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What would happen if a driver was given a wrong route?

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ComUtoR

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I've probably been wrong routed around 50 + times. I've even been wrong routed twice on the same trip :/

I work for a very intense Metro TOC with numerous routes over the same track. Getting wrong routed, for me, is a regular occurrence.
 
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Watershed

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Thanks for the interesting explanation (and to all the other drivers/etc. here who have explained how this works).

Another thing puzzles me... 3 minutes? A couple of people have mentioned that. Is it not possible for the signaller to simply change the points to the correct route and then - assuming the correct route is clear - the train be good to go immediately? Why the additional 3 minute block?
Not if the signalling system detects there is a train in the berth associated with the signal in question, or (in most cases) if there is a train approaching the signal which would be liable to receive an adverse change of aspect, i.e. go from yellow/double yellow to red.

This protection exists to prevent a collision/incident as a result of a train from passing through a signal that's been reset less than braking distance in advance, and which it's therefore had no chance to stop for.

The reset time varies, for most shunt/subsidiary signals it's just 30 seconds as the speeds in question are normally very low and drivers should always be prepared to stop short of any obstruction. The default timing is 2 minutes, but it can be longer (up to 4 mins) on some signals. That would normally be where line speeds are particularly high, and/or where there is 2-aspect signalling with repeater signals and long track circuit sections, meaning you might not be able to tell if a train has passed the repeater signal and has thus had an opportunity to brake for the red signal.
 

MotCO

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An early morning train from Basingstoke to Waterloo diverts after Wimbledon via Putney and the LUL lines. If a driver is not passed on this routeing, the train continues straight up the main line to Waterloo. Presumably someone has to tell the signalman to manually divert the train. Presumably it is possible for a driver to be asked to take the diverted route which he is not cleared for, and thus have to stop at Wimbledon to advise the signalman for the route to be changed to the mainline. Geoff Marshall has a video on this - he tried to 'tick off' the LU route, but that morning the driver did not have the route knowledge, so he got up early for nothing! (
)

Also, what would happen if a train was mis-routed, and the driver accidentally took it (either due to insufficient stopping time or by error), but the train type had not been cleared for the wrong route?
 

185143

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I was on a GWR that was wrong routed at Westbury recently. Another train had been cancelled so we got stop orders for Castle Cary and Westbury. Yet we were routed via the normal booked route. Cue a stop and call to the box for the route to get changed, the TM explaining the delay as "waiting for another late running train to get into Westbury ahead of us". Which I thought was quite poor really, he could have just said signalling issues and left it at that, rather than lying as the other train mentioned was actually early!
 

Furryanimal

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One Sunday morning, when travelling from Cardiff to Crewe, I got rather panicky when we didn't turn left at Maindee, but carried on ahead toward the Severn Tunnel. :s

Having glanced around and checked that yes, I was on a 175, and hadn't accidentally boarded a FGW train, we came to a stop. A few moments later the driver walked through the train, and we reversed along the Maindee curve toward Shrewsbury.

As it turns out, this was NOT a wrong route taken (to the best of my knowledge), because we were right time at Cwmbrân and onwards. It seems that it was a planned diversion for route knowledge purpose, but nobody had thought to tell us passengers.
Yeah -this has happened a few times down the years when the engineering work has blocked the west curve route into Newport.
But in the early days of Cwmbran station I was sat at the front of an old type DMU and noticed we weren’t signalled up the Marches line.The driver did too but too late to stop.Cue some choice language from said driver!We sat for several minutes before being allowed to reverse.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Not if the signalling system detects there is a train in the berth associated with the signal in question, or (in most cases) if there is a train approaching the signal which would be liable to receive an adverse change of aspect, i.e. go from yellow/double yellow to red.

This protection exists to prevent a collision/incident as a result of a train from passing through a signal that's been reset less than braking distance in advance, and which it's therefore had no chance to stop for.

The reset time varies, for most shunt/subsidiary signals it's just 30 seconds as the speeds in question are normally very low and drivers should always be prepared to stop short of any obstruction. The default timing is 2 minutes, but it can be longer (up to 4 mins) on some signals. That would normally be where line speeds are particularly high, and/or where there is 2-aspect signalling with repeater signals and long track circuit sections, meaning you might not be able to tell if a train has passed the repeater signal and has thus had an opportunity to brake for the red signal.

