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What would happen if a driver was given a wrong route?

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30907

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Yep, Northampton or Weedon is fine either way, (as long as you're not booked to stop at Northampton or Long Buckby, of course) I think Stafford and Hixon is another pair on the WCML, along with the Quarry lines or Redhill on the Brighton Mainline. There's probably a few others.
Catford Loop is the other classic, and I would hazard a guess at the Parks Bridge Junction area (for trains not stopping at Lewisham).
 
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APT618S

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Was on the Pathfinders tour The Pigs Trotter back in 1995 where the train was routed on the Up Hendon Goods Line behind P4 at West Hampstead which was a booked set down point, we stopped additionally at Cricklewood instead.

Another time on an ADEX from Newcastle to Scotland via Carlisle in the early 1990s, Class 47 + LHCS. We left Newcastle heading south and took the Up Fast across the King Edward Bridge. I thought at the time that there was no crossover at the south end of the bridge. Sure enough we stopped on the curve at the south end of the bridge. After a few mins we simply reversed all the way back into the station and into the platform from where we started. On the second attempt we took the correct route swinging over onto the Carlisle lines on the northern part of the bridge.
 

Halish Railway

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I remember a bizarre incedent about a year or two ago in which the 16:11 from Bradford to Skipton departed Bradford on time with the correct 2Sxx headcode showing up on Traksy & RTT and the feather indicator on the signal protecting Shipley South Jn ignited, only for an announcement to be made onboard that the train was actually going to Leeds!

It then made its way to the signal and stopped, with the signal being changed to route the train into platform 3 at Shipley.
 

Millisle

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Many years ago I was on an Edinburgh - Inverness train routed via Stirling. It stopped at Carmuirs East Jcn west of Falkirk. Looking out I saw that the signal was pulled off for Carmuirs West Jcn to Glasgow, rather than Larbert Jcn to Stirling. The driver sounded the horn and waited until he got the correct route.
 

gingertom

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I remember seeing on the BBC national news many years ago an HST from Cornwall traveling to Paddington being wrongly routed looped via Weston-Super-Mare instead of direct to Bristol. I don't remember if the driver had to back up to gain the correct road or proceed via Weston.
 

Mintona

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Out of interest, is it theoretically possible that a train could be given the wrong route where there is no way for the driver to know until it's too late to stop in time? I'm thinking like, a set of points where, by the time the driver sees a signal showing which way the points are set, it would be impossible to stop the train before the points?

Certainly at Cogload Junction north of Taunton. The route towards Bristol is 100mph and the route towards Castle Cary is 90mph so there is no requirement to be checked down with signals for either route. The signal with the junction indicator is just after a long left hand curve and has no prior warning of which direction the route is set.

I remember seeing on the BBC national news many years ago an HST from Cornwall traveling to Paddington being wrongly routed looped via Weston-Super-Mare instead of direct to Bristol. I don't remember if the driver had to back up to gain the correct road or proceed via Weston.

There is no requirement to query the route given if routed through Weston Super Mare or via the avoiders, provided of course the train isn’t booked to call at Weston.
 

gingertom

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Certainly at Cogload Junction north of Taunton. The route towards Bristol is 100mph and the route towards Castle Cary is 90mph so there is no requirement to be checked down with signals for either route. The signal with the junction indicator is just after a long left hand curve and has no prior warning of which direction the route is set.



There is no requirement to query the route given if routed through Weston Super Mare or via the avoiders, provided of course the train isn’t booked to call at Weston.
the train wasn't booked to call at Weston.
 

Bill57p9

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Back in 1996 I was on a train that stopped at Farnborough Main as scheduled but had stayed on the down fast, which doesn't have a platform face. We eventually reversed and were then routed into the platform.
 

DorkingMain

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Back in 1996 I was on a train that stopped at Farnborough Main as scheduled but had stayed on the down fast, which doesn't have a platform face. We eventually reversed and were then routed into the platform.
There was a lot of emphasis on "Points of no return" when I learned Woking - Basingstoke, for this reason.

