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When Will It All Go Wrong For The Tories/ Johnson?

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Kez

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There seems to be evolving a narrative that Johnson etc should be judged over 'the whole piece' (an example being (a transport minister ?) on the Today programme this morning), so that his misdemeanours should be regarded in the context of his 'successes' such as Brexit and the vaccination programme. Are we supposed to now judge Jimmy Saville in the same way ?
 
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brad465

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Anne-Marie Morris was the one Tory rebel on Labour's vote to cut VAT yesterday. While the opposition motion didn't pass, the Tory party have nonetheless decided to remove the whip from her:


Boris Johnson has seen his parliamentary majority reduced after the Conservatives removed the party whip from a backbencher who voted with Labour over the cost of living crisis.

Anne Marie Morris will now sit in the Commons as an independent after she voted for Labour’s opposition day motion proposing a VAT cut on energy bills on Tuesday.

“It is deeply disappointing to have had the whip removed by the government – especially on a matter of simply standing up for what I believed to be the best interests of my constituents,” Mr Morris said on Wednesday.

The MP for Newton Abbot added: “I believe removing VAT is the right thing to do and I won’t apologise for supporting measures that would help my hard-working constituents at a time when the cost of living is rising.”

A group of 20 Tories have already called for VAT to be cut from fuel bills, but the government said it could not allow a Tory MP to vote for a motion letting Labour seize control of the Commons order paper.

Aside from slightly reducing the number of letters needed to force a no-confidence motion in Johnson (although probably one less vote against him in a vote as well), one wonders if this will only cause greater resentment among other backbenchers?

Also, Sunak has posted on Twitter a photo and description of being in Ilfracombe to meet a pharmaceutical firm. Given Ilfracombe is deep Devon and he said he's there this morning, he clearly wants to be as far from Johnson and Parliament as possible:


Excited to be in Ilfracombe this morning with @SelaineSaxby. Im visiting @PallCorporation who protect & purify pharmaceutical drugs including a majority of UK Covid vaccines. They’re announcing £60 million of investment at this site creating 200 new local jobs #PlanForJobs

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DynamicSpirit

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Aside from slightly reducing the number of letters needed to force a no-confidence motion in Johnson (although probably one less vote against him in a vote as well), one wonders if this will only cause greater resentment among other backbenchers?

That seems pretty harsh - rather reminiscent of the removal of the whip from lots of Tory MPs when Boris first became PM. I wonder if he's trying to fall back to the strategy of trying to crush any open discontent. If so, I think you're right, it'll just cause greater resentment amongst his MPs.

On another note - a blanket VAT cut on energy? That's Labour's solution to rising energy prices? So much for Labour's green credentials! :'( Some targeted help for people who need it I could understand, but Labour's proposal is just populist insanity. I'm actually rather glad that only one Tory went for it.
 

SteveM70

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So, he admits going to the party but didn't realise it was a party.

I suppose the wine and beer and tables full of snacks weren't enough of an indicator (or different enough to other days, perhaps)

He is a deeply unpleasant individual with no sense of shame
 

GusB

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That seems pretty harsh - rather reminiscent of the removal of the whip from lots of Tory MPs when Boris first became PM. I wonder if he's trying to fall back to the strategy of trying to crush any open discontent. If so, I think you're right, it'll just cause greater resentment amongst his MPs.

On another note - a blanket VAT cut on energy? That's Labour's solution to rising energy prices? So much for Labour's green credentials! :'( Some targeted help for people who need it I could understand, but Labour's proposal is just populist insanity. I'm actually rather glad that only one Tory went for it.
A blanket VAT cut is the easiest way to alleviate the impact of rising energy prices. I've heard so much waffle from the Tories who have been going on about cold weather payments, warm home discounts and winter fuel payments. These are conditional benefits, so a family which consists of working people on low incomes will not receive any help at all.
 

SteveM70

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A blanket VAT cut is the easiest way to alleviate the impact of rising energy prices. I've heard so much waffle from the Tories who have been going on about cold weather payments, warm home discounts and winter fuel payments. These are conditional benefits, so a family which consists of working people on low incomes will not receive any help at all.

Exactly, and its an expensive way of administering the change. The counter argument of "the rich would benefit most as they have bigger bills" is I think largely bogus, because its the poor who benefit most as a proportion of their means to pay
 

bspahh

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David Allen Green wrote: "Highly important thread from barrister @AdamWagner1
, who knows the coronavirus regulations better than any other person"
https://twitter.com/AdamWagner1/status/1481239761570390021
The Johnson apology was carefully worded and obviously lawyered. He said that he attended because he "believed implicitly that this was a work event", that "with hindsight" he should have sent everyone back inside, and "technically" it could be said to fall within the guidance.

