Keir Starmer and the Labour Party

[AlterEgo]

People have to try to understand the messaging first. We can’t just ignorantly assume what a gesture means.

Disagree. Gestures don’t have a fixed, single meaning and context is vital. Try turning your back on the Cenotaph during the minute’s silence on Remembrance Day and then try to explain you “didn’t want to look at the cenotaph out of respect and sadness” or burn a Union Flag “to represent the sadness of burning of buildings in the Blitz and the grim betrayal of English Tommies by their terrible generals” and see where that gets you.

Gestures have a shared interpretation and don’t live or originate in a vacuum.

 

[tbtc]

I'm not sure why you keep bringing up Marxism, given that, as far as I can see, no-one on this thread who is arguing against taking the knee has brought it up as an argument

...because it's the standard excuse for people who don't want to accept the repeated explanation from the players/ manager and are looking for a way of misrepresenting an anti-racist gesture - time and time again it's shorthand for why people are opposed to taking a knee - in the press, on social media, even from people who have no idea what "Marxism" is but like to demonise anyone to the left of them

I think we are in danger of forgetting that public gestures take place in a shared realm of understanding. Nobody gets to police how other people interpret their gestures, and that includes the England team.

Where do you draw the line with this though?

Any "gesture" can be deliberately misinterpreted by someone

The players/ manager have repeatedly explained their reasoning - if people want to keep misinterpreting then that says lot more about them than it does about the England team

Where did it all go wrong for labour ?

COVID.

I'd suggest that Labour's policy on Covid has been a lot more in tune with public opinion than the Conservative policies - I think that most people have verged on the side of caution and tried to deal with the complexities of protecting people whilst keeping jobs viable etc - it's not easy to find a simple policy on (as the goalposts keep moving - e.g. we didn't expect to get vaccines as soon as we did, so some of the things said last summer look wrong in hindsight)

But, whilst they've managed to stay in touch with mainstream public opinion (e.g. sharing the caution that a lot of people have about this "big bang" of Freedom Day), there's obviously been a pretty noisy 10%-or-so of people who've consistently been against every lockdown/ restriction/ safety measure. But there's no market there for a political party - look at how the likes of Laurence Fox have flopped at the polls - a lot of the noisy "10%" seem stuck down a rabbit hole where they only interact with people like them and don't realise just how much of a minority they are - Corbynites made the same mistake (convinced that "Corbyn must be incredibly popular because all of their friends loved him", whereas the reality was more like "all of Corbyn's fans are my friends")

The problem is that it's difficult for the opposition to make much headway over Covid, given that any massive criticism will be seen as "unpatriotic" and "distracting the Government when they are trying their best" (maybe even "undermining our hard working NHS heroes") - just like any party criticising the government during a war is on a hiding to nothing - so Starmer has had to be a bit muted in his criticism of the repeated lockdowns/ opening ups - but it's a very tricky balance to strike IMHO

 

[AlterEgo]

Where do you draw the line with this though?

Any "gesture" can be deliberately misinterpreted by someone

"deliberately"?

Sure, but you could apply the same logic to the fans who boo. That's a public gesture which people have refused to accept multiple explanations for from the people who are doing it. Saying "uhhhh racist" is not really going to cut the mustard when Millwall fans booed their team kneeling in December yet enthusiastically cheered at the next game when a Kick It Out banner was unveiled by the team. Kick It Out has been going 25-30 years now and has done nearly all of the legwork in removing racism from professional football and the terraces to the extent that it's a mere glimmer of the issue it was.

The players/ manager have repeatedly explained their reasoning - if people want to keep misinterpreting then that says lot more about them than it does about the England team

The problem is, both booing and kneeling are gestures which have a pre-existing cultural references. We are entitled to judge the booing as much as we are entitled to judge the kneeling, regardless of explanation given. The England team do not get to dictate universal appraisal of their gesture and Mr Eddie Nobody of Grays in Essex doesn't get to dictate how other people accept his justification of booing either. Booing was unwise and stupid because this is associated by many people to be something you only do to a villain or an enemy - that's our shared cultural understanding of booing. Yet a lot of people who booed gave multiple explanations as to why, but others haven't accepted that explanation (including me) and still say it's the wrong thing to do.

Kneeling was unwise because many people associate it with its origins in the USA which has highly charged race politics you'd pay a king's ransom to avoid importing to here. It was reactivated following the murder of a civilian by a police officer in a foreign country which has nothing to do with Britain. I can well understand why some people are suspicious of it. We have a race relations issue in Britain but the solution must come from within as the issue is not the same as it is in the USA.

