• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

What defines a heritage railway (as opposed to a fairground ride)

Status
Not open for further replies.

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
18,033
Location
Airedale
But a wristband is a form of railway ticketing.

What you mean is it is not a traditional form of railway ticketing. It seems you cant cope with that.
Ideal for an event à
1) offering unlimited travel/access, rather than one of many options (A-B, A-C...)
and/or
2) in times when a responsible employer might want to minimise close contact between passenger and ticket checker, especially if the latter is potentially vulnerable.

I shall suggest it for my railway's big events...
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
29,291
Location
Fenny Stratford
Ideal for an event à
1) offering unlimited travel/access, rather than one of many options (A-B, A-C...)
and/or
2) in times when a responsible employer might want to minimise close contact between passenger and ticket checker, especially if the latter is potentially vulnerable.

I shall suggest it for my railway's big events...
Very easy to show to the gaurd. Colour coded he knows instantly if you have paid. It works so well. The gaurd can look in a compartment of sweaty bashers and see who has paid at a glance.

I was at the svr gala and someone on the blue day tried it on with yellow pass. No messing. Not valid.

But fairground or something
 

TT-ONR-NRN

Established Member
Joined
30 Dec 2016
Messages
10,472
Location
Farnham
Very easy to show to the gaurd. Colour coded he knows instantly if you have paid. It works so well. The gaurd can look in a compartment of sweaty bashers and see who has paid at a glance.

I was at the svr gala and someone on the blue day tried it on with yellow pass. No messing. Not valid.

But fairground or something
:lol::lol::lol:

Joking aside, that sounds a rather sensible idea and would have been a fantastic contact-free method of checking for payment during the pandemic. Changing the colours up regularly prevents reusing them too.
 

GusB

Established Member
Associate Staff
Buses & Coaches
Joined
9 Jul 2016
Messages
6,595
Location
Elginshire
I can't believe this discussion is happening. Surely having a wristband means that you don't have to keep dipping into your wallet to fish out a ticket and that you can just raise your arm to prove that you've paid for the event.

Heritage railways are attractions in exactly the same way as theme parks and fairgrounds are. If you pay one entrance fee, it's sensible to have an easy way to indicate to staff that you're entitled to ride on the train/rollercoaster/carousel.
 

Alanko

Member
Joined
2 May 2019
Messages
641
Location
Somewhere between Waverley and Queen Street.
Heritage railways seem to often comprise a convoluted and semi-symbiotic relationship between multiple special interest groups. Every diesel loco belongs to a separate niche interest group, for example.

Also it seems you aren't a proper heritage railway unless you have a wildly ambitious plan to extend your line to a nearby market town. You have a retired civil engineer in your group who reckons that six lane motorway/river/other key national infrastructure in your way can be bridged for a few million quid (a cost easily defrayed through Driver for a Fiver experience days). You have a retired economist in your ranks too who has calculated that the railway would bring £1 billon annually to said market town.
 

John Luxton

Established Member
Joined
23 Nov 2014
Messages
1,657
Location
Liverpool
But a wristband is a form of railway ticketing.

What you mean is it is not a traditional form of railway ticketing. It seems you cant cope with that.
if it is such a good idea why are not other railways and TOCs using them?

Should it be rolled out across the rail network I will accept wrist bands - but you and I know that wristbands are associated with with fair grounds and theme parks.

You can't get around that fact.

I can't believe this discussion is happening. Surely having a wristband means that you don't have to keep dipping into your wallet to fish out a ticket and that you can just raise your arm to prove that you've paid for the event.

Heritage railways are attractions in exactly the same way as theme parks and fairgrounds are. If you pay one entrance fee, it's sensible to have an easy way to indicate to staff that you're entitled to ride on the train/rollercoaster/carousel.
Now whilst I accept that ticketing has and should move into the computer age, certain things should be left in the fairground.

Perhaps the acceptable alternative would be for people to be given a lanyard into which their day / event rover could be placed?

In fact I have seen people do this with their tickets at events.

So many people seem to wear lanyards these days for work id / security passes etc we take that for granted.
 

GusB

Established Member
Associate Staff
Buses & Coaches
Joined
9 Jul 2016
Messages
6,595
Location
Elginshire
if it is such a good idea why are not other railways and TOCs using them?

