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When was smoking abolished on National Rail services?

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JohnElliott

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I'm sure the trains on the London-Brighton route were fully non-smoking in the early 1990s. Well, apart from a handful of die-hards I saw once or twice in a standard-class compartment of a 4-CIG driving trailer, complete with home-made 'Smoking' stickers on the windows.
 

LSWR Cavalier

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When a bit of smoking was still allowed on German trains, on the ICE 1 sets smoking was permitted in the first and last carriages only (one end first-class, the other end standard class)
 

Killingworth

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And as a smoker at the time it was a nightmare, it was often the most crowded coach on the train as fellow smokers descended from all other parts of the train to light up!
As a non-smoker that was all too clear! Travelling out of St Pancras the front coach of the HST would be non-smoking but the second was the smoker. Walking through the train to get to that haven of clean air it wasn't just the smell. You could see the thick haze, and the roof of that carriage was a darkening brown colour when the rest of the train was still cream!

It was much the same on double deck buses where smoking wasn't allowed on the bottom deck so the upper saloon was similarly hazy with a brown roof.
 

AY1975

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As a non-smoker that was all too clear! Travelling out of St Pancras the front coach of the HST would be non-smoking but the second was the smoker. Walking through the train to get to that haven of clean air it wasn't just the smell. You could see the thick haze, and the roof of that carriage was a darkening brown colour when the rest of the train was still cream!

It was much the same on double deck buses where smoking wasn't allowed on the bottom deck so the upper saloon was similarly hazy with a brown roof.
In about 1997, shortly after privatisation, Midland Mainline moved the Standard Class smoking coach on its HSTs from Coach B to Coach A (the TGS), which IMO is what BR should have done in the first place (or at least when they first changed from each coach being half smoking and half non-smoking to having smoking in one coach only in about the late 1980s).

At the same time MML abolished smoking in First Class. Some trains, such as the Class 159s on Waterloo-Exeter and some InterCity CrossCountry trains, had already been completely non-smoking in First Class since the early to mid '90s I think (the 159s were right from the start).

It was often claimed that installing a partition with a door to segregate the smoking and non-smoking sections would prevent the air-conditioning from working efficiently, hence MML's decision to ban smoking in First Class. Yet Virgin West Coast put partitions with doors in its Open Firsts that were half smoking and half non-smoking and that were marshalled next to the DVT, and GNER did it on the Mark 4s with the Mallard refurbishment (and installed improved air extraction in the coaches with a smoking section).
 

Inversnecky

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I could never understand why a coach was half smoking and half non smoking, so there was no escape from the fumes, rather than having a smoking only carriage and fully non-smoking carriages.
 

PG

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I could never understand why a coach was half smoking and half non smoking, so there was no escape from the fumes, rather than having a smoking only carriage and fully non-smoking carriages.
Probably a hang-over from the days of loco+rake of Mk1 coaches. Provided you had a BG (brake guard) in the formation pretty much any other coaches upto the required number could be coupled together to form a rake. Having mixed smoking and non smoking coaches obviously made it easier and with corridor compartments there wasn't the problem with smoke drift.
 

Gloster

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Probably a hang-over from the days of loco+rake of Mk1 coaches. Provided you had a BG (brake guard) in the formation pretty much any other coaches upto the required number could be coupled together to form a rake. Having mixed smoking and non smoking coaches obviously made it easier and with corridor compartments there wasn't the problem with smoke drift.
BG was Brake Gangway and was the type with no passenger accommodation, just a compartment for the guard, and gangway connection to the rest of the train. Just about anything with the type code starting with a B could be used, and there were quite a few including BPOT (Post Office Tender with Brake Compartment) or BSOT (Brake Second Open with Trolley Micro-Buffet).
 

peteb

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Air China still permits smoking on flights. When the flight departs a UK airport. They are not allowed to smoke on board when the door is open (as it's subject to UK laws) soon as the door is closed it is permitted.