The apology - when read carefully - was to the millions of people who "wouldn’t see it in that way", but because he also said technically it could be said to fall within the guidance he is implicitly saying the millions of people are wrong in their interpretation.

This was only what *he* thought the event was. He "went into the garden to thank groups of staff for 25 minutes [he] believed implicitly this was a work event". So defence is a personal one only and leaves open the possibility the event was something else without him realising

This is very much about his personal liability - he is implicitly denying he knew what the event was, had seen the email or had anything to do with it. Because here's the key point: on the wording of email ("bring your own booze") this couldn't technically have been a work event

Although, he might say that even a boozy party for staff was "reasonably necessary for work" to thank staff for their hard work during the pandemic. I doubt that would hold weight given the govt guidance at the time discouraging workplace gatherings.

Also, how do you believe something implicitly? Is the point that he didn't really understand the rules he had set? Or not particularly engaged with them?

Also, PM has probably been advised that the only possible personal liability would be as an accessory to others' criminal offences (he wasn't outside of his home so not subject to the restriction on movement regulation). So has to say he "implicitly" didn't believe it broke rules

The ultimate point is that at the time if anyone had asked the Prime Minister or Health Minister whether it was lawful to have a social work gathering outdoors for 100 with alcohol and food they would have answered with a very hard "no". This is all ex post facto face saving

It is proper nonsense and doesn't make any sense at all given what the government were telling everyone else to do at the time.

Also, if any photos or video appear and it looks like a party then the whole defence of "I didn't know it was a party" goes out of the window.

The irony of it being the prime minister, not his “Islington lawyer” opponent, excusing his actions on a “technicality“

Its interesting that his defence is that Boris Johnson thought it was a work meeting. Did his wife think it was a work meeting?
 

Busaholic

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Anne-Marie Morris was the one Tory rebel on Labour's vote to cut VAT yesterday. While the opposition motion didn't pass, the Tory party have nonetheless decided to remove the whip from her:


Anne-Marie Morris has been 'going native' down here in SW England for a year or so now, and is popular with the large contingent of Tory MPs in Devon and Cornwall, most of whom are backbenchers. My MP in St Ives constituency opined that the PM should 'consider his position' if he admitted attending the party, which he now has done. This was an hour or two before PMQ.
 

skyhigh

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Personally I'm livid. I'm not particularly a fan of any political party - I've voted Labour, Lib Dem and Conservative over the years. Personally I felt that while Boris wasn't doing brilliantly, anyone would have struggled in the situation he found himself. I lost my dad during the pandemic (not directly due to covid) and I missed out on the last few months we could have had together as a family by following the rules. To now find out that Boris was having a party in his garden at a similar time to when police were filming walkers with drones is beyond reproach. He is a compulsive liar and should be nowhere near power. He needs to go.
 

75A

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Personally I'm livid. I'm not particularly a fan of any political party - I've voted Labour, Lib Dem and Conservative over the years. Personally I felt that while Boris wasn't doing brilliantly, anyone would have struggled in the situation he found himself. I lost my dad during the pandemic (not directly due to covid) and I missed out on the last few months we could have had together as a family by following the rules. To now find out that Boris was having a party in his garden at a similar time to when police were filming walkers with drones is beyond reproach. He is a compulsive liar and should be nowhere near power. He needs to go.
To be replaced by whom?
The Invisible man who's had a charisma bypass.
 

SteveM70

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Well, if he honestly thought it was a work meeting with trestle tables of party food and copious booze, it makes you wonder what all the other work meetings were like. (And even if we accept that to be the case, it then breaches the civil service rules about alcohol in the workplace)
 

nw1

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There seems to be evolving a narrative that Johnson etc should be judged over 'the whole piece' (an example being (a transport minister ?) on the Today programme this morning), so that his misdemeanours should be regarded in the context of his 'successes' such as Brexit and the vaccination programme. Are we supposed to now judge Jimmy Saville in the same way ?
Brexit? Success? ;)

That seems pretty harsh - rather reminiscent of the removal of the whip from lots of Tory MPs when Boris first became PM. I wonder if he's trying to fall back to the strategy of trying to crush any open discontent. If so, I think you're right, it'll just cause greater resentment amongst his MPs.

On another note - a blanket VAT cut on energy? That's Labour's solution to rising energy prices? So much for Labour's green credentials! :'( Some targeted help for people who need it I could understand, but Labour's proposal is just populist insanity. I'm actually rather glad that only one Tory went for it.

