What's the most grim rail service available in the UK?

[Jozhua]

(Apologies mods if this belongs in general discussion)
Hey! I'm looking to hear your suggestions for most grim train route in the UK, taking into account everything from rolling stock to reliability.

Obviously we have the grim Northern commuter services, or poorly served rural communities, but services score extra points for being well travelled, yet considerably worse than other comparably well used routes.

What makes your suggested route perticularly bad and what would you do to improve it?

For members of railway staff, are there any routes that are perticularly difficult to work?

I'll post my suggestions below!

 

[DorkingMain]

The North Kent line from Dartford to Strood is a pretty miserable run.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Grim in terms of the experience? Paddington (or wherever it connects now) to Greenford. Slow and through the nastiest, most run-down parts of West London imaginable.

Improving it would require demolishing most of the surrounding area and starting again.

 

[Jozhua]

I'm nominating a few routes, including an entire TOC.

First is EMR's (formerly EMT) Liverpool - Norwich service. Four carriages that don't have enough capacity at the best of times, but frequently short formed less than that. The Castlefield section always results in a crush of passengers and delays. The 158's are probably the better part of the service and provide a decent level of comfort/speed, as well as a couple of reliable bathrooms. However, they are frequently substituted with 156/3's which often results in less capacity, more noise and slower top speed. The stop in Sheffield adds 10-20 minutes to the overall journey time for those travelling beyond Sheffield either way and it is increasingly difficult to find reasonably priced fares on the route.

The only savior, is that Transpennine Express' 6-car 185 formations that are now possible due to the fleet upgrades, provides a much more paletable option for those who value their sanity.

ALL CROSS COUNTRY ROUTES:
We all hate 221's.

Trains are far too short for demand, tickets are overpriced and there are almost zero affordable advances fares. The ones that are available offer limited/no savings, with the cost of no flexibility.

The 221's smell like poop, the interiors are cramped and a seat can be literally reserved from under you, leading to a ridiculous four hour game of musical chairs. The last place you would want to be for the UK's longest routes.

The length of routes and long dwell times, as people are rammed on the train with oversized plungers, means that services are frequently late, often 30 minutes or more.

170's are also far too short and although somewhat more spacious and bright than the 221's, the seats are incredibly low and the existence of legs is an afterthought.

HSTs are the only saving grace for the fleet, but they aren't the most reliable these days. I mostly try to avoid XC, but still have been stuck on a broken down HST set.

Grim in terms of the experience? Paddington (or wherever it connects now) to Greenford. Slow and through the nastiest, most run-down parts of West London imaginable.

Improving it would require demolishing most of the surrounding area and starting again.

In terms of overall experience, yes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I will agree that XC is a dire TOC with few if any redeeming features, though I think in "worst TOC" generally Northern probably beats it.

 

[DB]

I will agree that XC is a dire TOC with few if any redeeming features, though I think in "worst TOC" generally Northern probably beats it.

Difficult to say - both are pretty dire!

At least Northern have acquired some new and fairly new trains in the past few years.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The North Kent line from Dartford to Strood is a pretty miserable run.

Out of interest, in what way?

 

[Jozhua]

I will agree that XC is a dire TOC with few if any redeeming features, though I think in "worst TOC" generally Northern probably beats it.

You see, Northern has to deal with poorly utilised/unprofitable local routes, incredibly decrepid infrastructure and a hell of a lot of local meddling.

XC on the other hand, has a ton of passengers on what should be profitable express routes.

Difficult to say - both are pretty dire!

At least Northern have acquired some new and fairly new trains in the past few years.

Yeah, Northern has improved the quality of trains somewhat, although service has overall got worse. XC has got worse simply as they continue to get busier and capacity remains stagnant.

 

[DorkingMain]

Out of interest, in what way?

Most of the stations are incredibly basic and fairly run down. The areas it passes through are pretty rough. Major problems with antisocial behaviour, and the only views out of the window are industrial estates and chalk quarries.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You see, Northern has to deal with poorly utilised/unprofitable local routes, incredibly decrepid infrastructure and a hell of a lot of local meddling.

XC on the other hand, has a ton of passengers on what should be profitable express routes.

Yes, true. You only have to look at DB IC/non-HS ICE for what XC could be (Germany's demand is very distributed and not single-city-centric like our other IC operations), and it doesn't even come close to muster.