As a guard, I only experienced a wrong routing twice. The first time, I noticed it and the driver didn't - we were stopped at Effingham Junction and routed towards Epsom on a Cobham service. I buzzed him up and asked if he knew anything about us being diverted, at which point much "Oh s**t" came down the IC.

The second time was on a Woking stopper at Surbiton, the junction indicator showed the left indication for Hampton Court. As I noticed, I heard the beep beep beep, beep beep beep repeatedly coming from the driver who had also noticed.
 

Flange Squeal

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Out of interest, is it theoretically possible that a train could be given the wrong route where there is no way for the driver to know until it's too late to stop in time? I'm thinking like, a set of points where, by the time the driver sees a signal showing which way the points are set, it would be impossible to stop the train before the points?
Until the area was resignalled (I can't remember exactly when that was but it wasn't a million years ago), drivers would get a green on the approach to Worting Junction west of Basingstoke - regardless of whether heading towards Southampton or Salisbury. The first the driver would know for certain which line they'd been directed onto would be the junction indicator on the junction signal, by which time they'd have built up some speed due to the high speed pointwork. Aside from the obvious hassle associated with having to stop and set back, the Salisbury line isn't electrified and most Southampton line passenger services are/were electric... This risk was reduced at the time of resignalling though, with trains routed towards Salisbury getting flashing yellows on the approach to the junction.
 

Annetts key

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I remember seeing on the BBC national news many years ago an HST from Cornwall traveling to Paddington being wrongly routed looped via Weston-Super-Mare instead of direct to Bristol. I don't remember if the driver had to back up to gain the correct road or proceed via Weston.
In the event of problems on the main lines (avoiders), the line via Weston-super-Mare is an alternative valid route.

Obviously if there were no problems on the main lines (avoiders) and the train was booked to go via the main lines (avoiders), then going via Weston-super-Mare would add to the journey time and hence delay the train.

Occasionally you may see freight trains routed via Weston-super-Mare to let a fast ‘overtake’ via the main lines (avoiders).

Sometimes trains are booked to go via Weston-super-Mare but not stop at the station. This is done for route learning purposes.

Presumably there are various other places where similar things happen.

Slightly more obvious, is passenger trains running via loops due to failures or any train running in the ‘wrong’ direction on bidirectionally signalled line due to failures. But most drivers don’t stop to query this, because they know that these arrangements are valid alternatives.

On a slightly different note, it’s not a misrouting if a train is being diverted and the relevant train operating company or freight company has already confirmed that the driver has the required route knowledge for the alternative route. Even though the driver may stop to ask the signaller what’s going on.

This sometimes happens when trains go via Bath/Box instead of via Bristol Parkway/Chipping Sodbury or vice versa. Or via a different route at the Filton/Patchway/Stoke Gifford “triangle” (which includes changing ends and direction) due to a train failure or a points failure or similar.
 
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father_jack

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Wasn't there a train in South Wales about 20 years ago that went on 15 miles magical mystery tour of freight only lives before the driver thought he'd best stop?
Probably closer to 25 years ago, a westbound HST got the feather at Briton Ferry for the Swansea District line and accepted it.
 

plarailfan

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A Virgin XC HST, accidentally went into Ferrybridge Power Station ! Having gone on a booked diversion, from it's normal route between Sheffield and Leeds, it was sent via Pontefract Baghill. At Ferrybridge it was signalled into the Power Station ! The driver accepted the signal and it took some time to get back out and go to Leeds. HST's had, actually been cleared to to through the power station on railtours, which was most fortunate !
Incidentally, a pair of class 20 locomotives starred in the Locomaster profiles, GBXV DVD film. which departed from London Waterloo and the driver was signalled an incorrect route, which he noticed in good time and then, had to wait a few minutes, for the route to be correctly set.
 

jfollows

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It's worth mentioning though that some routes may technically be 'wrong' i.e. different to what is booked, but drivers on that particular route are told to accept them without question. I swear there's one on the southern end of the WCML (maybe diverging to Northampton???).
I gave some more information in a recent post on this at 9 Jul 2021