Should it be rolled out across the rail network I will accept wrist bands - but you and I know that wristbands are associated with with fair grounds and theme parks.

You can't get around that fact.


Now whilst I accept that ticketing has and should move into the computer age, certain things should be left in the fairground.

Perhaps the acceptable alternative would be for people to be given a lanyard into which their day / event rover could be placed?

In fact I have seen people do this with their tickets at events.

So many people seem to wear lanyards these days for work id / security passes etc we take that for granted.
Does it really matter whether it's round your wrist or round your neck? I dare say you could attach the wristband to a lanyard if you really wanted to. Good grief, is this really all you have to get upset about?
 

John Luxton

Established Member
Joined
23 Nov 2014
Messages
1,657
Location
Liverpool
Does it really matter whether it's round your wrist or round your neck? I dare say you could attach the wristband to a lanyard if you really wanted to. Good grief, is this really all you have to get upset about?
I am surprised at some of the attitudes being shown by some in this thread.

The thread was about defining a heritage railway as opposed to a fairground ride. If ticketing is fairground style then that tends to skew things towards a fairground ride.

One of the big things about conventional ticketing is that interaction between the guard / TTI.

It is almost part of the atmosphere of the operation. Often seeing families with children who probably go everywhere by car asking the children to show the tickets. Seen it umpteen times over the years.
 

Box

Member
Joined
10 Feb 2021
Messages
69
Location
Guildford
if it is such a good idea why are not other railways and TOCs using them?
The Mid-Hants used them at their latest steam gala; I was struck by what a good idea they were, convenient for the customer and much easier and more secure for ticket inspection
 

John Luxton

Established Member
Joined
23 Nov 2014
Messages
1,657
Location
Liverpool
The Mid-Hants used them at their latest steam gala; I was struck by what a good idea they were, convenient for the customer and much easier and more secure for ticket inspection
If they are more secure for ticket inspection why have they not become a universal method of issuing tickets across companies?
 

John Luxton

Established Member
Joined
23 Nov 2014
Messages
1,657
Location
Liverpool
I hope it was pink that would have riled you even more on a pointless matter
Red actually.

Prefer green or black!

But why should pink rile me?

Silly and pointless comment don't you think?

its the idea of wristbands not the colour of them that is the issue.
 

Runningaround

Member
Joined
24 Mar 2022
Messages
799
Red actually.

Prefer green or black!

But why should pink rile me?

Silly and pointless comment don't you think?

its the idea of wristbands not the colour of them that is the issue.
Keep on about it on a Rail forum in the heritage rail section and you'll get the idea picked up by other heritage railways who realise its a good idea and implement it further.:idea: Do you really care that much?
 

satisnek

Member
Joined
5 Sep 2014
Messages
889
Location
Kidderminster/Mercia Marina
The GWSR used wristbands for their diesel gala pre-COVID. I personally have nothing against them - they're part and parcel of the Crick Boat Show, Retro Tech UK and other non-railway interests of mine, but I can see some peoples' point that they're 'just not railway'. They are, however, another element in the inexorable slide from 'preserved railway' into if not exactly a fairground ride then a kind of linear theme park. Continuous welded rail and LED lighting are other noticeable aspects, and no doubt there will be other 21st century intrusions to come in the future. It's simply not possible to continue holding a railway line in a mid-20th century stasis - the Bluebell discovered this years ago. I'm not saying I endorse any of this but I can accept that 'nothing lasts forever'.
 
Last edited:

Runningaround

Member
Joined
24 Mar 2022
Messages
799
The GWSR used wristbands for their diesel gala pre-COVID. I personally have nothing against them - they're part and parcel of the Crick Boat Show, Retro Tech UK and other non-railway interests of mine, but I can see some peoples' point that they're 'just not railway'. They are, however, another element in the inexorable slide from 'preserved railway' into if not exactly a fairground ride then a kind of linear theme park. Continuous welded rail and LED lighting are other noticeable aspects, and no doubt there will be other 21st century intrusions to come in the future. It's simply not possible to continue holding a railway line in a mid-20th century stasis - the Bluebell discovered this years ago. I'm not saying I endorse any of this but I can accept that 'nothing lasts forever'.
You mean some of the professionally run lines have realised they are part of the holiday and are tourist attractions and like others have found wristbands a good idea. There is only one passenger that's noticed enough to bother going on a rant about it and in his postings has inadvertently promoted the idea.
 

