• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

What is the Covid-19 Exit Strategy of 'Zero Covid' countries such as Hong Kong?

Status
Not open for further replies.

brad465

Established Member
Joined
11 Aug 2010
Messages
6,968
Location
Taunton or Kent
Djokovic lost.
Australian citizens lost.
Anyone who agrees with the outcome lost.
Anyone who disagrees with the outcome lost.
Anyone who has no opinion in this saga lost.

The Australian Government won.
Rupert Murdoch won.
Other media moguls won.
Other exploiters in society both in Australia and around the world won.

Regardless of whether Djokovic is in the wrong or not, and I'm not suggesting him getting his way in the circumstances would be any better, 99% of the world's population is worse off because this situation happened. While we've all been focused on this situation, powers that be that rely on divisions to exploit have found something else to get away with robbing people blind of money and freedoms, whether related to covid or not. Djokovic is probably neither the first nor last person to be affected by the rules for entering Australia in the way he has, but the Australian Government has no doubt loved using him as an example to boost their own popularity, and Rupert Murdoch who de facto runs Australia and other western countries like the UK and US has benefitted financially, and his ideal Government's position has been strengthened in the year of a federal election.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,160
The men's tournament will be significantly devalued without Djokovic and i am surprised the ATP organised the event given Australia's track record over the last two years.
Djokovic only has himself to blame. Rafa Nadal has it right when he says "I think if he wanted, he would be playing here in Australia without a problem. He made his own decisions, and everybody is free to take their own decisions, but then there are some consequences."

Djokovic really didn't help himself with all the publicity he's put out about being anti-vax and then getting his exemption - it's not like he was then going to slip quietly through immigration, was it? He's just drawn attention to himself.

So, zero sympathy and it's frankly very funny. Don't underestimate what Aussies think of it, either - they've had some pretty harsh restrictions for longer than much of the rest of the world, so they're not impressed when some self-important **** rocks up trying to game the system because he's anti-vax.
 

Simon11

Established Member
Joined
7 Nov 2010
Messages
1,335
Very interesting to read about the plan and pain of a zero covid policy in China. I wonder whether they will shift their strategy over the next few months, or whether they stick with it, so the government continues to appear like they have done a brilliant job.

 

hst43102

Member
Joined
28 May 2019
Messages
945
Location
Tyneside
Very interesting to read about the plan and pain of a zero covid policy in China. I wonder whether they will shift their strategy over the next few months, or whether they stick with it, so the government continues to appear like they have done a brilliant job.

They'll have to change the strategy at some point unless they want to stay locked in a never-ending cycle of lockdowns and isolation after entering the country...
 

nw1

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2013
Messages
6,865
Very interesting to read about the plan and pain of a zero covid policy in China. I wonder whether they will shift their strategy over the next few months, or whether they stick with it, so the government continues to appear like they have done a brilliant job.


"Since stricter rules came into force preventing people from leaving their homes to buy food,"

A monstrous regime, and a sign of utter control-freakery. They're so obsessed with eliminating Covid that they're prepared to deny people basic needs for survival. Time this zero-Covid flat-earther nonsense was properly debunked.

Djokovic only has himself to blame. Rafa Nadal has it right when he says "I think if he wanted, he would be playing here in Australia without a problem. He made his own decisions, and everybody is free to take their own decisions, but then there are some consequences."

Djokovic really didn't help himself with all the publicity he's put out about being anti-vax and then getting his exemption - it's not like he was then going to slip quietly through immigration, was it? He's just drawn attention to himself.

So, zero sympathy and it's frankly very funny. Don't underestimate what Aussies think of it, either - they've had some pretty harsh restrictions for longer than much of the rest of the world, so they're not impressed when some self-important **** rocks up trying to game the system because he's anti-vax.

I have to disagree here. The problem is not with Djokovic, but with Australia's excessively heavy-handed limitations on foreigners. Denying all unvaccinated foreigners entry, even if they have a negative test, just seems overly harsh to me.

Many people are saying "why should Djokovic get special treatment" but that's not the issue. The issue is "why should any unvaccinated foreigner be denied access to Australia, even if they have a negative test"?