Additionally: (https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blo...tern (North) Sectional Appendix June 2021.pdf)
NW5009 - COLWICH JN TO CHEADLE HULME Colwich Jn To Stone Jn
Virgin Trains diverted via Stafford. Down and Up trains booked to run via Meaford Crossing L.C. (CCTV) to or from Stoke-On-Trent may be diverted via Stafford without previous warning and Drivers so routed need not observe the requirements of Rule Book, Module S7, Section 1.2.
If a Down train is booked to call at Stoke-On-Trent or Macclesfield, Drivers of trains on the Down Slow line must stop and challenge the route at Searchlight Lane Junction (signal SC5609) if not routed towards Stone Junction. Drivers of trains on the Down Fast line must stop and challenge the route at Norton Bridge Junction (signal SC3605) if not routed towards Stone Junction.
Dated: 31/05/16
 
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150219

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<snip> then they’d have to wait the three??? minutes for the route to cancel before they could choose another one.
The length of time depends on the settings of how long it takes the route to time out. They vary between 30 seconds and 4 minutes on our route.
 

Falcon1200

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It's worth mentioning though that some routes may technically be 'wrong' i.e. different to what is booked, but drivers on that particular route are told to accept them without question. I swear there's one on the southern end of the WCML (maybe diverging to Northampton???).

The same applies in Scotland at Greenhill Upper and Polmont Junctions, so that if the route via Falkirk High is blocked for any reason, Glasgow/Edinburgh expresses can be diverted via Falkirk Grahamston without incurring more delay questioning the route.
 

43096

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There was an occasion in the last few years where a Reading to Waterloo service was wrong-routed at Wokingham. The up starter at Wokingham has a feather on it to indicate the route towards Waterloo is set. Presumably it wasn’t lit as the road was set for the unelectrified North Downs line: driver took it. Cue extensive disruption for several hours whilst they recovered the by-now off juice EMU.
 

FManc

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There’s a PRI on the approach to Rugby just after Hilmorton Junction on the down fast for Rugby TV Junction. As the junction speed is 125mph if you’re given the wrong route (via the Trent or via BHM) on the PRI and you don’t react quickly enough or put the brake in a high step then chances are you’re taking the wrong route!
 

jnjkerbin

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Yep, Northampton or Weedon is fine either way, (as long as you're not booked to stop at Northampton or Long Buckby, of course) I think Stafford and Hixon is another pair on the WCML, along with the Quarry lines or Redhill on the Brighton Mainline. There's probably a few others.

EDIT: Already posted above, sorry

Another example is the two routes from Shortlands towards Victoria - drivers of non-stop trains will accept either the main route through Beckenham Jn or via the Catford Loop.
 

Geezertronic

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There’s a PRI on the approach to Rugby just after Hilmorton Junction on the down fast for Rugby TV Junction. As the junction speed is 125mph if you’re given the wrong route (via the Trent or via BHM) on the PRI and you don’t react quickly enough or put the brake in a high step then chances are you’re taking the wrong route!

I was on a Virgin Trains service from Euston to Birmingham New Street some years back that was wrong-routed down the Trent Valley instead of towards Coventry. Train came to a quick stop (from probably the 125mph you describe), after some time it reversed into Rugby station, then after some more time it went on its way down towards Coventry.
 

james60059

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Happened a few years ago at Nuneaton, the tanks to Bedworth were routed over Platform 7 instead of through 1 or 2. 40145 came to the rescue however....

 

Bill EWS

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Driver's know which way they are booked to go and are always mindful when approaching any junction. In most cases the route is signalled giving a visual indication in advance and you would know the wrong indication had been given well in advance. Likewise being given flashing yellows prior to a junction also tells you that you are turning out and if given that indication when you are booked over the direct route where you wouldn't require flashing yellows is also an indication that you should be prepared to stop at the control signal and talk with the signalman.