The football racism stuff is the latest moral panic - it's almost always stupid, ghastly people, often kids, posting the most hurtful thing they can think of to footballers - monkey faces and racist epithets. I'm not convinced there's what I'd call hardcore and committed racism there - the idea that Rashford is inferior simply because of the colour of his skin. I'm much more inclined to think it's the ugliest manifestation of troll culture which runs like a virus through football social media.

That doesn't make it okay, and the players are still right to protest against that treatment, but the way the media has lost its head over this is madness.

 

[NorthKent1989]

...because it's the standard excuse for people who don't want to accept the repeated explanation from the players/ manager and are looking for a way of misrepresenting an anti-racist gesture - time and time again it's shorthand for why people are opposed to taking a knee - in the press, on social media, even from people who have no idea what "Marxism" is but like to demonise anyone to the left of them



Where do you draw the line with this though?

Any "gesture" can be deliberately misinterpreted by someone

The players/ manager have repeatedly explained their reasoning - if people want to keep misinterpreting then that says lot more about them than it does about the England team



I'd suggest that Labour's policy on Covid has been a lot more in tune with public opinion than the Conservative policies - I think that most people have verged on the side of caution and tried to deal with the complexities of protecting people whilst keeping jobs viable etc - it's not easy to find a simple policy on (as the goalposts keep moving - e.g. we didn't expect to get vaccines as soon as we did, so some of the things said last summer look wrong in hindsight)

But, whilst they've managed to stay in touch with mainstream public opinion (e.g. sharing the caution that a lot of people have about this "big bang" of Freedom Day), there's obviously been a pretty noisy 10%-or-so of people who've consistently been against every lockdown/ restriction/ safety measure. But there's no market there for a political party - look at how the likes of Laurence Fox have flopped at the polls - a lot of the noisy "10%" seem stuck down a rabbit hole where they only interact with people like them and don't realise just how much of a minority they are - Corbynites made the same mistake (convinced that "Corbyn must be incredibly popular because all of their friends loved him", whereas the reality was more like "all of Corbyn's fans are my friends")

The problem is that it's difficult for the opposition to make much headway over Covid, given that any massive criticism will be seen as "unpatriotic" and "distracting the Government when they are trying their best" (maybe even "undermining our hard working NHS heroes") - just like any party criticising the government during a war is on a hiding to nothing - so Starmer has had to be a bit muted in his criticism of the repeated lockdowns/ opening ups - but it's a very tricky balance to strike IMHO

There’s being cautious over a virus with a 99% survival rate and there’s doing reckless harm to mental health, small businesses, the economy etc.

Its only mainstream public opinion because the mainstream media has been pro restrictions from the beginning, lockdown one was needed, but the media has been ramping up the fear porn since January, even then I now believe it is at 50/50 or 60/40 at any given time, let’s not forget how the media has ignored and not reported on those who have been marching in London for months against restrictions with a growing number.

As for Labour’s position, they’ve not once mentioned the effects lockdown has on poorer people, they bang on about “protecting the NHS” well the economy needs to be good and strong for it to be protected does it not?

 

[XAM2175]

As for Labour’s position, they’ve not once mentioned the effects lockdown has on poorer people, they bang on about “protecting the NHS” well the economy needs to be good and strong for it to be protected does it not?

They've been fairly consistent on pushing for additional financial support, moratoriums on evictions, etc etc, if I remember correctly - or are you only acknowledging "[mentioning] the effects lockdown has on poorer people" if it comes in the form of outright opposition to quarantine strategies?

 

[NorthKent1989]

They've been fairly consistent on pushing for additional financial support, moratoriums on evictions, etc etc, if I remember correctly - or are you only acknowledging "[mentioning] the effects lockdown has on poorer people" if it comes in the form of outright opposition to quarantine strategies?

Theyll say platitudes then vote with the Tories, it’s been widely acknowledged that Labour have been as useless opposition, they want lockdown and restrictions to continue without any idea of when it’ll end, over half the population have been vaccinated now when do we start getting back to normal? 2025? They and the Tories don’t seem to understand that Covid is here to stay and we should get on with it, cases will rise as do flu cases every year

 

[DynamicSpirit]

...because it's the standard excuse for people who don't want to accept the repeated explanation from the players/ manager and are looking for a way of misrepresenting an anti-racist gesture - time and time again it's shorthand for why people are opposed to taking a knee - in the press, on social media, even from people who have no idea what "Marxism" is but like to demonise anyone to the left of them

OK. So - I can understand that to the extent that some commentators critical of BLM have referred to (alleged) Marxism as part of their criticism. Personally I'm a little sceptical of that: I think there are many, many, reasons to disagree with and indeed to be extremely concerned about the BLM movement, but Marxism doesn't seem to me to a great extent to be one of those reasons.