Thanks - I guess that makes sense to the extent that the system doesn't necessarily know that the train concerned has actually stopped in order to query the route. But it seems surprising to me that it's not possible for the signaller to override the delay - to cover cases where the signaller has just been talking to the train driver and therefore knows that it's actually safe for the train to proceed immediately?
 

dingdinger

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There was an occasion in the last few years where a Reading to Waterloo service was wrong-routed at Wokingham. The up starter at Wokingham has a feather on it to indicate the route towards Waterloo is set. Presumably it wasn’t lit as the road was set for the unelectrified North Downs line: driver took it. Cue extensive disruption for several hours whilst they recovered the by-now off juice EMU.
Slap on the wrist for guard, driver and signaller then?
 

DorkingMain

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There was an occasion in the last few years where a Reading to Waterloo service was wrong-routed at Wokingham. The up starter at Wokingham has a feather on it to indicate the route towards Waterloo is set. Presumably it wasn’t lit as the road was set for the unelectrified North Downs line: driver took it. Cue extensive disruption for several hours whilst they recovered the by-now off juice EMU.
Has happened more than once unfortunately. Even worse if you're starting back from the down platform - the indications are B for Blackwater or M for Main. Of course historically, the route via Blackwater is the main (hence the feather on the up) and the next station on the Staines route is Bracknell!
 

zwk500

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Thanks - I guess that makes sense to the extent that the system doesn't necessarily know that the train concerned has actually stopped in order to query the route. But it seems surprising to me that it's not possible for the signaller to override the delay - to cover cases where the signaller has just been talking to the train driver and therefore knows that it's actually safe for the train to proceed immediately?
3 minutes wait or a crash. It's not a hard decision. If the signaller had an overrride there's always a chance of misuse (deliberate or accidental).
 

Watershed

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Thanks - I guess that makes sense to the extent that the system doesn't necessarily know that the train concerned has actually stopped in order to query the route. But it seems surprising to me that it's not possible for the signaller to override the delay - to cover cases where the signaller has just been talking to the train driver and therefore knows that it's actually safe for the train to proceed immediately?
It's simply too risky! Whilst of course if used as intended, it would be perfectly safe. But the same could be said of half-barrier and even full-barrier level crossings...
 

Gloster

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Thanks - I guess that makes sense to the extent that the system doesn't necessarily know that the train concerned has actually stopped in order to query the route. But it seems surprising to me that it's not possible for the signaller to override the delay - to cover cases where the signaller has just been talking to the train driver and therefore knows that it's actually safe for the train to proceed immediately?
Quite simply: the railway works on the Fail Safe principle. Nine hundred and ninety-nine times out of a thousand (or nine-thousand...) it will all go fine. But once in a blue moon there will be a misunderstanding, stray indication or whatever, and you might have a nasty crash. All railway rules should be understood to have this as their basis.
 

DorkingMain

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An early morning train from Basingstoke to Waterloo diverts after Wimbledon via Putney and the LUL lines. If a driver is not passed on this routeing, the train continues straight up the main line to Waterloo. Presumably someone has to tell the signalman to manually divert the train. Presumably it is possible for a driver to be asked to take the diverted route which he is not cleared for, and thus have to stop at Wimbledon to advise the signalman for the route to be changed to the mainline. Geoff Marshall has a video on this - he tried to 'tick off' the LU route, but that morning the driver did not have the route knowledge, so he got up early for nothing! (
)

Also, what would happen if a train was mis-routed, and the driver accidentally took it (either due to insufficient stopping time or by error), but the train type had not been cleared for the wrong route?
To answer the first point -
If it's a planned working via a route you don't sign, you'd be expected to let the managers know when you booked on for duty, so the signaller would be informed well in advance. If it was an unplanned diversion, the signaller should let the driver know in advance that they're going to be diverted, at which point the driver would let the signaller know they don't sign the diversion.

As for trains routed where they aren't cleared, it would depend on why they weren't cleared and how far down the route they'd got. Generally the answer would be a wrong direction movement back to the junction where they'd joined the route - if that wasn't feasible then another emergency plan would be cooked up, either to put the train into a siding or take it off the route at the nearest opportunity.
 

