What population database, if any, can conductors/RPIs check?

[Jaden_emerald]

I was under the impression that you in the UK lack a national population register, whereby, when getting a penalty/UFN, just giving a random name and an existing address+matching postcode will do.

However, I've read on here about conductors/RPIs checking the details against records, just as in my country, which has a national population register, with the details of any resident aged 15 or over being available free of charge online; hence a fare evader with no ID would have to give RPIs the citizen's ID number and other details of an actual person (with verification questions usually being asked, e.g. what floor they live on).

Is there really something similar in the UK that can be checked onboard trains by conductors/RPIs (only the actual inspection counts, not any subsequent investigations)

Note I have nothing to gain personally from this, as whilst admittedly a "grey hat" with public transport, I'm neither a UK citizen nor resident either way. Still would be interesting to know how it works over there.

 

[jfollows]

However, I've read on here about conductors/RPIs checking the details against records, just as in my country, which has a national population register, with the details of any resident aged 15 or over being available free of charge online; hence a fare evader with no ID would have to give RPIs the citizen's ID number and other details of an actual person (with verification questions usually being asked, e.g. what floor they live on)

I can't answer your question, sorry, but what is "your country" please?

 

[matt_world2004]

Electorial register /Credit reference agencies.

 

[Undiscovered]

We, as guards on my TOC, do have access to a database to check details when issuing UPFNs.

The reality, on my route, is that patchy phone signal and frequent stops make it nigh on impossible to do this and our company policy is to avoid conflict.
Instead, a detailed description of the passenger is entered into an online form and logged centrally. RPIs look at this and then decide where and when to 'sting' trains and stations with BTP. They have the time and powers to sort it, where as I don't. They can pull CCTV too, I am led to believe, so if they catch someone who matches a number of solid descriptions, they can lay fare evasion charges, though this is rare.

Generally, people do pay when challenged. If they're particularly belligerent, there are a number of staffed stations I can call ahead to and arrange for them to be removed, which I have done in the past. The days of chucking folks off at remote locations are gone as it's a grey area on breach of duty of care, passenger safety etc.

 

[Haywain]

In simple terms, an RPI would call an agency who access the electoral register to confirm if a name and address is correct. The electoral register is an annual listing of all those people who are eligible to vote in national and local elections, but can be incomplete when people have moved to a new address, or missing some people who have failed to be included on the register for various reasons. There would be no follow up questions to confirm the name and address given are those of the person being asked as the register does not contain any additional information.

 

[WesternLancer]

I was under the impression that you in the UK lack a national population register, whereby, when getting a penalty/UFN, just giving a random name and an existing address+matching postcode will do.

However, I've read on here about conductors/RPIs checking the details against records, just as in my country, which has a national population register, with the details of any resident aged 15 or over being available free of charge online; hence a fare evader with no ID would have to give RPIs the citizen's ID number and other details of an actual person (with verification questions usually being asked, e.g. what floor they live on).

Is there really something similar in the UK that can be checked onboard trains by conductors/RPIs (only the actual inspection counts, not any subsequent investigations)

Note I have nothing to gain personally from this, as whilst admittedly a "grey hat" with public transport, I'm neither a UK citizen nor resident either way. Still would be interesting to know how it works over there.

To add to the answers above, yes no database, and the Electoral Register is a bit of a weak tool as 'the kind of people' likely to be deliberate fare evaders are also likely to not bother joining the Elec Register - tho that is a stereotype and of course many are and many who you might expect to be are not on it - since the end of 'household registration' 3 or 4 years ago this has got worse - that allowed a single person in a household to register everyone in said household to vote - in fact I think it obliged them to do so (so an extrem example was that a University, for example, could register everyone who lived in their residences as they were deemed to be the head of household in that scenario), now you must register yourself and many don't bother - it's an offence not to register to vote but I have never heard of that offence being prosecuted.

No requirement to carry ID in the UK. Certainly used to be the case that a letter to you with your name and address on it was considered acceptable by many organisations if they did have the bare faced cheek not to believe the details you gave.

Of course as surely everyone around the world knows, Brits never lie and if you tell a chap your name and address, well he knows full well you can be believed...
An Englishman's word is his bond, after all. I assume this is why James Bond always introduces himself with his real name.

 

[Western Sunset]

Do they have access to the full Electoral Register or just the edited Open Register?