But why do you assume it's a *deliberate* misrepresentation? Has it not occurred to you that maybe the people alleging Marxism are saying it because that's what they believe? And therefore that explaining why (you think) they are mistaken would be more constructive than just throwing out accusations of bad faith?

And that brings us nicely back to the Labour Party: What's gone wrong with Labour? I'm generalizing a bit here, but I'd argue that one of the biggest problems is that Labour (and the left generally) has stopped engaging with people who disagree with them. To a good approximation, if you look at stuff that Tories and Tory politicians write, they will argue for why they believe Labour's solutions are wrong. Labour and people on the left don't do that so much - they just presume people who disagree with them must be somehow dishonest or have malign intentions. There are several examples of that in this very thread - some people in this thread have even implied that I'm arguing in bad faith (I can promise you I'm not - I'm expressing my genuine concerns/beliefs). There seems now to be a whole culture on the left of failing to understand that other people actually see the world differently. Thus you see the continual baseless accusations that the Tories are deliberately trying to destroy the NHS/divide the country with culture wars/make poor people hungry/etc. etc. - when the reality is that the Tories are - on the whole - simply doing what they believe is best for the country. (I say 'on the whole' - obviously there will always be some less ethical individuals in all parties who are simply pushing their own careers).

I'd argue that culture of not engaging with others/assuming bad faith is why 10-15 years ago, so many people on the left thought it was OK to insinuate that anyone who wanted lower immigration was a racist - thereby alienating a lot of Labour supporters who weren't racist but wanted lower immigration.

And then 5 years ago many people on the left managed to do the same again by insinuating that people who supported Brexit must be racist - with the result that lots of ex-Labour supporters who aren't racist but wanted Brexit now vote Tory.

And today the message has changed: Now the insinuation (never directly said, but continually implied) is that, if you don't 100% support BLM/taking the knee/etc., then you must be a racist (or have some other bad motives). Guess which party that message is going to make people who aren't racist but don't support BLM vote for...

Labour/the left hasn't yet learned - and there are too many posts in this very thread that demonstrate that - and that's one reason why I reckon we're in for at least another 10 years of Tory Government.

 

[edwin_m]

There seems now to be a whole culture on the left of failing to understand that other people actually see the world differently. Thus you see the continual baseless accusations that the Tories are deliberately trying to destroy the NHS/divide the country with culture wars/make poor people hungry/etc. etc. - when the reality is that the Tories are - on the whole - simply doing what they believe is best for the country. (I say 'on the whole' - obviously there will always be some less ethical individuals in all parties who are simply pushing their own careers).

The way the Leave side in the Brexit campaign dismissed the ways Remain was trying to explain why it would be a bad idea, not engaging with the rational argument but appealing to emotion, shows that this sort of behaviour can come from the Right too.

 

[AlterEgo]

The way the Leave side in the Brexit campaign dismissed the ways Remain was trying to explain why it would be a bad idea, not engaging with the rational argument but appealing to emotion, shows that this sort of behaviour can come from the Right too.

People deciding things based on emotion is perfectly fine in a democracy. The Brexit referendum was not some sort of accountant's game or a science.

 

[edwin_m]

People deciding things based on emotion is perfectly fine in a democracy. The Brexit referendum was not some sort of accountant's game or a science.

So how's that different from the stances you are accusing the left of?

 

[AlterEgo]

So how's that different from the stances you are accusing the left of?

Which stances have I "accused the left of"?

 

[WelshBluebird]

People deciding things based on emotion is perfectly fine in a democracy.

You'd be right as long as the person doing that is honest about it.
If Brexiters at the time had said "yes, we know there will be these downsides, or at least the risk of them, but we feel this is still the right thing" then I'd have much less of a problem with it! What they did instead was based things on emotion whilst pretending it was based on fact.

 

[AlterEgo]

You'd be right as long as the person doing that is honest about it.
If Brexiters at the time had said "yes, we know there will be these downsides, or at least the risk of them, but we feel this is still the right thing" then I'd have much less of a problem with it! What they did instead was based things on emotion whilst pretending it was based on fact.

