What would happen if a driver was given a wrong route?

[185143]

It was certainly announced at Bristol when I did that journey earlier this month. Perhaps because it was the first day of the blockade the conductor did say a couple of times exactly what was going to happen, which made the group near me comment that the driver (sic) didn't need to go into that much detail!

I can't help feeling, however, that they'd be ones who'd panic if there weren't any announcements. I did Stoke to Birmingham with a reversal at Nuneaton a few years back - and there were no announcements at all until we'd got going again, in reverse, after stopping at Nuneaton. There were a few people in the carriage concerned we were going back to Stoke.

Obviously on a different note, but I ended up sharing a carriage on the way back from Fishguard with 30 or so Californians. (I'm sure the conductor was most disappointed when they all had tickets, to London!) I can only assume that they'd travelled West on the same diagram, the one that takes the Carmarthen avoider. The sheer panic when we left Carmarthen going "the wrong way" was rather amusing!

 

[Beebman]

Photo from Flickr of the time in 1991 when a northbound NLL 313 was wrongly routed at Gunnersbury and found itself stranded on LUL District Line 4th rail track:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/88569211@N00/6907735478/

According to a post on a thread on the District Dave Underground Forum:

Quoting report from UndergrounD News, December 1991:
"The train involved was the 16:46 Richmond to Liverpool Street but was running empty as no guard was available. As 313s are fitted with buckeye couplers, another train with like coupling was needed to move the offending unit. To that end LU promptly supplied a battery loco from Lillie Bridge depot, arriving at about 18:05 but in the end it wasn't used, for reasons best known to BR. Instead, a Class 31 BR loco (31 144) with an emergency coupler was summoned from Willesden, arriving to assist the stalled train at about 19:05, which was eventually hauled back to Gunnersbury "wrong road" and thence to Richmond. Fortunately there wasno apparent damage to LU signalling or electrical systems nor to 313 012, which restarted without problem from Richmond."

https://districtdave.proboards.com/post/330952/thread

 

[Re 4/4]

The problem of electrics ending up 'off the juice' would be solved gradually with, yes, a rolling scheme of electrification!

In Germany, December 2020 they completed an electrification project, but wrong-routed the first train full of invited guests for the opening at Hergatz onto a non-wired line and destroyed a perfectly good pantograph in the process.

 

[Pigeon]

Wasn't there a very bad accident somewhere on the Southern region in the 1950's or 1960's caused by the signalman tampering with the electric interlocking of the mini lever frame (or may have been improper operation of an over ride) for exactly this reason? I can't remember which one it was or the details of it, but it resulted in the introduction of more secure physical prevention of unauthorised access to the interlocking.
There was another accident in the London area caused because a signalman had discovered that he could defeat the interlocking on a set of points by moving electric slider for them slightly out of position before clearing the signal. This allowed him to reset them to the normal position for the following movement without waiting for the train to clear the track circuit. Of course, one day the inevitable happened and he either reset them too soon or accidentally moved the slider too far and the points changed whilst the train was passing over them, diverting the rear end onto another line and causing a big derailment.

There was an accident in the Manchester area on the DC electrified lines where a signalman discovered that it was possible to defeat a timeout on some points by using a table knife or a Bardic lamp or some other handy metal object to bridge a set of contacts which were exposed when the slider for a signal on the route was pulled out, and so speed up operations. Until one night when he sped them up a little too much and ended up bringing them to a complete stop. ISTR the report being unwarrantedly hesitant over the idea of shrouding the contacts so they were no longer exposed, because on some patterns of frame it was difficult, while I was thinking the design was faulty for exposing them in any case simply because they might get bridged accidentally (which I think might possibly have been how the vuln was discovered in the first place).

 

[john prytherch]

Yes this was the accident at Audenshaw Junction (then controlled from the power frame in Stockport Junction (Guide Bridge) Box, on the evening of 20 May 1970. It was caused by the signalman interfering with the interlocking behind the frame.

 

[Class2ldn]

On the down sussex fast at Corbett Lane junction we were told when we learnt it that it was ideal not to go over 40mph on approach as the junction indicator has a conveniently placed gantry in view of it so if doing 60 it can be a bit difficult to stop if routed onto the Kent lines.
Nobody takes any notice and still go flat out anyway lol.

 

[Highlandspring]

The problem of electrics ending up 'off the juice' would be solved gradually with, yes, a rolling scheme of electrification!

