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Keir Starmer and the Labour Party

yorksrob

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It seems to me that all the while the progressive parties are getting sucked into identity politics, the Tories will win.

Coupled with this, the Tories seem to be quietly ditching some of the Thatcherite dogma and showing signs of being prepared to intervene in the economy (something New Labour were squeamish about) and you have the perfect storm.
 
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deltic

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It seems to me that all the while the progressive parties are getting sucked into identity politics, the Tories will win.

Coupled with this, the Tories seem to be quietly ditching some of the Thatcherite dogma and showing signs of being prepared to intervene in the economy (something New Labour were squeamish about) and you have the perfect storm.
Agree entirely.

The Tories have no idealogy only the pursuit of power, Labour seemingly have little interest in power only idealogy. Blair adopted the Tory approach and was rewarded with 3 election wins and the everlasting despisement of large segments of his own party. The same party that has now lost 4 general elections in a row and even when faced by a government that has been in disarray for nearly 5 years hasnt managed to lay a finger on them and is heading for a 5th defeat. Labour needs to demonstrate they want to win and seen to be listening to what the electorate want.
 

yorksrob

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Agree entirely.

The Tories have no idealogy only the pursuit of power, Labour seemingly have little interest in power only idealogy. Blair adopted the Tory approach and was rewarded with 3 election wins and the everlasting despisement of large segments of his own party. The same party that has now lost 4 general elections in a row and even when faced by a government that has been in disarray for nearly 5 years hasnt managed to lay a finger on them and is heading for a 5th defeat. Labour needs to demonstrate they want to win and seen to be listening to what the electorate want.

Indeed. In many ways, Blair was undoubtedly the right man at the right time. I think that many voters have moved on in what they want the country to be now.
 

WelshBluebird

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It seems to me that all the while the progressive parties are getting sucked into identity politics, the Tories will win.
This is where I am very conflicted.
I actually agree with your point - that most people don't give a damn about that side of things and that it probably turns a lot of people off.

At the same time I simply cannot turn my back on my partner and some of my friends who identify in some way with the trans community. It is easy to label it as pointless identity politics when it doesn't affect you (and one thing you'll notice is a lot of the discussions about this somehow manage to actually leave out trans people from the conversation - a point well made on BBC Radio 4 the other day by the person who runs PinkNews), but when these people are trying to say that my partner and some of my friends shouldn't be able to use the toilets in a public place, or are somehow automatically rapists because they are trans, or even that they shouldn't even exist at all, then I take that pretty personally - and obviously it is a lot worse for my partner and friends who are the ones directly affected by it. And even for those who aren't part of the trans community, I certainly have female friends who just happen to look a bit masculine get abused because they dared to use the toilets they are supposed to use - and that abuse has been directly fueled by the spread of transphobia within the country.

So what should I do? Ignore the problem and essentially further isolate my partner and friends who are already pretty isolated and vulnerable? Or support them, knowing that doing so isn't a popular opinion politically? And that is exactly the same no win situation that Labour in general are in with this.
 

deltic

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This is where I am very conflicted.
I actually agree with your point - that most people don't give a damn about that side of things and that it probably turns a lot of people off.

At the same time I simply cannot turn my back on my partner and some of my friends who identify in some way with the trans community. It is easy to label it as pointless identity politics when it doesn't affect you (and one thing you'll notice is a lot of the discussions about this somehow manage to actually leave out trans people from the conversation - a point well made on BBC Radio 4 the other day by the person who runs PinkNews), but when these people are trying to say that my partner and some of my friends shouldn't be able to use the toilets in a public place, or are somehow automatically rapists because they are trans, or even that they shouldn't even exist at all, then I take that pretty personally - and obviously it is a lot worse for my partner and friends who are the ones directly affected by it. And even for those who aren't part of the trans community, I certainly have female friends who just happen to look a bit masculine get abused because they dared to use the toilets they are supposed to use - and that abuse has been directly fueled by the spread of transphobia within the country.

So what should I do? Ignore the problem and essentially further isolate my partner and friends who are already pretty isolated and vulnerable? Or support them, knowing that doing so isn't a popular opinion politically? And that is exactly the same no win situation that Labour in general are in with this.
There is probably a no-win situation on the trans topic until we get sexless facilties and hence it is one of those issues that the Labour party should not get drawn into. Like many social reform issues it is often better to leave it to individual MPs and campaigners rather than develop party policy on it until public opinion gets used to the idea.
 

Typhoon

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Make that three Jess Phillips fans. Joan Ruddock was another who made a great contribution.
Thank you for pointing this out, I'd only associated her with CND but she was also responsible for two private members bills (on recycling and flytipping). Shows what can be done.