John Luxton

Established Member
Joined
23 Nov 2014
Messages
1,657
Location
Liverpool
You mean some of the professionally run lines have realised they are part of the holiday and are tourist attractions and like others have found wristbands a good idea. There is only one passenger that's noticed enough to bother going on a rant about it and in his postings has inadvertently promoted the idea.
Is not the subject of this thread what defines a heritage railway as opposed to a fairground ride?

Fairgrounds do wristbands do they not?

I really can't see why my comment as caused such a stir. As I have said I am not against modern forms of ticketing be they mobile phone / Digi tickets or whatever but wristbands have fairground associations.

I really still can't see how people find exception to my comments I really thought most would agree.
 

12C

Member
Joined
21 Jul 2021
Messages
203
Location
Penrith
Is not the subject of this thread what defines a heritage railway as opposed to a fairground ride?

Fairgrounds do wristbands do they not?

When I posted the thread to be honest I was more getting at the question of how some railways within theme parks/fairgrounds were allowed to get away with less strict operating practices than heritage railways, and reasons why. I do see your point though, I’m personally not keen on wristbands as ticketing either and think getting a ‘proper’ ticket is part of the heritage experience, but I get that it’s a lot easier for staff during events etc.

Ironically barely any theme parks use wristbands any more, the vast majority are e ticket at the entrance gate. Even Blackpool Pleasure Beach has been e ticket for the last couple of years.
 

CBlue

Member
Joined
30 Mar 2020
Messages
799
Location
East Angular
When I posted the thread to be honest I was more getting at the question of how some railways within theme parks/fairgrounds were allowed to get away with less strict operating practices than heritage railways, and reasons why. I do see your point though, I’m personally not keen on wristbands as ticketing either and think getting a ‘proper’ ticket is part of the heritage experience, but I get that it’s a lot easier for staff during events etc.

Re tickets and so forth - yes, the heritage experience is nice, and someone will be along in a moment to argue that heritage railways should cater for the enthusiasts in that regard.

.....but the family days et cetera are what makes the money to allow the railway to continue operating, and if wristbands make running that easier then I honestly can't see the issue - and it doesn't warrant the toys being chucked across the nursery.
There's a small number of enthusiasts who often get very vocal about stuff like this right up until the point they're expected to actually pay for what is still a niche interest at the end of the day.
 

xotGD

Established Member
Joined
4 Feb 2017
Messages
6,086
I associate wrist bands with all-inclusive holidays. Will unlimited ale from the buffet car be included in the price of a day rover?
 

John Luxton

Established Member
Joined
23 Nov 2014
Messages
1,657
Location
Liverpool
When I posted the thread to be honest I was more getting at the question of how some railways within theme parks/fairgrounds were allowed to get away with less strict operating practices than heritage railways, and reasons why. I do see your point though, I’m personally not keen on wristbands as ticketing either and think getting a ‘proper’ ticket is part of the heritage experience, but I get that it’s a lot easier for staff during events etc.

Ironically barely any theme parks use wristbands any more, the vast majority are e ticket at the entrance gate. Even Blackpool Pleasure Beach has been e ticket for the last couple of years.
Thanks for the update on this. My only encounter with theme parks and fairs was at work when children were taken on school outings to various places. As I retired at the end of 2019 I have not been to any since - thus I had not realised that these places had moved on! - Thanks. To me the idea of people wearing a lanyard with a normal ticket in appears a reasonable solution at heritage events and given that lanyards are so common in the work place these days we probably would not notice and I have seen people doing this themselves. Perhaps sell a souvenir lanyard for each event (price included in the ticket price) I imagine some people would start collecting them?

There's a small number of enthusiasts who often get very vocal about stuff like this right up until the point they're expected to actually pay for what is still a niche interest at the end of the day.
I don't keep a record but over my lifetime I must have spent thousands of pounds travelling on heritage lines, making donations, paying quite a few subs including several life memberships and buying merchandise from bars, buffets and shops. By the time I left the VoR on Friday despite my grumbles about wristbands I had put a three figure sum in their till. Thus don't presume those that don't spend kick off most. I think I have more than contributed to the preservation scene in terms of my hard earned cash!
 