If Scott Morrison hadn't imposed such harsh rules on foreigners, the whole controversy wouldn't even exist.

The Australian government needs to stop being so suspicious of foreigners, now that they have lots of Covid themselves. Covid has done more for the cause of xenophobia than Farage and his ilk ever did. What difference will it make to Australia's serious illness rate if a relatively small number of unvaccinated foreigners with a negative test visit the country? Extremely little, I suspect.
 
Last edited:

kristiang85

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2018
Messages
2,650
I have to disagree here. The problem is not with Djokovic, but with Australia's excessively heavy-handed limitations on foreigners. Denying all unvaccinated foreigners entry, even if they have a negative test, just seems overly harsh to me.

Many people are saying "why should Djokovic get special treatment" but that's not the issue. The issue is "why should any unvaccinated foreigner be denied access to Australia, even if they have a negative test"?

If Scott Morrison hadn't imposed such harsh rules on foreigners, the whole controversy wouldn't even exist.

The Australian government needs to stop being so suspicious of foreigners, now that they have lots of Covid themselves. Covid has done more for the cause of xenophobia than Farage and his ilk ever did. What difference will it make to Australia's serious illness rate if a relatively small number of unvaccinated foreigners with a negative test visit the country? Extremely little, I suspect.

Let's not forget he has an election coming up soon.

Djokovic is just being used for politics.
 

nw1

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2013
Messages
6,865
Indeed.

And emphasis on the "Liberal"....

It's an ironic name certainly, as it seems to be all three of fiscally conservative, socially conservative, and authoritarian. None of which are traits I would expect in a so called 'liberal' party...

But there are plenty of those, e.g. all those 'democratic republics' which ban elections...
 

MikeWM

Established Member
Joined
26 Mar 2010
Messages
4,382
Location
Ely
I see the Australians have now cancelled the visa of another tennis player who was *already* in the country under an 'exemption':

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-01-07/australian-open-renata-vorackova-visa-border-force/100745226
A female tennis player from the Czech Republic has had her Australian visa cancelled and is being detained in the same immigration hotel as Serbian star Novak Djokovic.

The ABC can reveal Renata Voráčová, who has already played in a warm-up tournament in Melbourne, was detained by Australian Border Force officials yesterday and taken to the Park Hotel in Carlton.

Voráčová is believed to have entered Australia last month with a vaccine exemption granted by Tennis Australia because she had recently contracted and recovered from COVID-19.

This is turning into rather an unpleasant mess.
 

kristiang85

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2018
Messages
2,650
It's an ironic name certainly, as it seems to be all of: fiscally conservative, socially conservative, and authoritarian. None of which are traits I would expect in a so called 'liberal' party...

It's along the same levels of irony as the "Democratic People's Republic of Korea"...
 

nw1

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2013
Messages
6,865
It's along the same levels of irony as the "Democratic People's Republic of Korea"...

Maybe not quite that far, but certainly a milder form of the same kind of irony (see later edit to my post..)

I see the Australians have now cancelled the visa of another tennis player who was *already* in the country under an 'exemption':

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-01-07/australian-open-renata-vorackova-visa-border-force/100745226


This is turning into rather an unpleasant mess.

Of course if you challenge Morrison on this case, informing him that recent infection reduces the chance of re-infection significantly, all he'll say is 'Rules are rules and must be obeyed'.
 
Last edited:

takno

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2016
Messages
5,037
This is turning into rather an unpleasant mess.
Certainly sounds like Tennis Australia might be paying out some quite big chunks of compensation to some pretty big names. Luckily this is about the only eilte sporting event they have, so there isn't a whole lot else for them to mess up.
 

brad465

Established Member
Joined
11 Aug 2010
Messages
6,968
Location
Taunton or Kent
I see the Australians have now cancelled the visa of another tennis player who was *already* in the country under an 'exemption':

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-01-07/australian-open-renata-vorackova-visa-border-force/100745226


This is turning into rather an unpleasant mess.
Maybe they should cancel a few more and then all the cancelled players can get together and host their own tournament somewhere else and see how it fares in comparison. Djokovic did this in Serbia in June 2020 so it's not out of the blue to do so again.
 