I do have a more serious thing to say (or rather ask) than that. Does it ever happen that rolling stock substitutions affect what this? For example if rolling stock one class was cleared for routes A and B but another class substituted and is only cleared for B, what if it were routed by A? Has that ever happened?

Yes putting an electric off the wires (or worse, into an isolation or BTET) is easily done during disruption so Control and the signallers have to be on the ball.

As for route clearance, again this is a problem that has to be managed by Control and it can be especially tricky for freight services running with RT3973 forms. It does happen from time to time - just recently there was a bridge strike by a container train which had been diverted and my worst mistake (in terms of safety implications and delay minutes) I ever made as a controller was sending a freight train over a diversionary route for which it wasn‘t cleared because I was under pressure to get things moving and didn’t double check.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Photo from Flickr of the time in 1991 when a northbound NLL 313 was wrongly routed at Gunnersbury and found itself stranded on LUL District Line 4th rail track:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/88569211@N00/6907735478/

According to a post on a thread on the District Dave Underground Forum:

https://districtdave.proboards.com/post/330952/thread

From the photo, it looks like that train didn't just get wrong-routed, but travelled about 500m along the wrong route - more than 1/3 of the way to Turnham Green. I'm guessing it must have been going fairly fast through Gunnersbury not to be able to stop sooner

 

[Falcon1200]

Yes putting an electric off the wires (or worse, into an isolation or BTET) is easily done during disruption so Control and the signallers have to be on the ball.

Two incidents come to mind, both a few years ago now:

One Saturday afternoon, before the Rutherglen to Coatbridge/Whifflet line was electrified, a 6-car Up Argyle Line EMU was wrong routed onto it and became dewired. Staff attended and thought another 6-car could come up behind, still under the OLE, and haul the stranded train back. Unfortunately there was not quite enough OLE......

Another day, when only the two outside lines through the Mound Tunnels at Edinburgh were wired, a Virgin XC train booked diesel was electrically hauled instead, however Control did not inform the Signaller and the train became dewired in the centre tunnel. Huge disruption ensued.

 

[Highlandspring]

My best ones were a class 320 on 5Bxx Shields - Central to work a Lanark sent over the City Union (how could you get that wrong?!) and MENTOR routed into an isolation at the Waverley with the pan up.

 

[Beebman]

I've just remembered one from the summer of 1993 - I was travelling on a 158 from Leeds to Hull when suddenly the driver slammed on the brakes on the approach to Micklefield station where the train was not scheduled to stop. It came to a rest with the front half of the first vehicle just past the junction signal which from my seat I could see was incorrectly displaying a feather for the Church Fenton route. After a short delay and an apology from the conductor, the train set back and the signal was reset to the correct route. There'd been a lot of disruption that day due to heavy thunderstorms (indeed the train I was on was running about 45 minutes late) so my guess is that the signaller was having a stressful shift and maybe the mistake was understandable.

 

[Six Bells]

Colleagues working in VDU locations who have set a wrong route confirm to me that, as a signaller, the 3 minutes to cancel the route feels like 3 hours; especially when the driver, SSM etc are giving you grief...

 

[Highlandspring]

Colleagues working in VDU locations who have set a wrong route confirm to me that, as a signaller, the 3 minutes to cancel the route feels like 3 hours; especially when the driver, SSM etc are giving you grief...

4 minutes is worse, believe me.

 

[Dieseldriver]

Colleagues working in VDU locations who have set a wrong route confirm to me that, as a signaller, the 3 minutes to cancel the route feels like 3 hours; especially when the driver, SSM etc are giving you grief...

Driver giving you grief? I’ve been wrong routed plenty of times and it really doesn’t bother me to sit there waiting.
I don’t understand why a Driver would feel they need to give the Signaller grief?

 

[A0wen]

The problem of electrics ending up 'off the juice' would be solved gradually with, yes, a rolling scheme of electrification!

I do have a more serious thing to say (or rather ask) than that. Does it ever happen that rolling stock substitutions affect what this? For example if rolling stock one class was cleared for routes A and B but another class substituted and is only cleared for B, what if it were routed by A? Has that ever happened?

Only if it's the same system.... somebody posted on another thread about a North London Line class 313 being sent the wrong way at Gunnersbury and drifting to a halt.....

*Edit* photo post upthread here as well.

 

[Stigy]

Driver giving you grief? I’ve been wrong routed plenty of times and it really doesn’t bother me to sit there waiting.
I don’t understand why a Driver would feel they need to give the Signaller grief?

I assume because if they accepted the route it would be on their shoulders. I’ve never been offered a wrong route and would always be professional, but in the heat of the moment I know some drivers may not?