 

[MikeWh]

Do they have access to the full Electoral Register or just the edited Open Register?

Full

 

[RPI]

Ar GWR RPI'S and Ticket Examiners have access to "Revenue Shield Mobile" which is a secure app and each individual has their own PIN for, this is a database ultimately from the electoral register alongside a separate database from within GWR based on previous encounters from an address/person. There's many tools that we use too, social media profiles being one as this is information in the public domain

Just to add to the above, Gatelines and guards still use a call centre to check details for UFN/TIR, Google is also a good friend as quite often people we have to deal with may have appeared in various news articles in their past

 

[AlbertBeale]

Full

I thought the only bodies, as specified in data protection law, able to access the full register [other than those standing for election, and political parties etc, who can have a copy; and other fellow-electors and researchers, but only inspecting it on a limited basis, not being able to take a full copy, in those cases] were regulated credit reference agencies.

 

[krus_aragon]

I thought the only bodies, as specified in data protection law, able to access the full register [other than those standing for election, and political parties etc, who can have a copy; and other fellow-electors and researchers, but only inspecting it on a limited basis, not being able to take a full copy, in those cases] were regulated credit reference agencies.

I'm pretty sure that "prevention and detection of crime" is a reason for exemption from GDPR regulations. So the credit reference agency or other body will be allowing train companies to query the database through them on that exemption.

 

[island]

I thought the only bodies, as specified in data protection law, able to access the full register [other than those standing for election, and political parties etc, who can have a copy; and other fellow-electors and researchers, but only inspecting it on a limited basis, not being able to take a full copy, in those cases] were regulated credit reference agencies.

That is correct. And the address verification system involves contacting a credit reference agency. Credit reference agencies, despite the name, are not limited to using the database in connection with credit enquiries.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

That is correct. And the address verification system involves contacting a credit reference agency. Credit reference agencies, despite the name, are not limited to using the database in connection with credit enquiries.

It's also worth noting that credit reference agencies don't just rely on the electoral register: if you check what they hold about you, they record all your credit card applications, bank accounts, applications for insurance, applications for mobile phone contracts and so on for the last six years. So even if you are not on the electoral register, there's a good chance that they will have pretty good evidence of the existence of your name and address. And while I don't know this, I can easily imagine them providing a service to the railway's where they can confirm a name and address online/over the phone without telling the railway the personal information that they have used to make that confirmation.

 

[35B]

It's also worth noting that credit reference agencies don't just rely on the electoral register: if you check what they hold about you, they record all your credit card applications, bank accounts, applications for insurance, applications for mobile phone contracts and so on for the last six years. So even if you are not on the electoral register, there's a good chance that they will have pretty good evidence of the existence of your name and address. And while I don't know this, I can easily imagine them providing a service to the railway's where they can confirm a name and address online/over the phone without telling the railway the personal information that they have used to make that confirmation.

And there are data brokers in the market who will "enrich" that data using a variety of sources.

 

[Jaden_emerald]

I can't answer your question, sorry, but what is "your country" please?

I'm from Finland (Åland to be exact)

 

[jfollows]

I'm from Finland (Åland to be exact)

Thank you, that's interesting to know

 

[87 027]

Welcome to the forum. You are right that we do not have a central citizen register. People working in the UK will have a National Insurance number (NINO), and workers from overseas should also apply for one. It is a little known fact that the NINO is actually first generated shortly after a child's birth when an application for Child Benefit is made, although it is not actually notified to the person until they approach 16 years of age. But the law is clear that the NINO can only be used for tax and social security purposes. Anyone who has been treated by the National Health Service will in addition have an NHS number. Whilst the NHS record should also indicate a person's nationality/immigration status, it does not contain a link back to the NINO. Additionally many people in the UK of adult age will hold a passport and driving licence which also have their own reference numbers. There are some point-to-point lookups between these systems e,g. when renewing your driving licence you can use your passport photograph.

Out of curiosity I checked my full credit record on Experian yesterday and noted that whilst it had my name and address, previous address, and names of other people at my address, it did not have any of the reference numbers referred to above.

Whether we should have a central citizen register in the UK is an interesting question and probably worthy of a separate topic in its own right.

 

[MikeWh]

It is a little known fact that the NINO is actually first generated shortly after a child's birth when an application for Child Benefit is made, although it is not actually notified to the person until they approach 16 years of age.