richw

Veteran Member
Joined
10 Jun 2010
Messages
11,213
Location
Liskeard
I see the Australians have now cancelled the visa of another tennis player who was *already* in the country under an 'exemption':

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-01-07/australian-open-renata-vorackova-visa-border-force/100745226


This is turning into rather an unpleasant mess.
The vaccine exemption for post infection is only valid for 60 or 90 days I believe so the exemption may have expired since arrival depending when she had covid. An exemption expiring would presumably expire the visa too
 

WelshBluebird

Established Member
Joined
14 Jan 2010
Messages
4,923
I thought Australia was held up by certain groups of people as a great example of how a country should be able to control its borders? Seems somewhat interesting that now they are exercising that control in a very public way, people don't like it so much!
As an aide, requiring a vaccine to be able to get a visa / enter a country is not new at all. Neither is a country deciding to deport you for lying on your visa application (from what I've read, the visa he applied for and got was regarding having a medical exemption to getting vaccinated, not a moral one).
 

takno

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2016
Messages
5,037
I thought Australia was held up by certain groups of people as a great example of how a country should be able to control its borders? Seems somewhat interesting that now they are exercising that control in a very public way, people don't like it so much!
As an aide, requiring a vaccine to be able to get a visa / enter a country is not new at all. Neither is a country deciding to deport you for lying on your visa application (from what I've read, the visa he applied for and got was regarding having a medical exemption to getting vaccinated, not a moral one).
It's perhaps worth repeating, as many times as is necessary, that the people you were disagreeing with 2 years ago on a completely different topic, aren't automatically the same people you are disagreeing with now on a completely different topic. Australia's borders policy has always been rather unpleasant, and I'd rather our own borders were more open.

Fundamentally though the problem is making a vaccination that doesn't offer any really effective level of actual immunity as a condition of entry. In essence his presence is making no meaningful difference to the health outcomes of anybody else at all. I don't think that's good policy on Australia's part.

Australia is, as many people have noted, a sovereign country with the ability to enforce its own border controls, however pointless and driven by short-term political grandstanding they are. It is also a country which on the face of it wishes to enjoy having international sports played on its soil. International sports largely get to decide where they hold their events, and usually have very good reason not to annoy their top players.

As it happens I think that they will probably get away with it, just because it's Djokovic they are doing it to, and he has a habit of coming across as completely insufferable at the best of times.
 

43066

Established Member
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
9,214
Location
London
I thought Australia was held up by certain groups of people as a great example of how a country should be able to control its borders? Seems somewhat interesting that now they are exercising that control in a very public way, people don't like it so much!

There’s nothing wrong with border control, so long as it’s done sensibly and proportionately. Of course your observation works both ways: I find it interesting how self styled liberal types, last seen standing around with “refugees welcome” posters, now apparently want strict border controls on the unclean and healthcare apartheid.

As an aide, requiring a vaccine to be able to get a visa / enter a country is not new at all. Neither is a country deciding to deport you for lying on your visa application (from what I've read, the visa he applied for and got was regarding having a medical exemption to getting vaccinated, not a moral one).

Requiring proof of a novel vaccine which is still only approved on an emergency basis in many jurisdictions is new (have the leading jabs been approved in Australia yet?). As is any country requiring a vaccine against a mild, highly communicable respiratory virus which is already in widespread circulation amongst its general population, unless you can think of any?

As it happens I think that they will probably get away with it, just because it's Djokovic they are doing it to, and he has a habit of coming across as completely insufferable at the best of times.

It’s funny isn’t it. I just can’t get as worked up about this as I should. In fact I half hope they do kick him out! If it was Federer on the other hand…
 

brad465

Established Member
Joined
11 Aug 2010
Messages
6,968
Location
Taunton or Kent
I can't access the text behind a paywall, but Fraser Nelson's latest Telegraph article seems to hit the spot by recognising Djokovic and the unvaccinated in general are being used for political gain, and in the case of Australia, a distraction from zero-covid failure:

Atennis star is an unlikely target for a politician, but these are hard times for Scott Morrison. His approval rating is plummeting, he needs a good fight and fate seems to have handed him the perfect enemy. The unvaccinated Novak Djokovic, arriving in Australia in apparent defiance of the law, embodies something everyone loves to hate: an international celebrity flouting rules that others must obey. Public opinion is inflamed and Morrison is getting stuck in. “Rules are rules,” he says.

