What made the West Midlands so special in terms of stock?

[pemma]

I didn't say otherwise. But consider this:

• Sheffield-Manchester Piccadilly (stopper) - you can get 158/170/185s from Sheffield to Manchester Piccadilly
• Chester-Manchester Piccadilly (via Northwich) - you can get 175s from Chester to Manchester Piccadilly
  

...by the same token I could point out that poor old LM only offer 350s from Crewe/ Birmingham to London (and ignore the fact that there's a faster Pendolino service). Yes, there are intermediate stations where the faster service doesn't stop, but I wouldn't pretend that all of these Northern services see many "end to end" passengers.

Comparing the two routes mentioned to LM's Crewe-Euston service. For a journey like Rugeley Trent Valley to London Euston you've got the option of travelling part way on a 350 and part way on a 390. For Delamere-Manchester you have to do over 80% of the journey on whichever rolling stock is running the Chester-Altrincham-Manchester service and for Hathersage-Manchester you could change trains at New Mills or Marple but you might not get better rolling stock.

Perhaps what the bigger issue with Northern rolling stock is that if you're making a journey like Southport to Bradford you can finish up getting Pacers for both legs. It's not an exclusive problem to Northern though doing Southport to Chester on Merseyrail gives you a longish journey on toilet-less stock with seating that isn't that comfortable.

 

[bnsf734]

Surely the reason the West Midlands has the Class 172 and 350/2 fleets is that when the Go Ahead/Keolis franchise bid that formed London Midland was formulated, there was a carrot in their bid that they would order and lease the Class 172 and 350/2 fleets. The franchise was awarded in 2007, before the DfT micromanagement culture had started.

The 350/1 fleet was already working on the Silverlink services that formed part of London Midland.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Why is a small densely populated area centered on the 20 miles surrounding Birmingham being compared with the entire country north of the Staffordshire/Cheshire border?

 

[pemma]

Why is a small densely populated area centered on the 20 miles surrounding Birmingham being compared with the entire country north of the Staffordshire/Cheshire border?

Since when have places like Hereford been only 20 miles from Birmingham? Herefordshire is part of the West Midlands region and served by modern London Midland trains (170s) described in the opening post.

 

[junglejames]

... which were built with ETS, so they could also be used for passenger work. "proper" freight locos (eg class 66) don't have such fripperies.

I was using this specific rolling stock to prove a point. That its swings and roundabouts, and you can always use examples to try and prove a point if you so need. The 'dirty freight loco' came from the article in Scotland about the dirty freight locos operating round the Fife Circle, and fitted perfectly into my point here.
Basically it was all said tongue in cheek.
Im sure i could find other examples to try and prove that oop North is better off, if i so desired.
Like how London has to suffer old hat LHCS and HSTs with big clumsy and difficult to operate slam doors, and spraying sewage at everybody enroute as they go past, all on long distance services, whilst oop north, short hops like between Manchester Piccadilly and Airport frequently see these marvellous new 185s, with lovely powerful engines.

See, Oop north does have it much better than London

 

[pemma]

short hops like between Manchester Piccadilly and Airport frequently see these marvellous new 185s, with lovely powerful engines.

See, Oop north does have it much better than London

Standard pattern departures from Manchester Airport:

xx:01 Southport via Bolton - class 142 (150 if you're lucky)
xx:04 Middlesbrough - class 185
xx:12 Crewe - class 323
xx:17 Manchester Piccadilly - class 323
xx:29 Blackpool North - class 185
xx:38 Liverpool Lime Street - class 156 (150 if you're unlucky)
xx:43 Cleethorpes - class 185 (2 car 170 if you're unlucky)
xx:58 Scotland - class 185 or 350

If you want to make a like-for-like comparison many of the TPE 185 services from Manchester Airport are longer than the Southeastern 395 services.

 

[junglejames]

Why is a small densely populated area centered on the 20 miles surrounding Birmingham being compared with the entire country north of the Staffordshire/Cheshire border?

Probably to make sure their point is always right. To help them try and prove that the north is awful and everywhere else is amazing.
In reality, its a simple case of 'I dont like pacers', but it makes people feel better if they can make out they are hard done by .
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Standard pattern departures from Manchester Airport:

xx:01 Southport via Bolton - class 142 (150 if you're lucky)
xx:04 Middlesbrough - class 185
xx:12 Crewe - class 323
xx:17 Manchester Piccadilly - class 323
xx:29 Blackpool North - class 185
xx:38 Liverpool Lime Street - class 156 (150 if you're unlucky)
xx:43 Cleethorpes - class 185 (2 car 170 if you're unlucky)
xx:58 Scotland - class 185 or 350

If you want to make a like-for-like comparison many of the TPE 185 services from Manchester Airport are longer than the Southeastern 395 services.

You seem to be losing the point of my posts.
Im purely getting at the fact that you can always make your area hard done by if you really want. Somebody is making out as if the north is hard done by, using examples that arent exactly fair. Im showing that I can make the north sound luxury by doing exactly the same thing. Im showing that it isnt always as it seems.

