Crewe and Euston.

 

[Robertj21a]

The passenger, and those that look after them in some situations needs to do their bit of course. And I think those who have significant difficulty getting around should be extra aware of the potential dangers of severe disruption. Afterall, we have an abundance of proof here that the railway can’t always be relied upon to get things right. The difference is this particular member of the railway family is not talking about just those people, they’re talking about the majority of rail users who don’t have extensive knowledge of the public transport network, and/or can’t afford a taxi, and of course, wouldn’t know where to get a taxi to. That’s the majority of passengers, it’s not limited to a wheelchair user and a blind man, it’s most people on that train, and every train.


It’s not exactly helping the railway improve their reputation that’s for sure.

Let's not forget that the author of most of the controversial comments on this thread is just one rail employee. I'm happy to say that the vast majority of rail staff have always appeared to be far more understanding and empathetic.
One rotten apple doesn't help their cause, but at least he's a minority.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not here raising this issue to get a refund

I travelled Llandudno Junction to Slade Green with split ticket at Crewe and Euston.

In my experience WMT are fine at coughing up the correct Delay Repay on split tickets - chuck them in and they will generally cough up without argument.

The passenger, and those that look after them in some situations needs to do their bit of course. And I think those who have significant difficulty getting around should be extra aware of the potential dangers of severe disruption. Afterall, we have an abundance of proof here that the railway can’t always be relied upon to get things right. The difference is this particular member of the railway family is not talking about just those people, they’re talking about the majority of rail users who don’t have extensive knowledge of the public transport network, and/or can’t afford a taxi, and of course, wouldn’t know where to get a taxi to. That’s the majority of passengers, it’s not limited to a wheelchair user and a blind man, it’s most people on that train, and every train.

Yes, I'd agree with that. The railway should not leave people stranded and uninformed. However, with regard to the issue of it being cold, it is prudent when travelling to take enough clothing that you won't be cold or soaked if you're stuck outside for a period of time as this does happen from time to time when rail travel is disrupted. Exactly the same for a car journey - you could break down.

 

[O L Leigh]

They don't explicitly say that, but de-facto that is how it is. The railway is required to provide reasonable adjustments. Providing chaperones (e.g. an airline-style accompanied minors service) is not reasonable. If your kid isn't up to going on the train on their own, don't send them on the train on their own.

Of course being a child isn't a disability, but the situation with some disabilities will be similar, which is recognised by the fact that a carer can accompany at a discounted rate on a Disabled Railcard. The railway generally isn't in a position to provide 1:1 chaperoning throughout a person's journey (though I would expect a higher standard in this sort of case if assistance has been booked, and think that is often not up to scratch) and it wouldn't be reasonable to suggest that it was.

I'm not suggesting that that the railway instates a chaperone service. My point is in response to the suggestion that certain people probably shouldn't be allowed to travel on the basis of their level of independence.

 

[Wolfie]

I still think you'd be told, probably not very politely, to get lost. Interrupting people doing safety critical roles for a matter of inconvenience (serious inconvenience I'll give you, but not a safety-of-the-line matter) is not something that would be tolerated. It's like knocking on the door of the control tower because your Ryanair flight has been cancelled and all their staff have gone home.

I suspect if repeated too often BTP might show up.

The correct thing to use is the help point (information button) and I'm surprised the OP didn't.

If BTP showed up at least they might have got the TOC to actually do something to sort out the mess that they created.

 

[43066]

Too patient and trusting maybe... with hindsight I'd have used the help point immediately set down seeing no next train coming. I'm averse to putting personnel under more pressure when they're already stretched after a disruption. I'd assumed railway knew we were there because railway put us there. Next time I'd do differently. What happened is a blow to confidence and trust in the actions of the railway actually. Are passengers to challenge requests to detrain on the basis of previous experience? I don't want this to lead there. Confidence needs to be restored.

Challenging a request to detrain isn’t a good idea and will potentially lead to an escalation, the police being called etc. making disruption exponentially worse.

Using the help point in this situation would be the exactly right thing to do. That’s what it’s there for! In hindsight it’s a pity this was not used sooner. I cannot believe people have suggested using the SPT. You might as well ring the coast guard for all the good that will do.

So you're effectively saying that if someone is blind, or wheelchair bound, elderly, diabetic, have cardiovascular problems, foreign, dyslexic or autistic (just to select a few of many) then they have no business being on that train.

No. That’s not what I’m saying.

have no business being on that train.
As for "99% of people have the ability to determine their location almost instantly using their phone", that is absolute nonsense. A lot of people in the 60+ population still use simple phones, or have no phones at all. Your £10 is more likely to be £30. And unless you have an expert knowledge of the rail system, how do you know where to go by taxi? The next station may well be five miles away, but if you don't know that, and if you don't know that trains are running from it in the right direction then that station may as well be in the Sahara

I’ve never been to Hemel Hempstead station in my life. It took all of five seconds to google map it and realise how close it is to St Albans, or to Chalfont and Latimer (I’ve never been there in my life either). The vast majority of people of all ages can read a station sign, use a help point, read a map, and work out how to get from A to B. Indeed most children are well able to do this.

If people are so vulnerable that they are unable to do this they shouldn’t be travelling alone and unaccompanied and the failing is with those who have caring responsibility to them for allowing this situation to arise in the first place. I say that as someone who has a lot of experience dealing with a family member in this category.

When things go wrong we cannot simply hide behind the passenger's physical or mental shortcomings.

To a point. The requirement AIUI is to make reasonable adjustments, and there is a level of impairment which cannot be catered for: we don’t allow unaccompanied minors or those who are heavily intoxicated to travel around unaccompanied either.