Surreytraveller

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Thanks - I guess that makes sense to the extent that the system doesn't necessarily know that the train concerned has actually stopped in order to query the route. But it seems surprising to me that it's not possible for the signaller to override the delay - to cover cases where the signaller has just been talking to the train driver and therefore knows that it's actually safe for the train to proceed immediately?
That's what the driver of the Chiltern train did in the RAIB report recently published did, and look what nearly happened

Ah ok, so route setting errors are probably more likely to be a signaller missing an incorrectly set automatic route than incorrectly setting their own manually? Is that fair to say?
I fair amount of wrong routes are when signallers leave a signal in 'auto' and an approaching train is the one-an-hour that takes the diverging route
 

Horizon22

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To answer the first point -
If it's a planned working via a route you don't sign, you'd be expected to let the managers know when you booked on for duty, so the signaller would be informed well in advance. If it was an unplanned diversion, the signaller should let the driver know in advance that they're going to be diverted, at which point the driver would let the signaller know they don't sign the diversion.

As for trains routed where they aren't cleared, it would depend on why they weren't cleared and how far down the route they'd got. Generally the answer would be a wrong direction movement back to the junction where they'd joined the route - if that wasn't feasible then another emergency plan would be cooked up, either to put the train into a siding or take it off the route at the nearest opportunity.

In this scenario though, there's every chance the passengers need not know simply because it didn't affect the calling pattern at all. So only when the guard realised there were "enthusiasts" on board would he bother mentioning it, otherwise he probably wouldn't have bothered! Its likely everyone knew before book-on.
 

185143

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In this scenario though, there's every chance the passengers need not know simply because it didn't affect the calling pattern at all. So only when the guard realised there were "enthusiasts" on board would he bother mentioning it, otherwise he probably wouldn't have bothered! Its likely everyone knew before book-on.
I think pretty much every time I've been on a planned diversion on CrossCountry, it has been mentioned.

Did Manchester-Stafford and back via Crewe a few years ago and we were told what was going on (and on the way back in great detail, including our approximate speed on the Styal line!) And both the Bristol divert+reverse moves ongoing at the moment got an announcement.
 

voyagerdude220

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I seem to remember in Virgin Cross Country days a Bournemouth to Edinburgh Voyager service at Crewe being sent towards Sandbach and happily taking the route, before the Signaller realised there was no route available towards Manchester etc. because of booked engineering work taking place. It even made the local news at the time.
 

krus_aragon

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In this scenario though, there's every chance the passengers need not know simply because it didn't affect the calling pattern at all. So only when the guard realised there were "enthusiasts" on board would he bother mentioning it, otherwise he probably wouldn't have bothered! Its likely everyone knew before book-on.
A planned diversion which introduces a reversal will be noticed by a fair number of non-enthusiasts, and may be worth announcing.
 

Horizon22

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A planned diversion which introduces a reversal will be noticed by a fair number of non-enthusiasts, and may be worth announcing.

Thought the scenario we were referring to was none of these things, instead reaching Wimbledon - Clapham Junction via a slightly different route.
 

43066

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A planned diversion which introduces a reversal will be noticed by a fair number of non-enthusiasts, and may be worth announcing.

I can see why they wouldn’t announce it. It would be likely to cause confusion, with people half hearing the announcement and then panicking that they’re on the wrong train. The vast majority of passengers would not notice the train taking a different route, and probably wouldn’t even notice a reversal.
 

Meerkat

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I wish they would announce it when they divert the late night train SWML trains round through Staines - when you are a bit ‘tired and emotional’ and desperate for your bed looking out and seeing the Thames is most perturbing!
 

Stigy

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Out of interest, is it theoretically possible that a train could be given the wrong route where there is no way for the driver to know until it's too late to stop in time? I'm thinking like, a set of points where, by the time the driver sees a signal showing which way the points are set, it would be impossible to stop the train before the points?
There’s a few places like this. Wilton Jubction nr Salisbury being one. You don’t sight the signal with the Junction Indicator until you pass under a bridge and if you can stop in time from the 50mph ish you’re travelling at, it would be very tight. You’d probably stop before the junction, but by that time technically you’ve accepted the route.