Youve done a good job backing my latest example up though. Never realised there were so many 185s to the airport. I tell you what, im glad i dont live in London, because they really do have it bad.

 

[pemma]

Probably to make sure their point is always right. To help them try and prove that the north is awful and everywhere else is amazing.
In reality, its a simple case of 'I dont like pacers', but it makes people feel better if they can make out they are hard done by .

Ignoring the micro fleet of Sprinters in the LM fleet they have a very modern fleet which runs regional and local services in London, the Homes Counties and West Midlands and stretching just outside those areas to cover Crewe and the Crewe-Liverpool line.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You seem to be losing the point of my posts.
Im purely getting at the fact that you can always make your area hard done by if you really want. Somebody is making out as if the north is hard done by, using examples that arent exactly fair. Im showing that I can make the north sound luxury by doing exactly the same thing. Im showing that it isnt always as it seems.

I've not missed the point you're making. I realise people comparing Northern to LM isn't comparing like with like and comparing both Northern and TPE routes within a certain area would be a better comparison.

However, whichever way you look at it if LM operates a service you get a nice modern train unless it's Bedford-Bletchley (or you travel on a 153 attached to a Turbostar.) Most other franchises with that proportion of modern stock either only cover regional/Intercity services, I think Southeastern are the only operator with local services who have all post-1990 stock and LM aren't behind.

Youve done a good job backing my latest example up though. Never realised there were so many 185s to the airport. I tell you what, im glad i dont live in London, because they really do have it bad.

Actually I've just realised I looked at timings for the next 2 hours when posting. Most of the day there's also a Newcastle departure from Manchester Airport.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Nice to see that the London commuter belt isn't the only area deemed to have special status when it comes to new stock. Especially as prior to the introduction of the new EMUs on SWT, SouthEastern and Southern (2004), most services were run by some of the oldest stock on the network.

I seem to recall that the X city line was also in a decrepit state prior to electrification, and the 323s were part of the deal.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

The local trains running the tracks around Birmingham are a mix of 350's, 323's, 172's, 170's, and maybe the odd 150.

Whilst I appreciate that only two of these classes are new(ish) stock, why was the West Midlands favoured for new stock instead of the much larger mix of conurbations along the M62 corridor?

If it's down to government subsidies, why is Birmingham less needy of a subsidy than Manchester or Leeds?

It seems to me that rolling stock up here is getting worse rather than better. I appreciate that ATW, EMT and FGW are in 'similar' positions, but for the largest centre of population outside the South East, our infrastructure is appalling.

It seems to be down to local government to pull the strings as I see it.

Newcastle has a metro, Sheffield and Nottingham tram systems and Manchester Metro has seen vast sums in public transport investment.

These amounts of money have been gained by the efforts of your local governing bodies and business groups. If you feel that the money could be spent better on other transport projects you need to engage with those authorities. Looking at what others get is not the answer.

We have our own issues in the West Midlands which as an officer of my local rail user group I hope I am able to influence.

If you have issues please look locally for the solutions.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Well - Great Northern inner commuters have 1976 class 313 units for the journey - !

The LM purchase of the 17x fleet was their own interpretation for the franchise , it probably helped them win it , so just as well they did and therefore allowed the cascade of the large 15x fleet out to other areas.

Not just a simplistic - "the West Midlands deserves better than the North" - though growth down / up there has been excellent. I believe the WM percentage of public transport journeys is comparable to much of the better placed Continental cities we often covet for their integrated transport systems.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Just for clarification LM have not purchased any stock, they lease it. First Group own a few I understand but the TOCs generally hire the stuff in.

 

[junglejames]

I've not missed the point you're making. I realise people comparing Northern to LM isn't comparing like with like and comparing both Northern and TPE routes within a certain area would be a better comparison.

However, whichever way you look at it if LM operates a service you get a nice modern train unless it's Bedford-Bletchley (or you travel on a 153 attached to a Turbostar.)

Hence why i ignored LM and took the Birmingham area as a whole. Then i could include the big dirty freight locos and the ancient carriages.
See, the North definitely has it good.

Actually I've just realised I looked at timings for the next 2 hours when posting. Most of the day there's also a Newcastle departure from Manchester Airport.

What, another one? Crikey, the north is swimming in lovely powerful trains, and on such short journeys as Manchester Aiport to Manchester Piccadilly.
My local station has to put up with 375s. They are older than 185s. Its just not fair that the north always gets the newest bestest (child talk on purpose) rolling stock, and us down south have older trains.

 

[pemma]

Then i could include the big dirty freight locos and the ancient carriages.

The newest freight locos that appear up North are the class 70s which run from the Southampton to Trafford Park via the West Midlands. Poor West Midlands having to put up with locomotives built in 2008. :cry:

What, another one? Crikey, the north is swimming in lovely powerful trains, and on such short journeys as Manchester Aiport to Manchester Piccadilly.

