When Will It All Go Wrong For The Tories/ Johnson?

[87 027]

That may well be the case, but the ultimate responsibility for overlooking all such aspects concerning the conduct of civil service staff lies fairly and squarely on the shoulders of the Cabinet Secretary, whose responsibility is noted above by your good self.

Quite but broadly speaking there are two sorts of civil servants. Firstly there are what people think of as the traditional impartial 'permanent' civil service. Secondly there are the special advisers (SPADs) who are chosen by Ministers to give advice with a political dimension (think Dominic Cummings etc.). They are allowed to represent political party viewpoints but are nevertheless to formalise their position are also given temporary appointments as civil servants.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Quite but broadly speaking there are two sorts of civil servants. Firstly there are what people think of as the traditional impartial 'permanent' civil service. Secondly there are the special advisers (SPADs) who are chosen by Ministers to give advice with a political dimension (think Dominic Cummings etc.). They are allowed to represent political party viewpoints but are nevertheless to formalise their position are also given temporary appointments as civil servants.

What percentage of normally-accepted civil servants fall into your first category above and what percentage of those second mentioned are there?

 

[DerekC]

What percentage of normally-accepted civil servants fall into your first category above and what percentage of those second mentioned are there?

In a normal department the percentage of SPADs is very small - at a guess there might be a dozen or so in a department of several thousand. However I would imagine that 10 Downing Street has a much bigger proportion.

 

[87 027]

In a normal department the percentage of SPADs is very small - at a guess there might be a dozen or so in a department of several thousand. However I would imagine that 10 Downing Street has a much bigger proportion.

Yes, not many, but their proximity to Ministers and the PM gives them a particular influence. I mentioned Dominic Cummings above but in the interests of balance I should also have mentioned Alastair Campbell from a previous era.

Whilst not an official source I was amused by this description:

One difference between permanent civil servants and Special Advisers is that the latter are usually fiercely loyal to their Minister, on whose career they themselves depend, and sensitive to what they perceive as disloyal criticism. For instance, it is quite OK to ask a Private Secretary what on earth caused the Minister to say such and such a thing to a visitor. The Private Secretary will explain what went wrong, or acknowledge that the Minister made a mistake, and then you can get on and loyally sort out the resultant problem. But if you put the same question to a special adviser, they will often go into defensive mode and/or, even worse, tell the Minister what you said, which hardly helps build up a long term relationship. So it is best to give SpAds the clear impression that you believe that their Minister walks on water. They will suspect that you are lying but respect you for it.

UK Civil Service - Special Advisers - Homepage

civilservant.org.uk

And from the official guidance on GOV.UK

They are exempt from the general requirement that civil servants should be appointed on merit and behave with impartiality and objectivity, or that they need to retain the confidence of future governments of a different political complexion.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/832599/201612_Code_of_Conduct_for_Special_Advisers.pdf#:~:text=Special%20advisers%20are%20temporary%20civil%20servants%20appointed%20in,as%20set%20out%20in%20the%20Civil%20Service%20Code.

 

[TheBigD]

My alternative answer to the question of the OP is "42".

Probably one for the "you know you're getting old when..." thread, when you recognise references to The Hitch Hiker's Guide To The Galaxy

 

[AlterEgo]

If an entire school of children were misbehaving on a regular basis, we would be looking at the school management to know what they were doing about it. If they came back going "didn't know anything about it" we'd laugh and blame them instead of the kids.

Discipline, be that of children or adults, starts at the top. If those at the top are unable to have an effective process to manage the behaviour of those under them, then they are 100% part of the problem.

Yes, the problem of civil servants breaking the rules lies with the senior civil service. The civil service is independent from the Prime Minister. We haven’t heard too much about management at Downing Street.

That may well be the case, but the ultimate responsibility for overlooking all such aspects concerning the conduct of civil service staff lies fairly and squarely on the shoulders of the Cabinet Secretary, whose responsibility is noted above by your good self.

Much as I enjoy a good disagreement this accurately outlines the situation. Johnson is not the line manager of the civil servants.

In a normal department the percentage of SPADs is very small - at a guess there might be a dozen or so in a department of several thousand. However I would imagine that 10 Downing Street has a much bigger proportion.