Last edited:

12C

Member
Joined
21 Jul 2021
Messages
203
Location
Penrith
It’s been my observation over the past few years, certainly before Covid, that heritage railways are heading in 2 distinct directions, either:

A. Acting as a ‘living museum’ in the same style as Beamish where the atmosphere of the past is faithfully recreated at stations (authentic signs/posters, gas lighting, coal fires etc), staff uniforms, working practices etc and serves a an educational experience of how railways operated in the past.

Or B, a pleasure ride maybe using heritage equipment but more embracing of modernity, building modern station buildings, signage, facilities, LED lights, modern working methods and modern ticketing (wristbands etc) where the main focus is for passengers to have a nice train trip, maybe with other ‘experiences’ thrown in, afternoon teas etc.

Whichever will be the most successful approach time will tell, there is probably room for both, but I doubt those that have moved towards more modern methods of working will return to how they were previously any time soon.
 
Last edited:

eldomtom2

On Moderation
Joined
6 Oct 2018
Messages
1,537
It’s been my observation over the past few years, certainly before Covid, that heritage railways are heading in 2 distinct directions, either:

A. Acting as a ‘living museum’ in the same style as Beamish where the atmosphere of the past is faithfully recreated at stations (authentic signs/posters, gas lighting, coal fires etc), staff uniforms, working practices etc and serves a an educational experience of how railways operated in the past.

Or B, a pleasure ride maybe using heritage equipment but more embracing of modernity, building modern station buildings, signage, facilities, LED lights, modern working methods and modern ticketing (wristbands etc) where the main focus is for passengers to have a nice train trip, maybe with other ‘experiences’ thrown in, afternoon teas etc.

Whichever will be the most successful approach time will tell, there is probably room for both, but I doubt those that have moved towards more modern methods of working will return to how they were previously any time soon.
I am not sure the division is as neat as that.
 

12C

Member
Joined
21 Jul 2021
Messages
203
Location
Penrith
I am not sure the division is as neat as that.
Maybe not, and of course some will sit somewhere in the middle, but there does seem to be a growing division in operating styles now and some lines may be stretching the term ‘heritage’ railway a little. Not exactly a fairground ride per se, but certainly a modern day leisure attraction. For example I recently visited the Ravenglass and Eskdale, set off from Dalegarth which has a relatively newly built station with modern facilities, including a big shop and cafe. Staff were largely in modern day uniforms, some coaches on the train were new built, signage was mainly modern graphics, signalling was a radio system, and tickets were online only. It was a good day out (excepting lingering covid nonsense), but apart from the steam loco hauling the train it didn’t feel very ‘heritage’.

As opposed to others such as the KWVR and Great Central who pay a lot of attention to detail to create the atmosphere of the past and feel more like a working museum at times.
 

eldomtom2

On Moderation
Joined
6 Oct 2018
Messages
1,537
Maybe not, and of course some will sit somewhere in the middle, but there does seem to be a growing division in operating styles now and some lines may be stretching the term ‘heritage’ railway a little. Not exactly a fairground ride per se, but certainly a modern day leisure attraction. For example I recently visited the Ravenglass and Eskdale, set off from Dalegarth which has a relatively newly built station with modern facilities, including a big shop and cafe. Staff were largely in modern day uniforms, some coaches on the train were new built, signage was mainly modern graphics, signalling was a radio system, and tickets were online only. It was a good day out (excepting lingering covid nonsense), but apart from the steam loco hauling the train it didn’t feel very ‘heritage’.

As opposed to others such as the KWVR and Great Central who pay a lot of attention to detail to create the atmosphere of the past and feel more like a working museum at times.
Narrow gauge railways have always had a different mentality to standard gauge lines, more willing to make new builds (partly, of course, because it's much cheaper for them) and more willing to have their own identity rather than recreating a past one. They still have plenty of historical preservation in their blood though generally.

The radio system on the R&ER is also hardly a new addition - it dates back to 1977!
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
29,291
Location
Fenny Stratford
I associate wrist bands with all-inclusive holidays. Will unlimited ale from the buffet car be included in the price of a day rover?
we can only hope that is the next step.

idea of people wearing a lanyard
Could be an issue when leaning out of the window to absorb the "clag" and "thrash" and "tonez". Also, lets be honest, if you were offered a lanyard you would be complaining about that. You want an Edmondson ticket and nothing else.