In this case, the driver wouldn’t be responsible for the wrong write acceptance (the powers that be may “umm and ahh” about it but there’s no instruction or rule that dictates we should travel at a reduced speed for this reason).
 

Horizon22

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I wish they would announce it when they divert the late night train SWML trains round through Staines - when you are a bit ‘tired and emotional’ and desperate for your bed looking out and seeing the Thames is most perturbing!

But is it truly "diverted" if that is the route it is booked to take in the timetable?
 

waverley47

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My favourite story about this stems from the early 2000s, when ScotRail were testing out the 90s for the North Berwick runs. I went out to newcraighall one evening to go and see them, and as one pulls up on a driver training run, awaiting the signal to proceed to Waverley.

A senior driver steps down out of the cab, says goodbye to his colleague driving, and recognising a few of us on the platform, wanders over for a chat. The signal goes green, and the 90 pulls off.

Senior driver looks down the platform to see the signal showing proceed onto the Edinburgh suburban line (not electrified) and sprints off down the platform after his colleague. The 90 pulls out of the station, around the left hand curve and then ... Ping!!!

The now furious senior driver marches along to the cab, and we standing on the platform heard a good five minutes of choice language directed at both the driver in the cab of the 90, and the signaller.


These things do happen, and it's entirely down to whether you catch it in time. 99% of the time a driver will, and either it will be an authorized move, and so you accept it, or you'll stop and challenge the route. Sending an electric off the wires doesn't happen much any more, and as SurreyTraveller points out, a lot of these incidents will be the one train in twenty that takes a different route, and the signaller just runs on auto and doesn't catch it.

In the above case, it was a freight headcode heading from Millerhill, it makes sense to send it around the sub. Simply a matter of bringing something down from Millerhill to reverse it back under the wires, and off you go.
 

QueensCurve

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If a train is sent the wrong route, but the driver accepts the route, would both the driver and the signaller get a telling off?
I assume if the driver notices and stops before hand then only the signaller would be disciplined or smacked on the wrist?
Finally, had anyone ever been travelling and had this happen?
I have seen this happen twice.

First was at Reading about 1989. I was boarding a Paddington to Bristol train scheduled to be diverted via Westbury. The signal was pulled off for the train to depart on the main line. Driver set off and realised the boo boo shortly after passing the signal and had to set back.

Second was my first journey on a "Super Voyager" (what is super about them?) which I boarded at Crewe, Platform 1 in November 2003. It was one of those good old days at Crewe of yore when the trains present in a random order on random platforms. There were conflicting announcements about whether it was the Glasgow, or the Manchester. I confirmed with platform and train staff that it was the Glasgow. It set off down the Manchester line and had to set back.

I witnessed a different, but similar, event at Dundee Platform 4 in 1985 shortly after the remodelling there. The train was bound for Glasgow and the signal pulled off with the feather, not on the platform road but on the adjacent through road. The train dispatcher observed this (shortly after I did) and phoned the signalling centre.

Out of interest, is it theoretically possible that a train could be given the wrong route where there is no way for the driver to know until it's too late to stop in time? I'm thinking like, a set of points where, by the time the driver sees a signal showing which way the points are set, it would be impossible to stop the train before the points?

I have been told, in these fora, that this might have been the Crewe incident above may be a case of this. I am sceptical.

Yep, Northampton or Weedon is fine either way, (as long as you're not booked to stop at Northampton or Long Buckby, of course) I think Stafford and Hixon is another pair on the WCML, along with the Quarry lines or Redhill on the Brighton Mainline. There's probably a few others.

Impromptu diversions via Northampton are very common. I first experienced it on the Down Royal Scot (Euston to Glasgow) in 1974. 17 mins late into Glasgow Central. The first big rail journey I made on my own, when I was 13.
 

Annetts key

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The length of time depends on the settings of how long it takes the route to time out. They vary between 30 seconds and 4 minutes on our route.
For shunting signals not associated with a main aspect signal, where the movement is supposed to take place at slow speeds, the standard time is 30 seconds. Unless there is no train detection (track circuit) and no signalling leading up to a GPL (e.g. a long siding) that protects points that lead onto a main line. Then often the time delay is two minutes.