I once found myself in the situation where I was signalled to stop at a junction as normal. The signal was at the end of a tightly curved platform. I approached the red signal at a speed where I could stop comfortably. However, the signal had cleared by the time it came into vision but was for the opposite direction. I had signed both routes but at this time had gone over the time limit and required a refresher day before I could officially drive over the route once again so made the decision to stop and talk with the signalman.

After explaining the situation and the tree minute wait for the signal to clear I set off on the booked route. As for making a report and getting the signalman into trouble and causing even longer delay to myself .... Don't be silly.

I could have taken a chance and simply carried on as I would have got back onto my booked route further up the line. Fine if I had a clear and safe run. However, if a further incident occurred on the way that required full reporting and a possible hearing I could have found myself in difficulty by being out of date with my knowledge over that route, therefore it wasn't worth the chance.
 

DynamicSpirit

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After explaining the situation and the tree minute wait for the signal to clear I set off on the booked route. As for making a report and getting the signalman into trouble and causing even longer delay to myself .... Don't be silly.

Thanks for the interesting explanation (and to all the other drivers/etc. here who have explained how this works).

Another thing puzzles me... 3 minutes? A couple of people have mentioned that. Is it not possible for the signaller to simply change the points to the correct route and then - assuming the correct route is clear - the train be good to go immediately? Why the additional 3 minute block?
 

zwk500

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Another thing puzzles me... 3 minutes? A couple of people have mentioned that. Is it not possible for the signaller to simply change the points to the correct route and then - assuming the correct route is clear - the train be good to go immediately? Why the additional 3 minute block?
The route is locked to ensure all trains have come to a stand before the signaller resets the route, to prevent moving the points as the train passes over. It also preserves important safety measures for adjacent lines like flank protection and swinging overlaps. If a train had passed the previous signal at Green before the signaller had cancelled the route, the driver wouldn't be able to stop in time.

As other posts have mentioned, the timeout can vary depending on local circumstances.
 

Failed Unit

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Driver's know which way they are booked to go and are always mindful when approaching any junction. In most cases the route is signalled giving a visual indication in advance and you would know the wrong indication had been given well in advance. Likewise being given flashing yellows prior to a junction also tells you that you are turning out and if given that indication when you are booked over the direct route where you wouldn't require flashing yellows is also an indication that you should be prepared to stop at the control signal and talk with the signalman.

I once found myself in the situation where I was signalled to stop at a junction as normal. The signal was at the end of a tightly curved platform. I approached the red signal at a speed where I could stop comfortably. However, the signal had cleared by the time it came into vision but was for the opposite direction. I had signed both routes but at this time had gone over the time limit and required a refresher day before I could officially drive over the route once again so made the decision to stop and talk with the signalman.

After explaining the situation and the tree minute wait for the signal to clear I set off on the booked route. As for making a report and getting the signalman into trouble and causing even longer delay to myself .... Don't be silly.

I could have taken a chance and simply carried on as I would have got back onto my booked route further up the line. Fine if I had a clear and safe run. However, if a further incident occurred on the way that required full reporting and a possible hearing I could have found myself in difficulty by being out of date with my knowledge over that route, therefore it wasn't worth the chance.

So would you automatically stop if you were cleared for the route and it could be sensible.

For example if you are travelling from Stevenage to Finsbury Park, if you got sent via Hertford North would you as a matter of course stop and ask why? In this case Hertford North is a valid diversion route rather than WGC and frequently gets used if the brown stuff hits the fan.

Just wondering if it is normally practice to stop you before it is offer, or if it would be communicated to you in advance via the radio.
 

jfollows

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So would you automatically stop if you were cleared for the route and it could be sensible.

For example if you are travelling from Stevenage to Finsbury Park, if you got sent via Hertford North would you as a matter of course stop and ask why? In this case Hertford North is a valid diversion route rather than WGC and frequently gets used if the brown stuff hits the fan.