He should know. His rules isolated Australia from the rest of the world for the better part of two years with a Zero Covid strategy that meant sitting tight, waiting for vaccines and then reopening. The flaw was obvious all along: what if vaccines never offered complete protection? At some point, they’d have to come out. So in recent months Morrison has been in slow retreat, moving Australia from a hermit kingdom to embracing a learn-to-live-with-it strategy. Politically, socially and clinically it has been an uncomfortable journey.
(If someone else can copy the text that would be useful)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

kristiang85

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2018
Messages
2,650
I can't access the text behind a paywall, but Fraser Nelson's latest Telegraph article seems to hit the spot by recognising Djokovic and the unvaccinated in general are being used for political gain, and in the case of Australia, a distraction from zero-covid failure:


(If someone else can copy the text that would be useful)

tennis star is an unlikely target for a politician, but these are hard times for Scott Morrison. His approval rating is plummeting, he needs a good fight and fate seems to have handed him the perfect enemy. The unvaccinated Novak Djokovic, arriving in Australia in apparent defiance of the law, embodies something everyone loves to hate: an international celebrity flouting rules that others must obey. Public opinion is inflamed and Morrison is getting stuck in. “Rules are rules,” he says.

He should know. His rules isolated Australia from the rest of the world for the better part of two years with a Zero Covid strategy that meant sitting tight, waiting for vaccines and then reopening. The flaw was obvious all along: what if vaccines never offered complete protection? At some point, they’d have to come out. So in recent months Morrison has been in slow retreat, moving Australia from a hermit kingdom to embracing a learn-to-live-with-it strategy. Politically, socially and clinically it has been an uncomfortable journey.

Advertisement



Omicron means Australia’s protection isn’t quite what it could have been. Ninety-two per cent of Australian over-16s are double jabbed, but it’s boosters that make the big difference against omicron and just 14 per cent of Aussies are triple jabbed. Morrison is reopening anyway, arguing that a far milder threat should mean a milder strategy. Sydney and Melbourne moved out of lockdown ten weeks ago and Australia’s borders are once again open to (jabbed) skilled migrants and students.

Meanwhile, the virus is running through Australia at a rate never seen before. More Covid cases have been recorded in the past eight days than in the previous two years. Its test-and-trace system is being overwhelmed, with isolation locking up so many people that Morrison had to relax the rules. But as cases surge, Melbourne’s reopening continues – after having spent more time locked down than any other city in the world. Hosting the Australian Open this month is the kind of reopening tonic it needs. Thrashing England at cricket is helping, too: Cricket Australia has been determined not to let Covid stop the Ashes.

Local politicians are adopting a new language. Dominic Perrottet, premiere of New South Wales, has said the hospitals are ready. Brad Hazzard, his health secretary, has declared that “we’re all going to get omicron”, a complete change in strategy. Morrison needs to call an election by May: he’s lagging in the polls and needs a success story. The omicron wave just might be over by then.

Emmanuel Macron also has an election coming up, and recently found cause to pick a fight with the unvaccinated. They are an easy target: easily caricatured as selfish refuseniks, whose obstinacy is dragging down the whole country. Macron this week promised to “emmerder” (a word best left untranslated) the unjabbed. Such tough language tends to go down well, and we can expect more of it in the coming months. For politicians standing for election, the unvaccinated are a perfect punching bag.

For all of his athletic prowess, Djokovic is quite the quack: against vaccination in principle and also believing that polluted water can be purified by the power of prayer (“scientists have proven”, he once said, “that molecules in water react to our emotions”). But it seems that he was one of several unvaccinated tennis players approved for a visa to Australia via a “blind review”: if so, it’s hard to see how he qualified for special treatment. It looks more like he’s been given special mistreatment, having his visa revoked because he presents an irresistible political target.