Personally, I really don't care how I prove my credentials. I am there for a ride out on the train. ( oh and hopefully a decent beer if not driving)

mobile phone / Digi tickets or whatever but wristbands have fairground associations.
Hard for your wristband to go flat or run our of battery.

One of the big things about conventional ticketing is that interaction between the guard / TTI.
Because, of course, when checking the wristbands the guard had no patter whatsoever. None. He just grunted several times and nodded.
he didn't in any way advise people where to sit to get off at certain stations, set out the opening times of the bars, the food offerings, discuss the intensive timetable or what our thoughts were about the locomotive offering. No, none of that. The wristband had completely robbed him of his ability to speak.

It is clear that unless preserved railways confirm exactly to your preconceptions you will strop. Could the issue be, perhaps, not with the railway?
 

John Luxton

Established Member
Joined
23 Nov 2014
Messages
1,657
Location
Liverpool
>Also, lets be honest, if you were offered a lanyard you would be complaining about that. You want an Edmondson ticket and nothing else.
>Personally, I really don't care how I prove my credentials. I am there for a ride out on the train. ( oh and hopefully a decent beer if not driving)
No I don't want an Edmonson ticket my issue is with wrist bands nothing else. I would far sooner have computer ticketing to be honest.

So you see I am not just an old "stick in the mud" - I am progressive. Wrist bands have negative fairground / theme park associations with me and don't forget the theme of this thread "

"What defines a heritage railway (as opposed to a fairground ride)"​


For me one of the things that defines a fairground ride is fairground style ticketing as much as does prebooked "Experiences".

Years ago I did a number of cruises with Fred Olsen and they sold lanyards for £1.50 for people to put their cabin key cards in. Railway staff often have various lanyards.

To me lanyards are a sensible idea.
 

Falcon1200

Established Member
Joined
14 Jun 2021
Messages
3,646
Location
Neilston, East Renfrewshire
If ticketing is fairground style then that tends to skew things towards a fairground ride.

I was slightly surprised (but not in the least bothered) to receive a wristband instead of a ticket at the SVR Steam Gala in April, but I then travelled on several standard gauge trains composed of 60-70 year old ex-main line coaches hauled by large and powerful steam locos. A million miles from a fairground ride, the ticketing system used did not, could not and will not alter that in any way.
 

E759

Member
Joined
7 Dec 2017
Messages
673
Location
Sussex
“Minor and heritage railways are 'lines of local interest', museum railways or tourist railways that preserve, recreate or simulate railways of the past; or demonstrate or operate historical or special types of motive power or rolling stock.”

From the ORR website. A definitive source.
 

JGurney

Member
Joined
10 Oct 2021
Messages
133
Location
Teddington
But a wristband is a form of railway ticketing.

What you mean is it is not a traditional form of railway ticketing. It seems you cant cope with that.
I'm not sure how a railway would cope with wristband tickets, unless there were no or very few possible different tickets which might be issued. Using different colours or combinations of colours is possible, but beyond that there would need to be printing on the wristband, which would be inconvenient for staff to read. The examples mentioned above are the Ravenglass and Eskdale and the SVR. Both seem to have a lot of different ticketing options, esp. the SVR as it offers through ticketing to 'main line' stations.

The last time I used the Ravenglass and Eskdale was when after staying in Wastdale my wife and I had walked to Eskdale Green and got the R&ER to Ravenglass, to change for Lancaster and then London. We got singles from Eskdale Green to Ravenglass. Can a series of colour-coded wristbands really cope with all the different single and return fares available between any two R&ER stations? Similarly last time I used the SVR was an occasion when I got a through single from Bridgenorth to Twickenham. I can't envisage a wristband working for those. I see the SVR example was for a gala. I'm not familiar with those, never having been to any. Does a gala involve all the ordinary fares being unavailable for that day? In that case, if there was in effect a flat fare, then a wristband would make more sense.
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
29,291
Location
Fenny Stratford
I'm not sure how a railway would cope with wristband tickets, unless there were no or very few possible different tickets which might be issued. Using different colours or combinations of colours is possible, but beyond that there would need to be printing on the wristband, which would be inconvenient for staff to read.
If used for a gala, as this example was, then there is really no problem as you are paying to be "in" for the day and it worked very well. I agree it isn't really a feasible option for a members return, on a Tuesday, between little snodldington and Boresfield.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top