Not a wrong routing as such, but I was not long ago stopped at a signal on approach to a station and was there a while. I pressed SG and got the “wait” message. I turned around to speak to the guard as I knew he was behind the cab door, just to keep him updated. As I was doing so I noticed a route indication for a platform light up and the signal step up to a single hello (only out the corner of my eye, but I noticed nonetheless).

As I turned back round and was ready to get going, I noticed the signal was red again. I called the signaller up and asked if he put the signal back on me, and he informed me he gave me a platform but “changed his mind” so quickly put it back. He was adamant I’d have only seen a number flash up, but I was sure I saw a yellow too. Either way, it’s not really on. Obviously I double checked the signal, but it’s things like this that do set us up for incidents. The platform he initially allocated me was vacant and all lines are bi-directional so it wouldn’t have been a massive drama to keep it as it was. I guess some more….passionate drivers (maybe those who’ve had incidents etc before or have had bad driver/signaller relationships?) may cop the hump.

 

[Dieseldriver]

I assume because if they accepted the route it would be on their shoulders. I’ve never been offered a wrong route and would always be professional, but in the heat of the moment I know some drivers may not?

Not a wrong routing as such, but I was not long ago stopped at a signal on approach to a station and was there a while. I pressed SG and got the “wait” message. I turned around to speak to the guard as I knew he was behind the cab door, just to keep him updated. As I was doing so I noticed a route indication for a platform light up and the signal step up to a single hello (only out the corner of my eye, but I noticed nonetheless).

As I turned back round and was ready to get going, I noticed the signal was red again. I called the signaller up and asked if he put the signal back on me, and he informed me he gave me a platform but “changed his mind” so quickly put it back. He was adamant I’d have only seen a number flash up, but I was sure I saw a yellow too. Either way, it’s not really on. Obviously I double checked the signal, but it’s things like this that do set us up for incidents. The platform he initially allocated me was vacant and all lines are bi-directional so it wouldn’t have been a massive drama to keep it as it was. I guess some more….passionate drivers (maybe those who’ve had incidents etc before or have had bad driver/signaller relationships?) may cop the hump.

I agree with what you’re saying, I’ve been wrong routed countless times in my driving career and I have sat there and thought ‘if I’d have accepted that, you’d have set me up for having an incident on my SOL record’ but at the same time, the Signallers in fairness have always been apologetic, thankful (for me stopping and challenging them) and decent about it, they’ve got to carry on doing their safety critical job afterwards and I would hate to set them up in a bad mindset for the aftermath. It’s a lapse, an error and we’re all capable of
The scenario you’ve given would have actually annoyed me. That’s not a lapse, they know full well they shouldn’t be doing that and there’s no excuse.

 

[Stigy]

I agree with what you’re saying, I’ve been wrong routed countless times in my driving career and I have sat there and thought ‘if I’d have accepted that, you’d have set me up for having an incident on my SOL record’ but at the same time, the Signallers in fairness have always been apologetic, thankful (for me stopping and challenging them) and decent about it, they’ve got to carry on doing their safety critical job afterwards and I would hate to set them up in a bad mindset for the aftermath. It’s a lapse, an error and we’re all capable of
The scenario you’ve given would have actually annoyed me. That’s not a lapse, they know full well they shouldn’t be doing that and there’s no excuse.

Fully agree. At the end of the day, we’re all human after all. I’ve not been offered a wrong route but had cause to query a couple of things and signallers are generally apologetic and grateful for the query etc. There will always be people who aren’t as professional as they could be I guess. I know I’m going off on a tangent, but sometimes it’s the less significant things that get sarcastic replies and the like. As I’ve only been out by myself under a year, I am guilty of questioning one or two things maybe more seasoned drivers wouldn’t

 

[Dieseldriver]

Fully agree. At the end of the day, we’re all human after all. I’ve not been offered a wrong route but had cause to query a couple of things and signallers are generally apologetic and grateful for the query etc. There will always be people who aren’t as professional as they could be I guess. I know I’m going off on a tangent, but sometimes it’s the less significant things that get sarcastic replies and the like. As I’ve only been out by myself under a year, I am guilty of questioning one or two things maybe more seasoned drivers wouldn’t

You’re not the only one who gets that treatment from them sometimes. Most Signallers are great and a pleasure to deal with but a few of them.......
could probably say the same about some Drivers too though. Always a shame when it gets like that though.