The number will be communicated if a claim for disability living allowance is made for the child. It calls it the reference number for that claim but it's obviously in NINO format and is the same as is sent to the child at 16.

 

[Kilopylae]

The days of chucking folks off at remote locations are gone as it's a grey area on breach of duty of care, passenger safety etc.

Seems a shame, really....

 

[RyanOPlasty]

It is a little known fact that the NINO is actually first generated shortly after a child's birth when an application for Child Benefit is made, although it is not actually notified to the person until they approach 16 years of age.

I suspect they are generated before birth, at least for children after the first. My four children, born seven years apart have consecutive NINOs, only the last digit and check letter are different.

 

[LowLevel]

The escalation to be borne in mind is that in England and Wales in particular if the staff in question aren't happy with the details given, the attendance of a police constable if available becomes the next step - they can check the Police National Computer and if they aren't happy then the final escalation is to be arrested and locked in a cell until a magistrate in court is available to deal with the matter.

Thus giving false details is in itself a calculated risk and is also a separate criminal offence.

I've had relatively minor issues escalate as an inspector before and the timely appearance of a police constable has resulted in someone being quite unexpectedly arrested on the spot, usually because they're thick enough to try and evade a train fare while being subsequently wanted for something far more interesting.

 

[Kilopylae]

The escalation to be borne in mind is that in England and Wales in particular if the staff in question aren't happy with the details given, the attendance of a police constable if available becomes the next step - they can check the Police National Computer and if they aren't happy then the final escalation is to be arrested and locked in a cell until a magistrate in court is available to deal with the matter.

Thus giving false details is in itself a calculated risk and is also a separate criminal offence.

I've had relatively minor issues escalate as an inspector before and the timely appearance of a police constable has resulted in someone being quite unexpectedly arrested on the spot, usually because they're thick enough to try and evade a train fare while being subsequently wanted for something far more interesting.

I did once see BTP officers, who had obviously been waiting for the arrival of our train, corner a gentleman at about eight o'clock in the evening at Derby station for having tried to hide in the bogs to avoid paying. Probably an extreme case but he would have been pretty foolish to lie about his name then!

 

[Haywain]

because they're thick enough to try and evade a train fare while being subsequently wanted for something far more interesting.

One reason that police officers are often present when a revenue block is taking place.

 

[Cloud Strife]

I'm from Finland (Åland to be exact)

Do you have the same ID cards as people from the mainland, or are there any differences? I know your passports have Åland on them.

Speaking of the Finnish register, is it true that anyone can look up anyone's tax details, including the amount of tax paid?

 

[island]

Speaking of the Finnish register, is it true that anyone can look up anyone's tax details, including the amount of tax paid?

I thought that was Norway. And the person you look up gets notified who was looking.

 

[js1000]

Surely Revenue Officers don't have 'automatic access' to every address on the Electoral Register given the Data Protection concerns? I can't quite believe Revenue Officers and Conductors who are able to issue Penalty Fares can have access to such database carte blanche. Alas, another part of thinks this might not be surprising given the explosion of fraud and scams in society if it can be so easily attained by employees with nefarious intentions if they so wish. A relative of mine works as the global data protection for a large advertising firm, he said it is remarkable what companies can get away. He says it is only a matter of time before governments have no choice but implement far stricter regulations given the exponential growth in identity fraud and scams. Unfortunately many of these arise from the mis-use of data by employees of companies - basically a name, addresses and a date of birth can be too easily combined.

 

[Haywain]

Surely Revenue Officers don't have 'automatic access' to every address on the Electoral Register given the Data Protection concerns?

They don’t, they have access to an agency that has access and can confirm whether details given are correct against the register.

 

[js1000]

They don’t, they have access to an agency that has access and can confirm whether details given are correct against the register.

Thanks Haywain. Thought not. An agency is a lot different to a Revenue Protection Officer (third-party too often) being entrusted with such data. A lot of people get carried away on here regarding byelaws etc and don't see the wider issues of data protection, potential insurance issues "confrontations" entail etc

 

[_toommm_]

When I got a UFN for forgetting my Railcard on TPE, they checked my address on their phone with my Driving License.

 

[Haywain]

When I got a UFN for forgetting my Railcard on TPE, they checked my address on their phone with my Driving License.

Anyone can check an address is genuine, but checking a name matches that address is a different matter.