A few years ago, Djokovic’s health fads might have been seen as a quixotic but irrelevant personal choice. Now, vax-dodging is seen as a dangerous self-indulgence that wider society cannot afford. The world over, there’s a trend towards speaking about the unvaccinated as if they should suffer “consequences” and not have the same rights as others. Unjabbed Australians in the Northern Territory are being subjected to a four-day lockdown, for example, even though the jabbed-but-not-yet-boosted are perfectly capable of spreading omicron.

Are such policies about protecting society, or about the need to “emmerder” the new enemy within? Singapore says it won’t pay Covid medical bills for the unvaccinated. France wants to ban them from cafés, gyms and museums. Unvaccinated Canadians cannot board planes or trains. A fertility clinic in Glasgow is denying treatment to unjabbed women: more such strictures can be expected. The unjabbed take a risk: they are at least six times more likely to end up in intensive care through Covid. But it’s harder to argue (as some do) that this is a “pandemic of the unvaccinated”. Even now, the vaccinated account for just over half of Covid emergency admissions.

It’s easy to think of the unjabbed as millionaire tennis stars or middle-class conspiracy theorists like Piers Corbyn. But in Britain we have a clearer picture, being one of the very few countries to keep tabs. At the last count (December 29), they were – disproportionately – the poor, the young and ethnic minorities. Just over half of black under-30s, for example, are still not vaccinated, vs 27 per cent of whites. The poorest are three times as likely to be unjabbed as the richest.

But this is no surprise. For years studies have shown that those on the margins of society have been less likely to be vaccinated. From MMR to flu jabs, a vaccine gap has always existed and reflected socioeconomic status. Huge steps have been taken to try to close it but, for complicated reasons (often relating to trust in authority), it’s hard work. Hounding or insulting the unvaccinated – fining them, quarantining them or calling them “idiots” as Tony Blair does – is unlikely to succeed. But it certainly will succeed in alienation, deepening a sense of them and us.

As the world’s No 1 tennis player and the defending champion of the Australian Open, Djokovic can do pretty much what he wants with his life. But he’s a poor poster boy for the unvaccinated. To make them public enemies would be to make a bad situation far worse. Boris Johnson has said he’d like to “build back better” after Covid. Declining to join the global pile-on against the unvaccinated can be part of it. The vaccine gap has long presented a problem: now, perhaps, more than ever. But there are far better ways of solving it.

This is pretty much my feelings on it, too.
 

takno

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2016
Messages
5,037
This is pretty much my feelings on it, too.
Much as I hate agreeing with Fraser Nelson, that's a succinct and well-written summary of my feelings.

I wish everybody over 30 would go and get vaccinated because my view is that it's the smart thing to do. I wish everybody else would get vaccinated because I just want to get past this grim episode in global human existence. As a matter of principle and practicality however it absolutely horrifies me that governments are laughing as they blatantly, openly and deliberate break the spirit of medical autonomy, and cause mass inconvenience to everybody else in the process. I find the level of public support for the actions of these stupid politicians heartbreaking.

I've still yet to get my booster, and fully intended to in spite of it not feeling particularly relevant to my personal risk profile. I'm starting to feel so purposelessly bossed around though that it's getting harder and harder to scrounge up the motivation to do it.
 

Bikeman78

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2018
Messages
4,493
I wish everybody over 30 would go and get vaccinated because my view is that it's the smart thing to do. I wish everybody else would get vaccinated because I just want to get past this grim episode in global human existence.
That won't solve the problem though. Every time a new variant turns up the powers that be will decree that we need another booster. It only ends when enough people in the general public say sod it I've had enough. Fortunately I think we've started heading in that direction.
 

greyman42

Established Member
Joined
14 Aug 2017
Messages
4,894
Much as I hate agreeing with Fraser Nelson, that's a succinct and well-written summary of my feelings.