Interesting the number of women that have been pointed out. Perhaps it was that they had already needed to fight to get a nomination for a winnable seat meant that they are equipped to battle for a cause once they reach the green benches. Will it change now women are in the majority on the Opposition benches, I wonder?

Unfortunately, the government benches suffered rather when several left to join ChangeUK.

There’s a paragraph at the end of one of the chapters in the book I’m reading by Matt Forde that I thought summed this up quite well
....
What a great metaphor for the Labour Party...
Its not on the Momentum reading list so that's one part of the party that won't learn, I suspect another part know too well (some of whom walked in 2019. It is those in the middle ground who need to stand up and be counted. Too many are keeping mum.

Coupled with this, the Tories seem to be quietly ditching some of the Thatcherite dogma and showing signs of being prepared to intervene in the economy (something New Labour were squeamish about) and you have the perfect storm.
I fear it is not all by some way; what might be identified as the ERG wing will bide their time, Johnson (or Mrs Johnson) will get bored once he is told that he can't do something, he'll have a hissy-fit and quit having got 'Brexit done' and vaccinated us for every variant right through to Omega. The new leader will call a snap election and be elected with a landslide. There are enough prominent right wingers in the cabinet to mean there is every chance that they will be occupying positions of influence, including the top job. Also, Thatcher is a convenient scapegoat used by the left - both Major (rail and coal privatisation, NHS internal market) and Cameron (Royal Mail, reductions in benefits, tuition fees) were not exactly liberal and went beyond the Thatcher agenda.
 

Scotrail12

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PMQ's on just now and I feel that Starmer is a huge problem for them. I don't think a politician needs to be an entertainer by any means but they have to have something about them that draws people in. His performances at PMQ's are so wooden, he does not feel like PM material and he just comes across as a middle aged man with a chip on his shoulder rather than someone with proper conviction for a cause.

As for the original question - Corbyn is where things went badly wrong in my book as the party shifted focus with him as leader from the red wall (and formerly Scotland), working class voters (people like my grandparents) to the identity politics lot (the Owen Jones types of the world). Pretty big change and not one that serves a majority of people.
 

yorksrob

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This is where I am very conflicted.
I actually agree with your point - that most people don't give a damn about that side of things and that it probably turns a lot of people off.

At the same time I simply cannot turn my back on my partner and some of my friends who identify in some way with the trans community. It is easy to label it as pointless identity politics when it doesn't affect you (and one thing you'll notice is a lot of the discussions about this somehow manage to actually leave out trans people from the conversation - a point well made on BBC Radio 4 the other day by the person who runs PinkNews), but when these people are trying to say that my partner and some of my friends shouldn't be able to use the toilets in a public place, or are somehow automatically rapists because they are trans, or even that they shouldn't even exist at all, then I take that pretty personally - and obviously it is a lot worse for my partner and friends who are the ones directly affected by it. And even for those who aren't part of the trans community, I certainly have female friends who just happen to look a bit masculine get abused because they dared to use the toilets they are supposed to use - and that abuse has been directly fueled by the spread of transphobia within the country.

So what should I do? Ignore the problem and essentially further isolate my partner and friends who are already pretty isolated and vulnerable? Or support them, knowing that doing so isn't a popular opinion politically? And that is exactly the same no win situation that Labour in general are in with this.

Indeed. I don't know what the answer is. Maybe framing things in terms of practical solutions for people (more unisex toilet facilities being an example).

But at the moment, the Tories have a fairly straightforward message of national unity that appeals to a lot of people who would traditionally have voted labour.
 

Typhoon

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There’s a paragraph at the end of one of the chapters in the book I’m reading by Matt Forde that I thought summed this up quite well:

Ultimately, it’s about having the right mindset. Explore and enjoy the ideology but not at the expense of it being relevant.
Sometimes I worry that those who bury themselves in complex political philosophy, as important as knowledge is, are doing it as an alternative to engaging with reality. They’re becoming ideological hermits, pursuing politics in a way that doesn’t enrich debate or society. In short, know your values but don’t strive for purity or you’ll end up down a dead end. Once you’re down a dead end there’s only one way to go and that’s reverse.
Actually there’s another option, you can keep going for a bit, but you will crash the car.
What a great metaphor for the Labour Party...


None of that’s mine but I do agree with it.
Reality does seem to have kicked in for at least one politician:
LBC host Nick Ferrari asked Labour's Andy Burham for his take on the students' controversial decision.

The Mayor of Greater Manchester replied: "I can't really relate to that if I'm honest.
"I think these kinds of gestures are getting out of hand if I am honest Nick.
"I don't support that.
"We always should respect the Queen especially now given the things that have happened in the last few months."