There are about 40 SPADs in Downing Street although it is unclear how many have been involved in the shenanigans.

 

[Falcon1200]

junior civll servants are incandescent that people higher up have escaped scot-free

Boris certainly has not escaped scot-free ! He was fined, and his reputation (such as it was anyway) will be forever tarnished by Partygate. As time passes and events recede into history people tend to be remembered for a few defining moments, and this was his.

 

[jon0844]

I am sure Boris hoped to call an election early, knowing things are only going to get worse, but now it seems it will be done last minute - no doubt with some poor attempts to bribe the people who will have seriously suffered between now and 2023/4.

I am sure he must know he's bound to lose, and if not him, certainly many other Tories.

This makes me think all the corruption and pocket lining (including helping our friends and families through suspect contracts) is going to peak as they try and grab as much money as possible.

A bit like when Ofcom banned late night quiz channels and they got ten times worse right up to the last day.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Boris certainly has not escaped scot-free ! He was fined, and his reputation (such as it was anyway) will be forever tarnished by Partygate. As time passes and events recede into history people tend to be remembered for a few defining moments, and this was his.

Are you not sure it was the more senior of the civil servants that these junior ones were annoyed about?

There is a posting a few postings ago who confirm who their line manager is.

 

[nw1]

Saw something on the news (on a pub TV, sound down, so didn't catch the audio) about 'Boris' visiting what looked like a honey factory, in a typical publicity stunt. "Cuddly Boris visits honey factory to prove he's down with the people". It got lengthy coverage, several minutes. All I can say is that I pity those working at the factory who dislike Johnson.

But really, one of the main reasons Johnson must go is how he has divided society, in much the same way as Trump. It seems that most people have a strong opinion of him one way or the other, negative or positive. Such a divided society isn't healthy. I think the UK will only become a less divided nation if we have a government (of whatever colour) with a more neutral leader, which listens to all of us, including those of us with opinions strongly at odds with the government.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

But really, one of the main reasons Johnson must go is how he has divided society, in much the same way as Trump. It seems that most people have a strong opinion of him one way or the other, negative or positive. Such a divided society isn't healthy. I think the UK will only become a less divided nation if we have a government (of whatever colour) with a more neutral leader, which listens to all of us, including those of us with opinions strongly at odds with the government.

You may very well think that, I couldn't possibly comment.....

 

[MattRat]

Saw something on the news (on a pub TV, sound down, so didn't catch the audio) about 'Boris' visiting what looked like a honey factory, in a typical publicity stunt. "Cuddly Boris visits honey factory to prove he's down with the people". It got lengthy coverage, several minutes. All I can say is that I pity those working at the factory who dislike Johnson.

But really, one of the main reasons Johnson must go is how he has divided society, in much the same way as Trump. It seems that most people have a strong opinion of him one way or the other, negative or positive. Such a divided society isn't healthy. I think the UK will only become a less divided nation if we have a government (of whatever colour) with a more neutral leader, which listens to all of us, including those of us with opinions strongly at odds with the government.

I very much doubt many people truly like him, bar anyone who he paid off.

He was the lesser of 'two evils' compared to Labour, and whether you agree with that or not, it speaks volumes that Labour is seen as worse than the Conservatives, and could still find a way to lose the next election.

Until we have a credible opposition, he'll likely (or at least the Conservatives will likely) stay.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I very much doubt many people truly like him, bar anyone who he paid off. He was the lesser of 'two evils' compared to Labour, and whether you agree with that or not, it speaks volumes that Labour is seen as worse than the Conservatives, and could still find a way to lose the next election.

Until we have a credible opposition, he'll likely (or at least the Conservatives will likely) stay.

Any party who thought that Jeremy Corbyn or Michael Foot would be Prime Minister material deserve all they get.

 

[D6130]

I very much doubt many people truly like him, bar anyone who he paid off.

He was the lesser of 'two evils' compared to Labour, and whether you agree with that or not, it speaks volumes that Labour is seen as worse than the Conservatives, and could still find a way to lose the next election.

Until we have a credible opposition, he'll likely (or at least the Conservatives will likely) stay.

IMHO, the only way the Tories will be unseated by democratic means would be for Labour, the Lib Dems and Greens to unite in a 'progressive left' coalition and legislate to introduce proportional representation....and that's as likely to happen as the construction of Johnson's bridge to Ireland!