For main line colour light signals, or for calling on/shunting/position light aspects associated with a main aspect signal, regardless of the number of aspects, the old standard (at least on Western Region) was two minutes. But sometime in the 1980s, three minutes appears to have been adopted.

If there is a long distance between main line signals, the length of the time delay may be extended. The longest that I knew of was at Chipping Sodbury, where the down direction signals on the exit to the long axle counter sections had a six minute timer.

Another thing puzzles me... 3 minutes? A couple of people have mentioned that. Is it not possible for the signaller to simply change the points to the correct route and then - assuming the correct route is clear - the train be good to go immediately? Why the additional 3 minute block?

The signalling system doesn't know why the signal has been put back to red, so is designed on the assumption a train could be approaching at line speed. The delay ensures any such train has stopped at the signal before the points can be moved or, if it was unable to stop, has occupied the track circuit preventing the points being moved under it.

Thanks - I guess that makes sense to the extent that the system doesn't necessarily know that the train concerned has actually stopped in order to query the route. But it seems surprising to me that it's not possible for the signaller to override the delay - to cover cases where the signaller has just been talking to the train driver and therefore knows that it's actually safe for the train to proceed immediately?

The whole reason for a complex signalling system with interlocking controls, is to try and prevent train crashes caused by human error. Either by the signaller or train driver.

A standard set of principles has been developed over the years (although back when BR existed, each region had their own).

One principle is to avoid giving the signaller any override facilities. This is because, when, in the past, such facilities were provided, sooner or later, they were misused. The investigators of various accidents and incidents therefore recommended that the railway should consider very carefully about providing such releases. Even where releases are provided, they are only to be used in a real emergency situation. And the signaller has to follow a set procedure before they are allowed to use the override.

Although various members have provided some good detail on the system, I am going to expand on it a little more.

All modern route interlocking controlled signals where there is either a junction, points, ground frame, swing nose crossing, switch diamond crossing, manually controlled level crossing (including CCTV), or bidirectional signalling, have approach locking. It is this approach locking system that enforces the time delay.

Before I continue to talk about the approach locking system, I need to tell you about the route locking system.

After the signal has been routed and before the signal has actually cleared, the interlocking electrically locks all points and G.F.s to prevent them moving in front of, or under the train. Similarly any level crossing controls are locked to prevent the crossing being open to road users. This protects the path or route that has been set for the train. Thus ensuring that it has safe passage over the points and level crossings. This is called route locking.

After the train passes the signal, even if the signaller cancels the route, the interlocking (route locking) will continue to hold the points and level crossings ahead of (before the train) in the locked state until after the train has passed them.

In addition to the route locking, there is the approach locking system. In fact the approach locking system uses the route locking system to do most of its work.

The approach locking system becomes effective as soon as any part of the signal shows a proceed aspect, be that a route or junction indicator, a calling on or shunting signal (position light aspect) or a main aspect (yellow, double yellow or green).

If the train passes the signal (while showing a proceed aspect) in the normal way, the approach locking will release. Hence in normal running, there is no enforced time delay, because there is no need.

However, if the signaller cancels the route / puts the signal back to red AFTER it has displayed a proceed aspect (or a route or junction indicator, a calling on or shunting signal etc.), then the approach locking will prevent the route locking from releasing. Thus keeping the route ahead of the train in a safe state for the train. No matter how fast the train is travelling. This prevents the signaller from moving any points in front of a moving train, or under a moving train (both of which have occurred in the past and both of which have resulted in train crashes, before approach and route locking were introduced), or raise any barriers/open a level crossing to road users.

If there is a train, either the train will stop at the (now red) signal. Or it will pass the signal. If it passes the signal, the interlocking will continue to keep the points locked that the train is on, preventing them from being moved under the train. It will also keep any level crossings locked.

Regardless if there was a train or not, after the time delay, the approach locking will ‘time out’ and release the route locking, which in turn will release the points and any level crossings from being locked. Only now can the signaller either call another route or move the points via the individual switch or equivalent. Or open any level crossing to road users.

So as you can see, it’s all about safety, preventing human error, and allowing normal operation without causing any delay.