Really? At one time, not so long ago, there was no VAT on energy. It was introduced on 1 April 1994 (see https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/RP97-87/RP97-87.pdf)

Populist or not, it's an excellent idea to remove it. VAT should be for non-essential things, not essentials such as energy. Energy bills as we all know are high at the moment, and making the cost more bearable to people is a good idea.

I realise we are not in a great position financially, but given VAT on fuel is a relatively new innovation there are other ways of raising money. We didn't need VAT on fuel in the relatively recent past, even during recessions so do we need it now?

As for what has happened to Ms Morris, well I'm sure she wound me up at some time in the past (can't remember what over) but for this case, she did absolutely the right thing. It's a shame we have a system where MPs are punished for not following the party line like moronic sheep.
 
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Dai Corner

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Brexit? Success? ;)



Really? At one time, not so long ago, there was no VAT on energy. It was introduced on 1 April 1994 (see https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/RP97-87/RP97-87.pdf)

Populist or not, it's an excellent idea to remove it. VAT should be for non-essential things, not essentials such as energy. Energy bills as we all know are high at the moment, and making the cost more bearable to people is a good idea.

As for what has happened to Ms Morris, well I'm sure she wound me up at some time in the past (can't remember what over) but for this case, she did absolutely the right thing. It's a shame we have a system where MPs are punished for not following the party line like moronic sheep.
Reading that document, I note that it was it was the Conservatives who introduced VAT on energy. They had to as it is an EU requirement. Labour later lowered it to the lowest allowable rate of 5%
 

nw1

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Reading that document, I note that it was it was the Conservatives who introduced VAT on energy. They had to as it is an EU requirement. Labour later lowered it to the lowest allowable rate of 5%

One of the things the EU got wrong, I will admit. But I doubt it was uppermost in the minds of the Brexiters, most of whom voted to retain it yesterday,
But given that VAT on essentials is one of the less-fair taxes, it should be the first to be cut and last to be raised IMO. And VAT on fuel didn't exist as recently as 1993.
 

brad465

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Reading that document, I note that it was it was the Conservatives who introduced VAT on energy. They had to as it is an EU requirement. Labour later lowered it to the lowest allowable rate of 5%
My understanding is had they kept it at 0% then the EU wouldn't have challenged it, but raising it to 8% meant from then it couldn't go lower than 5%, without all member states agreeing to remove the minimum rate. Labour did as you say though lower it as much as they could.




Scottish Tory Leader has called for Johnson to resign.
 
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kermit

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The Prince Andrew news couldn't have been better timed in Boris's clutching-at-straws world!
 

MattRat

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The Prince Andrew news couldn't have been better timed in Boris's clutching-at-straws world!
You think that will stop the MSM. Boris is pretty much the scapegoat now for the parties, despite a lot more people being there....
 

alex397

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You think that will stop the MSM. Boris is pretty much the scapegoat now for the parties, despite a lot more people being there....
Well, he is the Prime Minister, it’s no wonder he is getting the most attention! He should be setting the example. Like with businesses and organisations, it all starts from the top.
 
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dgl

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Well, he is the Prime Minister, it’s no wonder he is getting the most attention! He should be setting the example. Like with businesses and organisations, it all starts from the top.
Yes, you can't make rules, even more so if it's to stop people getting ill, and then have a flagrant disregard for them.
 

MattRat

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Well, he is the Prime Minister, it’s no wonder he is getting the most attention! He should be setting the example. Like with businesses and organisations, it all starts from the top.
I'm not saying he shouldn't be purged, but we should also find every name that was also there, and purge them as well.
 

alex397

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I'm not saying he shouldn't be purged, but we should also find every name that was also there, and purge them as well.
I do agree. It’s likely we will find out about them eventually. I hope so anyway.
 

nanstallon

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Johnson and Air Miles Andy sum up what is so wrong with feudal and increasingly authoritarian Britain. Whips being imposed for every vote (remember the vote to let Patterson off for corruption?) removes MP's freedom to vote according to conscience.

I hope that in due course Anne-marie Morris as an Independent trounces the Tory (increasingly a fascist party) candidate. And if/when Andy is told to pay damages to Ms Giuffre, the money comes out of his own (or Mrs Windsor's) pocket, not the taxpayers'. High time that Britain became a genuine democracy, of which I could be a proud citizen.
 

ainsworth74

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Problem is, there was likely a lot of the MSM media there, and I doubt they'd report on themselves.
I doubt it for the one that's in the headlines now. The 20 May 2020 party sounds like it was No 10 staff only from what I've read.
 
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