I assume by Brexiters you mean the people in charge of the campaign?

 

[edwin_m]

Which stances have I "accused the left of"?

Apologies, mixing yours up with someone else's post.

 

[superjohn]

All I ever seem to hear from Labour is attacking of whatever the government has said.
“Too little, too late
Papering over the cracks
Too little, too late
Papering over the cracks…”
and so on ad infinitum

As long as this is all they have to say they have no chance. People either tune out the constant naysaying or find it pathetic.

They need to go back and look at what Blair did to get elected. But for the Iraq war, I believe he was one of our better Prime Ministers. Boris Johnson’s growing arrogance means he is asking to be taken down by a proper opposition.

 

[Purple Orange]

Latest poll has Tories on 39% and Labour on 35%.

 

[Typhoon]

Latest poll has Tories on 39% and Labour on 35%.

Is that the Survation Poll? (Figures are as above.) Conservative down 4%. Labour up 3%, Lib Dem up 2%. Poll take 19-20 July.

Only other poll taken this week appears to be Redfield and Wilton. Conservative 42%, Labour 33%.

I haven't quoted last weeks simply because I suspect that any impact of 'Freedom Day' and the restrictions on attending large events will not have been known.

Polls taken next week may be more interesting.

 

[Purple Orange]

Is that the Survation Poll? (Figures are as above.) Conservative down 4%. Labour up 3%, Lib Dem up 2%. Poll take 19-20 July.

Only other poll taken this week appears to be Redfield and Wilton. Conservative 42%, Labour 33%.

I haven't quoted last weeks simply because I suspect that any impact of 'Freedom Day' and the restrictions on attending large events will not have been known.

Polls taken next week may be more interesting.

Yeah the Survation poll. They had the Tories with an 11 point lead last week.

 

[Typhoon]

Yeah the Survation poll. They had the Tories with an 11 point lead last week.

Latest YouGov poll - Conservative 38% (down 6% on the week), Labour 34% (up 3%), LibDem 9% (up 1%). Interestingly ReformUK got 3% (GBNews' new viewers?).

It is getting closer, certainly no Freedom Day bounce (and it is governments that lose elections).

 

[Purple Orange]

Latest YouGov poll - Conservative 38% (down 6% on the week), Labour 34% (up 3%), LibDem 9% (up 1%). Interestingly ReformUK got 3% (GBNews' new viewers?).

It is getting closer, certainly no Freedom Day bounce (and it is governments that lose elections).

If Starmer can get some support good my outside the party, we may see some steam building up going in to 2022. There is a tightrope that Labour needs to walk in the run up to 2024 and it’ll need some time for public confidence in Labour to build, but at the same time not to peak too early.

 

[Typhoon]

If Starmer can get some support good my outside the party, we may see some steam building up going in to 2022. There is a tightrope that Labour needs to walk in the run up to 2024 and it’ll need some time for public confidence in Labour to build, but at the same time not to peak too early.

Socialist Worker is up in arms that Starmer wants to expel members who support certain extreme left wing groups. Whether that is or isn't justifiable, it will tend to indicate that the party has changed direction from the Corbyn era.

I am wondering whether it would be worth them working with the LibDems and even the Greens and SNP if they were willing to on a residential care programme. Maybe have talks with not-for-profit agencies and charities. The PM seems to be under the cosh because of lack of action on residential care. It may show leadership rather than lethargy.

 

[Purple Orange]

Socialist Worker is up in arms that Starmer wants to expel members who support certain extreme left wing groups. Whether that is or isn't justifiable, it will tend to indicate that the party has changed direction from the Corbyn era.

I am wondering whether it would be worth them working with the LibDems and even the Greens and SNP if they were willing to on a residential care programme. Maybe have talks with not-for-profit agencies and charities. The PM seems to be under the cosh because of lack of action on residential care. It may show leadership rather than lethargy.

Yes, Labour absolutely must work with Lib Dems, SNP & Greens on these issues. In fact I believe that there is some cooperation taking place on the subject of vaccination ID cards (if I understood correctly on LBC this afternoon).

 

[Fyldeboy]

There’s being cautious over a virus with a 99% survival rate

I do not doubt that the pandemic has caused untold damage to this country, not least to it's mental health. However, 'carry on as normal', ie not affect health care, education, night-clubs, pubs, transport etc, would have slashed your 99% survival rate.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I do not doubt that the pandemic has caused untold damage to this country, not least to it's mental health. However, 'carry on as normal', ie not affect health care, education, night-clubs, pubs, transport etc, would have slashed your 99% survival rate.