 

[Jozhua]

Most of the stations are incredibly basic and fairly run down. The areas it passes through are pretty rough. Major problems with antisocial behaviour, and the only views out of the window are industrial estates and chalk quarries.

The route defiantly sounds like it defines 'grim', but there are a lot of grim places in the UK, so service has to be pretty poor as well. It seems like it has fairly new rolling stock and long, frequent trains, but I haven't used the line, so the passenger experience could be much worse!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The route defiantly sounds like it defines 'grim', but there are a lot of grim places in the UK, so service has to be pretty poor as well. It seems like it has fairly new rolling stock and long, frequent trains, but I haven't used the line, so the passenger experience could be much worse!

The Flying Dentonian (one train a week, I think both directions now though? Probably off for COVID) has some grim bits, though that said I think on the northern part of the route it's quite scenic with views of the Peak.

 

[brad465]

The North Kent line from Dartford to Strood is a pretty miserable run.

Most of the stations are incredibly basic and fairly run down. The areas it passes through are pretty rough. Major problems with antisocial behaviour, and the only views out of the window are industrial estates and chalk quarries.

I agree that part of the North Kent line isn't pleasant, but the NK line from Dartford into London is even worse for every reason you state above (although substitute chalk quarries for even bleaker housing estates).

 

[cactustwirly]

I'm nominating a few routes, including an entire TOC.

First is EMR's (formerly EMT) Liverpool - Norwich service. Four carriages that don't have enough capacity at the best of times, but frequently short formed less than that. The Castlefield section always results in a crush of passengers and delays. The 158's are probably the better part of the service and provide a decent level of comfort/speed, as well as a couple of reliable bathrooms. However, they are frequently substituted with 156/3's which often results in less capacity, more noise and slower top speed. The stop in Sheffield adds 10-20 minutes to the overall journey time for those travelling beyond Sheffield either way and it is increasingly difficult to find reasonably priced fares on the route.

The only savior, is that Transpennine Express' 6-car 185 formations that are now possible due to the fleet upgrades, provides a much more paletable option for those who value their sanity.

ALL CROSS COUNTRY ROUTES:
We all hate 221's.

Trains are far too short for demand, tickets are overpriced and there are almost zero affordable advances fares. The ones that are available offer limited/no savings, with the cost of no flexibility.

The 221's smell like poop, the interiors are cramped and a seat can be literally reserved from under you, leading to a ridiculous four hour game of musical chairs. The last place you would want to be for the UK's longest routes.

The length of routes and long dwell times, as people are rammed on the train with oversized plungers, means that services are frequently late, often 30 minutes or more.

170's are also far too short and although somewhat more spacious and bright than the 221's, the seats are incredibly low and the existence of legs is an afterthought.

HSTs are the only saving grace for the fleet, but they aren't the most reliable these days. I mostly try to avoid XC, but still have been stuck on a broken down HST set.


In terms of overall experience, yes.

None of this compares to the Central line at rush hour, where the trains are so physically full that you can't actually board the first 10 trains.
I don't get the moaning about castlefield, so you had to stand and were delayed for a few minutes? So what that's pretty normal for rush hour.
Plus it's nowhere as busy as London Bridge or East Croydon, to name a few.

 

[DorkingMain]

The route defiantly sounds like it defines 'grim', but there are a lot of grim places in the UK, so service has to be pretty poor as well. It seems like it has fairly new rolling stock and long, frequent trains, but I haven't used the line, so the passenger experience could be much worse!

Mostly Networkers down there. It definitely is frequent now - it used to be one train every 30 mins at the intermediate stations, and it would be Southeastern's first choice to cut the stoppers while fasts blasted through.

 

[Bletchleyite]

None of this compares to the Central line at rush hour, where the trains are so physically full that you can't actually board the first 10 trains.
I don't get the moaning about castlefield, so you had to stand and were delayed for a few minutes? So what that's pretty normal for rush hour.
Plus it's nowhere as busy as London Bridge or East Croydon, to name a few.

The problem with Castlefield is less the individual services and more the fact that a problem on it (which there is most days in some form) knackers the punctuality of services most of the way across the North because so much goes through it.

I wouldn't say that most of the individual services that pass through it are all that grim.