On busy lines, or where it was thought that there was a need, and where the money for a more flexible system was made available, a ‘smarter’ system is used. The system described in the paragraphs above is known as the ‘when operated’ approach locking. Because it operates every time that the signal is put to red by the signaller if a train has not passed it.

The ‘smarter’ system is known as ‘comprehensive approach locking’. For normal running, it works as described above. If a train is detected approaching the signal that has been put back to red, or the train is approaching any signal that would have changed state to a more restrictive aspect, then the time delay works exactly as described in the paragraphs above.

The difference is, if there are no trains approaching, then there is no need to lock the route and enforce a time delay. The system ‘looks back’ so to speak to see if it actually needs to lock the route. No approaching train means the signaller can cancel the route/put the signal back to red, then immediately re-route it somewhere else.

Of course, if a train is on the approach track circuit (or axle counter), or on the berth track circuit (or axle counter), the system will hold the route locked and enforce the time delay. Because as someone has said, the interlocking system does not have any method of detecting the speed of the train. Or knowing the exact position of the train. Hence when a train has stopped at the signal due to being wrong routed, the signaller has to wait for the enforced time delay to end before they can call another (different) route from the signal.
 
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trebor79

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Thanks - I guess that makes sense to the extent that the system doesn't necessarily know that the train concerned has actually stopped in order to query the route. But it seems surprising to me that it's not possible for the signaller to override the delay - to cover cases where the signaller has just been talking to the train driver and therefore knows that it's actually safe for the train to proceed immediately?
Wasn't there a very bad accident somewhere on the Southern region in the 1950's or 1960's caused by the signalman tampering with the electric interlocking of the mini lever frame (or may have been improper operation of an over ride) for exactly this reason? I can't remember which one it was or the details of it, but it resulted in the introduction of more secure physical prevention of unauthorised access to the interlocking.
There was another accident in the London area caused because a signalman had discovered that he could defeat the interlocking on a set of points by moving electric slider for them slightly out of position before clearing the signal. This allowed him to reset them to the normal position for the following movement without waiting for the train to clear the track circuit. Of course, one day the inevitable happened and he either reset them too soon or accidentally moved the slider too far and the points changed whilst the train was passing over them, diverting the rear end onto another line and causing a big derailment.

There's a reason it's not possible to over ride failsafe systems like this.
 
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flitwickbeds

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There's a reason it's not possible to over ride failsafe systems like this.
Slight tangent, but this was also the reason for the Alton Towers crash on The Smiler roller-coaster. The failsafe system wouldn't allow the operator to let a car go out of the station because it knew that the previous car hadn't cleared a section of the track ahead, as it had stalled and come to a natural gravity stop on the track.

This stalled car alone kicked in the failsafe systems but, crucially to the story, and without the operator's knowledge, an additional car had been added from storage onto the track a few minutes previously to try to reduce the queues. Physically counting the cars at the station, including the unknown new one, and matching with the number they (incorrectly) believed were currently operating on the circuit, the operator thought all cars had returned to the station and therefore assumed a fault with the safety system. When the override was activated to release the car out of the station, it then crashed into the back of the car that had stalled.
 

py_megapixel

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The problem of electrics ending up 'off the juice' would be solved gradually with, yes, a rolling scheme of electrification! ;)

I do have a more serious thing to say (or rather ask) than that. Does it ever happen that rolling stock substitutions affect what this? For example if rolling stock one class was cleared for routes A and B but another class substituted and is only cleared for B, what if it were routed by A? Has that ever happened?
 

vlad

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I think pretty much every time I've been on a planned diversion on CrossCountry, it has been mentioned.

It was certainly announced at Bristol when I did that journey earlier this month. Perhaps because it was the first day of the blockade the conductor did say a couple of times exactly what was going to happen, which made the group near me comment that the driver (sic) didn't need to go into that much detail!

I can't help feeling, however, that they'd be ones who'd panic if there weren't any announcements. I did Stoke to Birmingham with a reversal at Nuneaton a few years back - and there were no announcements at all until we'd got going again, in reverse, after stopping at Nuneaton. There were a few people in the carriage concerned we were going back to Stoke.
 
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