 

[nw1]

Any party who thought that Jeremy Corbyn or Michael Foot would be Prime Minister material deserve all they get.

Substitute "Jeremy Corbyn or Michael Foot" (with the disclaimer that I am not a Corbyn fan, and Foot was before my time) for "Boris Johnson", and we get a sentence I wholeheartedly agree with.

IMHO, the only way the Tories will be unseated by democratic means would be for Labour, the Lib Dems and Greens to unite in a 'progressive left' coalition and legislate to introduce proportional representation....and that's as likely to happen as the construction of Johnson's bridge to Ireland!

I'm a bit more optimistic of the Tories being unseated next time. Not sure about PR, sadly conservatism in voting methods seems too deeply ingrained into UK culture, but a tactical-voting approach to the next election, if done properly, could unseat the Tories. This is more likely IMO if Johnson, Patel, Raab, etc stay. If a fresh set of MOR Tories without any ties to the politics of the Johnson era take over, they would be more likely to win.

And if you're saying they won't be unseated by any method other than PR, that is a rather alarming proposition! Suggests they will be in for the long term, into the 2030s (apologies if I've misinterpreted you of course) - and again I suspect that even if they cling on in 2024, by 2029 they will almost certainly be out. It's doubtful people would put up with the same party in power for approaching a quarter-century.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Substitute "Jeremy Corbyn or Michael Foot" (with the disclaimer that I am not a Corbyn fan, and Foot was before my time) for "Boris Johnson", and we get a sentence I wholeheartedly agree with.

I do remember a light-hearted discussion programme some years ago when it was stated that the word "charisma" was one that could never be applied to Jeremy Corbyn, but that he and Ken Livingstone would both look the part of President in the former East Germany....

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Saw something on the news (on a pub TV, sound down, so didn't catch the audio) about 'Boris' visiting what looked like a honey factory, in a typical publicity stunt. "Cuddly Boris visits honey factory to prove he's down with the people". It got lengthy coverage, several minutes. All I can say is that I pity those working at the factory who dislike Johnson.

Oh for goodness sake! It's perfectly normal for Prime Ministers to go visiting places around the country - and arguably a very important part of their job to make these kinds of visits so they can talk to business people and members of the public. It's very obvious from your posts that you don't like Boris, but do you really need to go out of your way to try to interpret everything he does in the worst way possible? Can you not understand the possibility that - just like practically any other politician - he'll be doing some things because it's a normal part of his job?

(To be clear, I don't regard Boris as wonderful - I think there are both good things and bad things about his Government - just as there are good things and bad things about almost any human being. But this continual character-assassination where you (and others) seem to deliberately look only for the worst in everything that the Government does is really getting ridiculous).

 

[MattRat]

Oh for goodness sake! It's perfectly normal for Prime Ministers to go visiting places around the country - and arguably a very important part of their job to make these kinds of visits so they can talk to business people and members of the public. It's very obvious from your posts that you don't like Boris, but do you really need to go out of your way to try to interpret everything he does in the worst way possible? Can you not understand the possibility that - just like practically any other politician - he'll be doing some things because it's a normal part of his job?

(To be clear, I don't regard Boris as wonderful - I think there are both good things and bad things about his Government - just as there are good things and bad things about almost any human being. But this continual character-assassination where you (and others) seem to deliberately look only for the worst in everything that the Government does is really getting ridiculous).

I very much doubt Johnson does any of the hard work, his underlings probably handle the important stuff. Johnson is too busy partying to do any of the hard work.

 

[Shrop]

There are about 40 SPADs in Downing Street although it is unclear how many have been involved in the shenanigans.

Whilst the analogy of SPAD is understandable, I think that the drivers in Downing have simply adopted an attitude of Signals Don't Apply to Me, except that SDAM isn't a greatly acronym. If anyone can improve on this acronym, please offer it!

Boris certainly has not escaped scot-free ! He was fined, and his reputation (such as it was anyway) will be forever tarnished by Partygate. As time passes and events recede into history people tend to be remembered for a few defining moments, and this was his.

I have to disagree. £50 to Boris is nothing, and his reputation doesn't seem tarnished. Not to his (far too many) adoring fans anyway.