 

[matchmaker]

Many years back I was on a Glasgow-Stirling service which takes the diverging route at Greenhill Upper Junction. It should get a flashing double yellow aspect at Castlecary. I was watching out of the window near the front of the train when we passed this signal at green...the brakes went on at this point and we stopped fairly rapidly at the next signal, also showing green.

The driver got down and "words were exchanged" over the SPT. The signal changed to red and a few minutes later changed to flashing single yellow and we set off, now on the correct route!

 

[Skie]

A planned diversion which introduces a reversal will be noticed by a fair number of non-enthusiasts, and may be worth announcing.

During the Lime Street blockade when Virgin were operating from the temporarily extended Platform 4 at Liverpool South Parkway there was no way to dispatch trains South. So this necessitated a move towards Liverpool and then a reversal at the next set of points and back down to continue the trip to Euston.

Usually got announced a few times that it was going to happen, but large numbers of people still jumped up on departure to sit in the 'correct' direction - only to then have to swap again when we stopped and resumed the journey south.

 

[ComUtoR]

Chalked up 3 wrong routes this week !

 

[Meerkat]

Chalked up 3 wrong routes this week !

They are just checking you are paying attention!

 

[Oxfordblues]

All the Blackpool North to Manchester Victoria DMUs were routed via Chorley with one exception: a summer Saturday service routed via Standish, the Whelley, De Trafford Jn, Hindley North Jn and Atherton. I rode it once just to "do" the line and we stopped at Euxton Jn because the signaller had misrouted us. The driver had to climb down and ask the signaller to correct his error. Confusingly the headcode was the same as for the Chorley line.

 

[LAX54]

Out of interest, is it theoretically possible that a train could be given the wrong route where there is no way for the driver to know until it's too late to stop in time? I'm thinking like, a set of points where, by the time the driver sees a signal showing which way the points are set, it would be impossible to stop the train before the points?

Trowse Junction Up Main, is quite close, you get a green on Norwich side of the bridge, but you cannot see CO552 until you clear the bridge, even then if you brake fairly sharp you can stop, but it is not unknown for a train to pass CO552 by coach length or two

there was one there many moons ago, Signaller long retired, A Peterborough train was wrong routed Up Main at Trowse. took the route, did not stop, or at the next signal (CO546), was stopped by putting a signal back to red at Swainsthorpe, Driver came on the SPT, had not realised he had gone the wrong way !
Issue then was... he did not sign the route ahead, or back towards Norwich !
Had to source an 'Anglia' Driver, who took train forward to Stowmarket, then Ely where there was a new Driver to take to Peterboro.

 

[philthetube]

Thanks for the interesting explanation (and to all the other drivers/etc. here who have explained how this works).

Another thing puzzles me... 3 minutes? A couple of people have mentioned that. Is it not possible for the signaller to simply change the points to the correct route and then - assuming the correct route is clear - the train be good to go immediately? Why the additional 3 minute block?

If it is needed for a signal to be returned from green to red, the signaller will require the driver to confirm that the train will not be moved, (at least on the underground.

 

[Alteran Ancient]

A few years ago I was on an SE service to Blackfriars (morning peak) that was routed into the Northbound through platform rather than one of the bays. I was told that the driver apparently didn't think much of it because "they sign all the platforms there", but as a following Thameslink train was fouling the switch just outside of the station, the driver had no way to get his 375 out of the way and not mess up the Thameslink rush hour.

Normally, you'd be able to use the crossover between Blackfriars and City Thameslink to switch sides and swap ends, but 375s and Networkers are apparently no longer permitted north of Blackfriars since the OHLEs went in, so the only way to solve the problem was to force the driver of the 700 to swap ends and head back towards E&C.

And then I was informed that the same thing happened a few weeks later!

 

[ComUtoR]

A few years ago I was on an SE service to Blackfriars (morning peak) that was routed into the Northbound through platform rather than one of the bays.

This is now considered to be a wrong route; specifically because of the incident you mentioned.

 

[Pinza-C55]

I was working a southbound HST (as the guard) in the late 80's from Doncaster and we got as far as the junction for the GN & GE Joint Line where we were signalled for the Joint Line. Only then did the driver realise he didn't know the route or have a pilot. As far as I remember he had to change ends and we went back to Doncaster to pick the pilot up.

 

[quattromatt]

I was driving a 308 out of Leeds one morning and the box had routed me to Harrogate so I stopped and contacted the Bobby “I thought you were for Harrogate driver” “I haven’t got enough batteries to get there can I go to skipton please”