I wish everybody over 30 would go and get vaccinated because my view is that it's the smart thing to do. I wish everybody else would get vaccinated because I just want to get past this grim episode in global human existence. As a matter of principle and practicality however it absolutely horrifies me that governments are laughing as they blatantly, openly and deliberate break the spirit of medical autonomy, and cause mass inconvenience to everybody else in the process. I find the level of public support for the actions of these stupid politicians heartbreaking.

I've still yet to get my booster, and fully intended to in spite of it not feeling particularly relevant to my personal risk profile. I'm starting to feel so purposelessly bossed around though that it's getting harder and harder to scrounge up the motivation to do it.
If you need to motivate yourself to get a booster jab i don't know how you even get out of bed in the morning.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
38,818
Location
Yorks
To be fair to Australia, they pursued a very stringent zero COVID policy for two years, and now that that's been shown to be unsustainable, they have by and large bitten the bullet and opened up internally (and any countries priority should be opening up internally before opening up the borders).

As a result, they've had a chance to vaccinate people and their wave will be Omicron, so they have a chance of preserving their lower death rate.

I'm not saying that we could, or should have attempted the same (it would have been impossible) but given their circumstances, I don't think Australia has done badly (acknowledging that they've had some harsh lockdowns, as we all have).

The fact that they've unlocked so comprehensively internally suggests that they will do so unequivocally to the outside world when they feel ready.
 

43066

Established Member
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
9,214
Location
London
If you need to motivate yourself to get a booster jab i don't know how you even get out of bed in the morning.

Some people of a young age and low risk profile might well prefer to rely on their own immune systems from here on out (there’s a school of scientific thought that infection is preferable to vaccination for long term immune system effectiveness against the virus).

I share @takno ’s view on this, albeit I probably have even less motivation than he to get boosted (I have no intention of getting a booster, at this point). I got up very early indeed this morning. ;)
 

takno

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2016
Messages
5,037
If you need to motivate yourself to get a booster jab i don't know how you even get out of bed in the morning.
At this time of year it isn't trivial to do that either, but in general getting out of bed in the morning doesn't involve booking or walking to a test centre, there is no queuing involved, and there's absolutely no risk anybody will get uppity about masks. For what it's worth I don't run smiling through any chores, but getting a booster is below nipping to Argos in the list of things I want to do tomorrow, as well as being below it in the list of things that would be genuinely useful to me.

Also, almost everybody I've talked to who had AZ first time around has lost a day to the booster, so I don't want to do it shortly ahead of anything important.
 

birchesgreen

Established Member
Joined
16 Jun 2020
Messages
5,042
Location
Birmingham
Also, almost everybody I've talked to who had AZ first time around has lost a day to the booster, so I don't want to do it shortly ahead of anything important.
If its helps, i had AZ first time and had no reaction (apart from a sore arm for a day or so) from a Pfizer booster, neither did She who must be obeyed.
 

brad465

Established Member
Joined
11 Aug 2010
Messages
6,968
Location
Taunton or Kent
Australia reported 115,507 cases yesterday, the first time they've logged over 100k on a given day. To put this into context, it took them until early October 2021 to log that many throughout the entire pandemic. I suspect it won't be long before Australia log more cases on a given day than we do, especially as ours seem to be levelling off.
 

kristiang85

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2018
Messages
2,650
Australia reported 115,507 cases yesterday, the first time they've logged over 100k on a given day. To put this into context, it took them until early October 2021 to log that many throughout the entire pandemic. I suspect it won't be long before Australia log more cases on a given day than we do, especially as ours seem to be levelling off.

They also have half our population. So they are already effectively higher than us.
 

brad465

Established Member
Joined
11 Aug 2010
Messages
6,968
Location
Taunton or Kent
I was unsure where to put this given the spectrum of topics this situation can be linked to, so apologies if this thread isn't appropriate: Nigel Farage has come forward in support of Novak Djokovic in his current situation, to the point of actually travelling to Belgrade and publicising this:


In Belgrade with the Djokovic family. Waiting for the result of the visa hearing, watch this space.

While I don't entirely agree with the covid border rules Australia have in place, the irony meter has absolutely shattered with Farage's behaviour here. I'd love to know what he might have been smoking before this latest publicity stunt.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top