 

[brad465]

But really, one of the main reasons Johnson must go is how he has divided society, in much the same way as Trump. It seems that most people have a strong opinion of him one way or the other, negative or positive. Such a divided society isn't healthy. I think the UK will only become a less divided nation if we have a government (of whatever colour) with a more neutral leader, which listens to all of us, including those of us with opinions strongly at odds with the government.

"The road to fascism is lined with people telling you to stop overreacting."

 

[87 027]

Whilst the analogy of SPAD is understandable

Not meant to be an analogy, it's the abbreviation for Special Advisor i.e. a special class of temporary civil servant appointed directly by Ministers, exempt from the requirement for political neutrality that applies to the permanent civil service, and dependent on staying in favour with their Ministers for keeping their jobs (apologies if I have missed subtle humour in your post )

 

[nw1]

Oh for goodness sake! It's perfectly normal for Prime Ministers to go visiting places around the country - and arguably a very important part of their job to make these kinds of visits so they can talk to business people and members of the public. It's very obvious from your posts that you don't like Boris, but do you really need to go out of your way to try to interpret everything he does in the worst way possible? Can you not understand the possibility that - just like practically any other politician - he'll be doing some things because it's a normal part of his job?

It was only supposed to be a piece of light-hearted satire to be honest, rather than a rant. As I've said before there should always be room for satire and poking fun at politicians, particularly those you're not a fan of. Spitting Image specialised in it, often in a much more brutal way than anything here.

 

[Shrop]

Not meant to be an analogy, it's the abbreviation for Special Advisor i.e. a special class of temporary civil servant appointed directly by Ministers, exempt from the requirement for political neutrality that applies to the permanent civil service, and dependent on staying in favour with their Ministers for keeping their jobs (apologies if I have missed subtle humour in your post )

Oh dear, I think I made two mistakes here! Firstly I meant to say "acronym", rather than "analogy". And secondly, the acronym I was thinking of was Signal Passed At Danger, because this is a rail forum so I related SPAD to railways. I'm presently on holiday, enjoying the holiday spirit, so my attention to detail is clearly lacking . I was thinking of Boris over-running a red light in his behaviour. Is that forgiveable for a non rail person on a rail based forum?

 

[Gloster]

SPAD was also the abbreviation of a French aircraft manufacturer of the First World War period. It produced a number of very successful designs, including the S. VII and S. XIII.

 

[jon0844]

I could actually picture Boris jumping a red light to get away from any tough questioning, then hiding in a fridge.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I could actually picture Boris jumping a red light to get away from any tough questioning, then hiding in a fridge.

Is that why he is known as a "cool customer"...

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It was only supposed to be a piece of light-hearted satire to be honest, rather than a rant. As I've said before there should always be room for satire and poking fun at politicians, particularly those you're not a fan of. Spitting Image specialised in it, often in a much more brutal way than anything here.

OK, fair enough - apologies for misunderstanding.

 

[nw1]

OK, fair enough - apologies for misunderstanding.

No worries!

 

[birchesgreen]

More sexual misconduct allegations about a Tory MP, blimey this is bad if true.

Top Tory MP faces drink spiking claims as victim 'had nipples licked'

It is claimed the man used the substance on a fellow Conservative MP, who awoke to find his nipples being licked. It is also said a Labour MP was abused after the man administered the drug to him

www.mirror.co.uk

A senior Tory MP is caught up in allegations swirling around Westminster that he plied four victims with date-rape drugs.

It is claimed the man used the substance on a fellow Conservative MP, who awoke to find his nipples being licked.

It is also said a Labour MP was abused after the man administered the drug to him – while the flatmate of another Tory MP claimed to friends he had a similar experience.

A fourth man also claimed he had rebuffed his advances, and had suspicions his drink was spiked.

A source said: “The name of this alleged attacker is being spoken about openly among Conservative MPs.

 

[Typhoon]

More sexual misconduct allegations about a Tory MP, blimey this is bad if true.

Big IF.

Later on in the piece it states

Pals of the Labour MP say the incident was blown out of proportion and no complaint was made.

However, sooner of later, the name will come out in the media and his career will be trashed whether guilty or innocent.

When someone I trust prints it, I might believe it but that someone won't begin with 'Daily'.