Just wondering if it is normally practice to stop you before it is offer, or if it would be communicated to you in advance via the radio.
The instructions for cases like these can be found in the Sectional Appendix, and don't appear for the Hertford Loop, so that pretty much tells me (only an enthusiast, not a driver) that the rule book would need to be followed here (in other words, the driver should stop and query the routing).
If you search a Sectional Appendix, for example for the string "S7", you'll find documented cases like the one I've just found myself:
MD306 - BIRMINGHAM NEW STREET TO ASHCHURCH (EXCL.) (VIA DUNHAMPSTEAD)
KINGS NORTON To BIRMINGHAM NEW STREET
Up direction CrossCountry services booked to run between Kings Norton and Birmingham New Street, either via Selly Oak or via Lifford East Junction and Bordesley Junction, may be diverted accordingly without warning. Drivers so routed need not observe the second sentence of Rule Book, Module S7, Section 1.2.
Dated: 21/10/2017
 

norbitonflyer

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The route is locked to ensure all trains have come to a stand before the signaller resets the route, to prevent moving the points as the train passes over. It also preserves important safety measures for adjacent lines like flank protection and swinging overlaps. If a train had passed the previous signal at Green before the signaller had cancelled the route, the driver wouldn't be able to stop in time.

As other posts have mentioned, the timeout can vary depending on local circumstances.
The signalling system doesn't know why the signal has been put back to red, so is designed on the assumption a train could be approaching at line speed. The delay ensures any such train has stopped at the signal before the points can be moved or, if it was unable to stop, has occupied the track circuit preventing the points being moved under it.

A "wrong stick" was a contributory cause in the Lewisham disaster of 1957, as the chain of events started when a Hastings train was given a route to Hayes. At the time, the system offering trains forward only distinguished between "electric" and "steam" - practice was inconsistent with the new Hastings diesels hence the misunderstanding between the two signalmen concerned. The confusion was compounded by the fact that a Hayes train was scheduled to run ahead of the Hastings but was in fact behind it.
The resulting delay to the following train (the real Hayes train) meant it was brought to a stand in the section in rear of the stationary Hastings train. In the fog, the crew of a steam-hauled Ramsgate service missed the signals protecting the Hayes train and ran into the back of it, bringing down the Lewisham flyover on top of them both
 
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150219

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Thanks for the interesting explanation (and to all the other drivers/etc. here who have explained how this works).

Another thing puzzles me... 3 minutes? A couple of people have mentioned that. Is it not possible for the signaller to simply change the points to the correct route and then - assuming the correct route is clear - the train be good to go immediately? Why the additional 3 minute block?
It's not always 3 minutes. It depends on how long it's been programmed in the interlocking to time out. It's between 30 seconds and 4 minutes on our route, depending on which signal needs the route cancelling.
 

krus_aragon

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Finally, had anyone ever been travelling and had this happen?
One Sunday morning, when travelling from Cardiff to Crewe, I got rather panicky when we didn't turn left at Maindee, but carried on ahead toward the Severn Tunnel. :s

Having glanced around and checked that yes, I was on a 175, and hadn't accidentally boarded a FGW train, we came to a stop. A few moments later the driver walked through the train, and we reversed along the Maindee curve toward Shrewsbury.

As it turns out, this was NOT a wrong route taken (to the best of my knowledge), because we were right time at Cwmbrân and onwards. It seems that it was a planned diversion for route knowledge purpose, but nobody had thought to tell us passengers.
 
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Failed Unit

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One Sunday morning, when travelling from Cardiff to Crewe, I got rather panicky when we didn't turn left at Maindee, but carried on ahead toward the Severn Tunnel. :s

Having glanced around and checked that yes, I was on a 175, and hadn't accidentally boarded a FGW train, we came to a stop. A few moments later the driver walked through the train, and we reversed along the Maindee curve toward Shrewsbury.

As it turns out, this was NOT a wrong route taken (to the best of my knowledge), because we were right time at Cwmbrân and onwards. It seems that it was a planned diversion for route knowledge purpose, but nobody had thought to tell us passengers
I have seen similar reactions from passengers, when a Lincoln - Nottingham train goes into Newark Northgate. Not something that happens a lot these days but many of them haven't paid full attention to the stopping pattern.
 
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