 

[Halish Railway]

The Reading to Newcastle services are hateful. In concept it sounds brilliant - A limited stop Intercity service outside of London? Sign me up! Unfortunately it’s ruined by using the worst trains I have ever been on and sitting around at stations for ages. This example linked here sits at Derby for almost TWENTY MINUTES! https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C86251/2020-09-15/detailed

I also don’t really enjoy the Diggle line locals on weekends/Bank holidays due to the amount of roudy and occasionally drunk pub crawlers, though this is less of a problem at the minute.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Reading to Newcastle services are hateful. In concept it sounds brilliant - A limited stop Intercity service outside of London? Sign me up! Unfortunately it’s ruined by using the worst trains I have ever been on and sitting around at stations for ages. This example linked here sits at Derby for almost TWENTY MINUTES! https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C86251/2020-09-15/detailed

Mid-route layovers are how you make a route like that punctual. But I agree, the Voyagers are well below par for that sort of service. For a long, slow service you need lots of capacity, high comfort and good on-board facilities like catering as well as space to use laptops etc.

 

[cactustwirly]

The Reading to Newcastle services are hateful. In concept it sounds brilliant - A limited stop Intercity service outside of London? Sign me up! Unfortunately it’s ruined by using the worst trains I have ever been on and sitting around at stations for ages. This example linked here sits at Derby for almost TWENTY MINUTES! https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C86251/2020-09-15/detailed

I also don’t really enjoy the Diggle line locals on weekends/Bank holidays due to the amount of roudy and occasionally drunk pub crawlers, though this is less of a problem at the minute.

Those aren't too bad, it's the Manchester to Bournemouth services that are bad.
Horrific overcrowding throughout the train.

 

[Alex27]

Under normal circumstances it's safe to assume that everything between birmingham and the South Coast on XC is crammed (Not just that though)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Under normal circumstances it's safe to assume that everything between birmingham and the South Coast on XC is crammed

Fixed that for you

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

Reminds me of a book about c**p towns, Kingston upon Hull and Alresford were mentioned, but people loved the towns they claimed to hate, I guess that does not apply here

 

[Bletchleyite]

Reminds me of a book about c**p towns, Kingston upon Hull and Alresford were mentioned, but people loved the towns they claimed to hate, I guess that does not apply here

I certainly don't love XC. At least Northern has some decent scenic routes - most of XC isn't even that pretty!

 

[Islineclear3_1]

St Pancras to Stratford and Ebbsfleet (HS1)

 

[Parallel]

I always found Wolverhampton - Birmingham New Street to be grim, the surroundings leave little to be desired.

I know some quite like it but I have never liked the Severn Beach line much. The terminus areas of Avonmouth and Severn Beach are also dire.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I always found Wolverhampton - Birmingham New Street to be grim, the surroundings leave little to be desired.

I actually quite like that, just as I do the approaches to the south London termini - it's more interesting than grim, with huge amounts of stuff going on. I suppose it's the UK's Ruhrgebiet.

The approach to Paddington, on the other hand, is just unpleasant. There's something about west London, it's just swathe after swathe of grimness.

 

[thedbdiboy]

ALL CROSS COUNTRY ROUTES:
We all hate 221's.

Trains are far too short for demand, tickets are overpriced and there are almost zero affordable advances fares.

If the trains are too short for the demand, how come the tickets are too expensive? Either the tickets are too cheap and the trains are overcrowded, or they're too expensive and the trains are empty......

 

[4COR]

I think the worst I've done from memory might be Liverpool Street to Chingford and vice versa on the old (315?) stock. Liverpool St is a grim start, then you spend an age in the dark in tunnels, emerge and then travel through Bethnal Green, London Fields etc.

There is a brief respite crossing the Grand Union, and a bit of greenery at Lea Valley, but then the view seems to be flats, backs of houses and warehouses all the way to Chingford. It seems to take an age for such a short journey, and feels like it crawls the whole way.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Sittingbourne to Sheerness (even though quite a frequent service) has always struck me as pretty grim. Individual highlights like the steelworks have gone but the overall picture is just so uninspiring unless you catch a glimpse of a Thames Sailing Barge on The Swale. And when you arrive in Sheerness the area's two claims to fame are being the first to abandon electric trams (over 100 years ago) and a sunken shipload of high explosives that could detonate and flood the entire place with a tsunami at any moment.

 

[Romsey]

Or the mandatory reservation system doesn't work ......
You're told to book in advance, but seats were not available to book for last weekend five days out.

It's a great pity that the X34 limited stop bus service from Southampton to Oxford folded around 1990 due to poor loadings. I suspect it would make a killing now with the thinned out XC service south of Reading which doesn't call at Winchester.