Air koryo as well.
Worth noting for future travel post covid........either a great incentive to avoid or use depending on your habits.
 

AY1975

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Probably a hang-over from the days of loco+rake of Mk1 coaches. Provided you had a BG (brake guard) in the formation pretty much any other coaches upto the required number could be coupled together to form a rake. Having mixed smoking and non smoking coaches obviously made it easier and with corridor compartments there wasn't the problem with smoke drift.
Exactly, until probably about the mid to late 1980s most trains (apart from HSTs and most multiple units) weren't formed of fixed formation sets of coaches.

Also, until the 1980s and 1990s smoking was much more socially acceptable than it is today and people weren't so aware of the dangers of exposure to second-hand smoke. I think the term "passive smoking" only became part of most ordinary people's vocabulary from about the late '80s and early '90s onwards, hence the change to one entire smoking coach per train with all other coaches being fully non-smoking at about that time. I remember the letters page of the InterCity magazine, a free magazine for passengers on IC trains, being full of complaints from people who had reserved non-smoking seats but been allocated places right next to the smoking section.

Changing to one entire coach for smoking was easy enough in Standard Class, but in First Class it was more difficult because at that time there were probably still thought to be enough FC passengers who smoked for BR to feel that they needed to be catered for but not enough to fill a whole coach.

In terms of there not being a problem with smoke drift in side corridor compartments, that wasn't entirely true. Smoke could drift from smoking compartments into the corridor, and from the corridor into non-smoking compartments in the days when it was allowed in the corridor (which it was in the old days).
 

PG

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In terms of there not being a problem with smoke drift in side corridor compartments, that wasn't entirely true. Smoke could drift from smoking compartments into the corridor, and from the corridor into non-smoking compartments in the days when it was allowed in the corridor (which it was in the old days).
While thats true, back in the '80's I think the majority of non smokers would have found separate smoking and non smoking compartments far preferable to the half smoking and half non smoking open plan arrangements which were then the case on open saloon stock.

BR took a bit of a backwards step with the introduction of the Sprinters which were half and half in one coach, though given they were smaller than the loco hauled trains they were replacing I doubt that provision of more than 25% of accommodation for smoking would have been acceptable.
 

47827

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Virgin West Coast and XC both ended it towards the end of summer 2001 which coincided with the gradual appearence of new rolling stock. There were lots of announcements and signs appearing at the time warning people of the changes.

Recall the leading tso in standard on the West Coast DVT sets being the smoke den. Often frequented it, generally whenever diesel power was involved to Holyhead or on various diversionary routes (probably having a small life shortening affect). Rarely used it on XC as the BSO was the leading coach normally except when locked out or occasionally on the wrong end so you would just get the smell from coach B or occasionally have to walk through it rather than be tempted to sit in it.

One thing I do recall is that the last time I crossed paths with surviving ex smoking coaches some still had staining on the light casing from those times with Ash trays generally glued shut though in recent years.
 

AY1975

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While thats true, back in the '80's I think the majority of non smokers would have found separate smoking and non smoking compartments far preferable to the half smoking and half non smoking open plan arrangements which were then the case on open saloon stock.

BR took a bit of a backwards step with the introduction of the Sprinters which were half and half in one coach, though given they were smaller than the loco hauled trains they were replacing I doubt that provision of more than 25% of accommodation for smoking would have been acceptable.
I think you could also say that BR took a bit of a backwards step with the Mark 2Bs compared to the Mark 1s, 2As and vacuum braked Mark 2s, and again with the Mark 3s compared to the Mark 2Fs.

The Mark 1s and early Mark 2s had a centre vestibule between the two saloons (and on the early Mark 2s the partition either side of the centre vestibule had a sliding door) whereas the Mark 2B/C/D/E/F Open Standards had no centre vestibule and only a single partition (with no door, only a doorway) segregating the smoking and non-smoking sections.