But the stock's average age on Airport-Piccadilly is older than what runs between Birmingham International and Birmingham Airport. Those Brummies have it good.

My local station has to put up with 375s. They are older than 185s. Its just not fair that the north always gets the newest bestest (child talk on purpose) rolling stock, and us down south have older trains.

Ah but due to EMU's longer shelf life the 375s are effectively 5 years younger than the 185s despite being introduced 5 years later.

 

[Julian Hornby]

Some old units are extremely reliable in terms of running standards, they just need to be refurbishes to a good standard and cleaned. I'll admit, the Pacers Northern use need to be gotten rid of because they're not reliable and not crash worthy.

 

[tbtc]

It seems to be down to local government to pull the strings as I see it.

Newcastle has a metro, Sheffield and Nottingham tram systems and Manchester Metro has seen vast sums in public transport investment.

These amounts of money have been gained by the efforts of your local governing bodies and business groups. If you feel that the money could be spent better on other transport projects you need to engage with those authorities. Looking at what others get is not the answer

Agreed.

But we seem to have a lot of these "north is hard done by" threads - selectively quoting things to try to prove a point etc.

For example, whilst this thread sounds like its about "the North" versus "the West Midlands", "the North" only seems represented in terms of Northern services.

I don't honestly think that a three coach 158 on York - Calder Valley - Blackpool or Leeds - Calder Valley - Manchester Victoria (both raised as examples of poor stock) is any worse than a two coach 170 on Manchester - Hull or Manchester Airport - Cleethorpes, for example.

Also, I can see that the apparently poor number of modern DMUs on local services around Greater Manchester may have something to do with the seventysomething M5000s purchased in the last five years (with the fleet rising to over a hundred by 2016?)? See, I can do selective data quoting too

The West Midlands have only sixteen trams, all from the 1990s - hardly surprising that there's more funds there to invest in DMUs?

Similarly it seems fair that Nottingham is getting a couple of dozen new trams in the next year or two when you consider that the local train services are mainly in the hands of 1980s DMUs.

Maybe there's more of a case for complaint in places which have Pacers etc but no shiny trams to show for it (Bristol, Cardiff etc)?

 

[59CosG95]

Maybe there's more of a case for complaint in places which have Pacers etc but no shiny trams to show for it (Bristol, Cardiff etc)?

Actually-the Pacers have moved from Bristol now. All 7 143s are in Exeter, working local and (god forbid) regional services to Okehampton and other far-flung places. Hopefully they can be sent north or (even better) scrapped following TV wiring, which means that the Networkers can go to Bristol, sending sprinters to Exeter and beyond.

 

[pemma]

The West Midlands have only sixteen trams, all from the 1990s - hardly surprising that there's more funds there to invest in DMUs?

But they're just about to introduce 20 new trams ordered from CAF at the cost of £40m, which are to replace the 16 you mention some of which are under 15 years old. The Germans (who still use trams from the 1970s in some cities) must be thinking how wasteful the West Midlands is. The T69s were also ordered after the original DDA requirements for transport vehicles were specified, the T68s were ordered before (the small fleet of T68-As came after)

One thing to note is for Manchester Metrolink a lot of trams are in lieu of new heavy rail rolling stock e.g. Altrincham-Sale-Manchester, Manchester-Bury and Manchester-Oldham-Rochdale.

 

[Boothby97]

The newest freight locos that appear up North are the class 70s which run from the Southampton to Trafford Park via the West Midlands. Poor West Midlands having to put up with locomotives built in 2008. :cry:

The Colas Rail 70s (except 70801) were built during 2013, and regularly work the Westbury-Bescot departmental workings.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Agreed.

But we seem to have a lot of these "north is hard done by" threads - selectively quoting things to try to prove a point etc.

For example, whilst this thread sounds like its about "the North" versus "the West Midlands", "the North" only seems represented in terms of Northern services.

I don't honestly think that a three coach 158 on York - Calder Valley - Blackpool or Leeds - Calder Valley - Manchester Victoria (both raised as examples of poor stock) is any worse than a two coach 170 on Manchester - Hull or Manchester Airport - Cleethorpes, for example.

Also, I can see that the apparently poor number of modern DMUs on local services around Greater Manchester may have something to do with the seventysomething M5000s purchased in the last five years (with the fleet rising to over a hundred by 2016?)? See, I can do selective data quoting too

The West Midlands have only sixteen trams, all from the 1990s - hardly surprising that there's more funds there to invest in DMUs?

Similarly it seems fair that Nottingham is getting a couple of dozen new trams in the next year or two when you consider that the local train services are mainly in the hands of 1980s DMUs.

Maybe there's more of a case for complaint in places which have Pacers etc but no shiny trams to show for it (Bristol, Cardiff etc)?

Very good point which actually had not occurred to me before. Certainly worth remembering regarding Manchester.