Back in March 2020 when we had no idea what Covid was I would agree with you, but we a year and a half on now, over 50 million vaccinated, and Covid is now something we have to live with, if we don’t go back to now, when? Thats that one question those who believe in restrictions can never answer, the country needs to be back to normal ASAP if we’re to have a healthcare service at all

 

[brad465]

Aspana Begum has been cleared of the housing fraud claims, so no worries about a by-election there anytime soon. I imagine no by-election is likely now until at least the conference season (or after if there's a unwritten rule against having them in that time), by which point Labour will be selling the policy ideas they've been proposing on the back pages of newspapers recently.

 

[johnnychips]

Blimey, there has been a lot of diversion from the original point of this thread, though it has been very interesting.

Until Keir Starmer stands up for the young, the poor, the vulnerable, the exploited who have really been affected by this pandemic, I would never dream of voting for him again. All we have is ‘you should have done this two weeks earlier’.

 

[Gloster]

The Grauniad is reporting that Starmer was one of a number of MPs from both sides who accepted tickets to Euro 2020: in his case they were worth £1,628 and were provided by the Premier League. Even if they didn’t come from the gambling and betting industry, something that parliament will be looking at in the near future and also the main provider of tickets to events declared in July, this strikes me as a massive misjudgement.

 

[daodao]

It is still going wrong for the Labour party. They have just expelled the distinguished veteran film producer Ken Loach, for association with "the wrong sort of people".

Director Ken Loach says he has been expelled from Labour | Labour | The Guardian

Director Ken Loach says he has been expelled from Labour​

Leftwing film-maker claims move by party is because he would ‘not disown those already expelled’

Mattha Busby
Sat 14 Aug 2021 12.46 BST

The veteran leftwing film-maker Ken Loach has said he has been expelled from the Labour party. Loach, whose films are regarded as landmarks of social realism, claimed the move by the party was because he would “not disown those already expelled”, and he hit out at an alleged “witch-hunt”.

It follows reports last month that the Labour leader, Keir Starmer, was preparing to support a purge of factions vocally supportive of his predecessor Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership. Supporters of the former leader have claimed Starmer has rolled back moves to democratise the party and that he has fought some of his own members with more gusto than the Tories.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ted-to-back-purge-of-far-left-labour-factions
On Twitter, 85-year-old Loach, a winner of the Palme d’Or for I, Daniel Blake, said: “Labour HQ finally decided I’m not fit to be a member of their party, as I will not disown those already expelled. Well … I am proud to stand with the good friends and comrades victimised by the purge. There is indeed a witch-hunt … Starmer and his clique will never lead a party of the people. We are many, they are few. Solidarity.”

Loach previously left the Labour party in the 1990s, reportedly in disgust at Tony Blair, after three decades as a member. He has also been active in political parties such as Respect and Left Unity that have presented themselves as a radical alternative to Labour. He rejoined the party following Corbyn’s election to the leadership. The former shadow chancellor John McDonnell tweeted: “To expel such a fine socialist who has done so much to further the cause of socialism is a disgrace. Ken’s films have exposed the inequalities in our society, have given us hope for change & inspired us to fight back. I send my solidarity to my friend and comrade.”

Corbyn was suspended from the party in October last year for saying the problem of antisemitism within Labour was “dramatically overstated for political reasons” by opponents and the media. A disciplinary panel of the NEC lifted the suspension the following month after he issued a conciliatory statement but Starmer refused to restore the whip to Corbyn.

Howard Beckett, a member of the NEC, was suspended from the party in May after he called for the home secretary, Priti Patel, to be deported on Twitter.
A Labour spokesperson said: “We are not going to comment on individual cases. As previously reported, the NEC took the decision to proscribe a number of organisations at its last meeting.”

 

[birchesgreen]

"Wrong"? Well thats an interesting point of view.

 

[Busaholic]

It is still going wrong for the Labour party. They have just expelled the distinguished veteran film producer Ken Loach, for association with "the wrong sort of people".

Director Ken Loach says he has been expelled from Labour | Labour | The Guardian

If Loach is telling the whole story, it rather reeks of McCarthyism and will probably prove counter-productive to Labour in trying to secure more support. They need to be thinking how to attract an anti-Tory like me to vote for them in a General Election for the first time in thirty years, and this action makes it less likely.