However, that was at least marginally better than the Mark 3s, which just had an almost useless quarter width partition between the two sections. No-one had heard of passive smoking back in the 1960s and '70s, though, so drifting smoke probably wasn't seen as as much of a problem as it was by the late '80s and early '90s.

Over the years the amount of smoking accommodation on trains gradually decreased and the amount of non-smoking accommodation increased as the percentage of smokers amongst the population declined. Already in the 1980s BR started having one completely non-smoking coach on InterCity trains (presumably this already started on HSTs in the late '70s with the introduction of the TGSs), then this was later increased to two coaches per train until the 1990s arrangement of just one smoking coach per train was eventually settled upon.

For a time many Mark 1 and Mark 2 TSOs had the bay at the inner end of the smoking section made non-smoking so that there were five non-smoking and three smoking bays per coach. Most non-smokers probably wouldn't have been too keen to sit in the one non-smoking bay in the otherwise smoking section, though!

By contrast, in the early days of Mark 1s in the 1950s only two out of eight bays in an Open Standard (or Tourist Open Second as they were then known) and two out of the eight compartments in a Corridor Second were non-smoking. Because of that, as well as a partition either side of the centre vestibule Mark 1 TSOs also had a partition halfway along the saloon at the non-toilet end of the coach as two bays of that saloon were non-smoking and the rest of the coach was smoking. How times have changed!
 
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broadgage

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IHG (Holiday Inn etc.) used to do it on their booking system not long since like select a smoking/non-smoking room. These days it doesn't as it susses out where you are.

Who was the first? as in a TOC.

South West Trains banned smoking in first class on Waterloo/Exeter services when the 3 car DMUs replaced full length loco hauled trains. The much reduced train length prevented having first class smoking and first class non smoking.
Not long afterwards they prohibited smoking on all their trains.
 

JonathanH

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South West Trains banned smoking in first class on Waterloo/Exeter services when the 3 car DMUs replaced full length loco hauled trains. The much reduced train length prevented having first class smoking and first class non smoking.
Not long afterwards they prohibited smoking on all their trains.
Quite a long time between 159s being introduced with no first class smoking accommodation (1993) and smoking being banned in standard class (2004). First class had been in compartments on the loco hauled trains.
 

AY1975

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I think SWT were the last TOC to ban it in 2005 and it seemed the only reason they did ban it was due to the introduction of air-con 450s. They were quite happy to let smoking continue until the end of slam door stock and, as a smoker at the time, I was fortunate to commute on slam door stock right up until the end.
Actually SWT banned it in 2004, one year before the slam door EMUs were withdrawn.

BR introduced a blanket smoking ban in 1993 across all Network SouthEast trains with the exception of the South Western Division where smoking accommodation was retained on all routes except for suburban services. I think this was because at that time the journey times on Waterloo-Exeter and Waterloo-Weymouth were still deemed too long for smokers to be expected to go without their "fix", and the slam door units did occasionally get used on the Weymouth line in place of 442s (there may even have been the odd booked working for slam door stock on the route) so it was simpler to retain smoking accommodation on them than to have to affix or remove temporary no-smoking signs depending which route they were on. It did mean that journeys of between one and two hours on the SWD (which became South West Trains) still had trains with smoking accommodation when journeys of similar length on the Central and South Eastern Divisions did not.

Upon privatisation SWT inherited this policy from BR and was happy to carry on with it until the 444s and 450s started to enter service. The 458s were also fully non-smoking from the start (as were all new trains introduced since privatisation).

I seem to recall that SWT banned smoking on the 442s in early 2004 (a few months before doing so on the slam door stock from the May timetable change that year) because of problems with cigarette ash getting into the air conditioning.
 
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subk2010

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Air China still permits smoking on flights. When the flight departs a UK airport. They are not allowed to smoke on board when the door is open (as it's subject to UK laws) soon as the door is closed it is permitted.


Air koryo as well.
Air China prohibits customers from smoking on flights since 1997. It is against the regulation to smoke.
 
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