Mr Burham told the LBC host the decision to remove the painting was "divisive".

He said: "So no I don't support that, lets get a sense of proportion and a bit of respect back.
"People can aires {sic} their views but those kinds of gestures are divisive actually.
"They just divide people and I don't think they achieve much, to be honest."

It may not go down too well in the Junior Common Room, but I reckon a good few in Greater Manchester will agree wholeheartedly, especially this year.

From https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...-getting-out-of-hand/ar-AAKR1y0?ocid=msedgntp
 

ainsworth74

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Corbyn.

No further discussion required.

I feel like some further discussion may be required! :lol:

He was certainly the proximate cause of all the issues but I'm not sure things were rosy before he came to power in the Labour Party!
 

Typhoon

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I feel like some further discussion may be required! :lol:

He was certainly the proximate cause of all the issues but I'm not sure things were rosy before he came to power in the Labour Party!
Like Ed Milliband, elected in 2010, thanks largely to the support of Len McCluskey. He was not up to it at that time as the performance in the election showed.

Or Gordon Brown calling a voter a 'bigoted woman'.

The press will find every weakness and magnify them.
 

brad465

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Reality does seem to have kicked in for at least one politician:


It may not go down too well in the Junior Common Room, but I reckon a good few in Greater Manchester will agree wholeheartedly, especially this year.

From https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...-getting-out-of-hand/ar-AAKR1y0?ocid=msedgntp
For all Burnham's support and acknowledgement of Labour issues at the moment, he's obviously not in a position to lead the party, and probably won't be until the next election if he decides to stand and resign as mayor to do so. Starmer could do well though listening to him in the meantime.
 

Typhoon

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For all Burnham's support and acknowledgement of Labour issues at the moment, he's obviously not in a position to lead the party, and probably won't be until the next election if he decides to stand and resign as mayor to do so. Starmer could do well though listening to him in the meantime.
Absolutely. But also use him constructively to make a presence in parts of the north, get away from the London-centric party. Get him, and other MPs from Greater Manchester to be seen round the streets, talking to people, reconnecting with them, but use locals, not those parachuted in. There are enough with status in the north-west. Labour needs to get back to the people. They are fed up with being told what to think.

Whether Burnham is a future party leader or would be happy with the empire he now has, I have no idea but he can perform a useful service in getting locals on board with the Labour message (and he can help develop that from the M1 postcode).
 

Wuffle

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It seems to me that all the while the progressive parties are getting sucked into identity politics, the Tories will win.

Coupled with this, the Tories seem to be quietly ditching some of the Thatcherite dogma and showing signs of being prepared to intervene in the economy (something New Labour were squeamish about) and you have the perfect storm.
Although the CON-servatives are quietly involving themselves in identity politics
The Labour problems also involve the ignoring the result of the EU referendum; Corbyn was a Leaver but sadly he was persuaded to drop his principles on that and the person who benefited was the man who pressurised him - Starmer

I wonder how many members of the Labour Party remember the views of Peter Shore and Tony Benn on the EU ? Hardly describe them as Blairites can we
 

DarloRich

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I feel like some further discussion may be required! :lol:

He was certainly the proximate cause of all the issues but I'm not sure things were rosy before he came to power in the Labour Party!
I disagree. Whilst things were not rosy in the labour garden pre Corbyn they were not terminal. They may be now. The appointment of a man uttlerly toxic to the electorate, a history of crackpotism and a man who was such an easy target for the press (perhaps the easiest target ever) are the reasons that things are so bad in this country now. He facilitated several Tory governments and gave us Johnson. FFS he gave Johnson an 80 seat majority! Even Foot didn't manage that kind of own goal!

Perhaps worse than that is the infestation of Labour party by the Corbyn cult. That will ensure the Corbyn infection continues in the body of the Labour Party for some time and that the electorate steer a wide path. Things are very bad and Corbyn and his cult are the reason.

Kenny, fetch my Zantac.......................
 
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PHILIPE

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I disagree. Whilst things were not rosy in the labour garden pre Corbyn they were not terminal. They may be now. The appointment of a man uttlerly toxic to the electorate, a history of crackpotism and a man who was such an easy target for the press (perhaps the easiest target ever) are the reasons that things are so bad in this country now. He facilitated several Tory governments and gave us Johnson. FFS he gave Johnson an 80 seat majority! Even Foot didn't manage that kind of own goal!

Perhaps worse than that is the infestation of Labour party by the Corbyn cult. That will ensure the Corbyn infection continues in the body of the Labour Party for some time and that the electorate steer a wide path. Things are very bad and Corbyn and his cult are the reason.

Kenny, fetch my Zantac.......................

And the Corbynites won't accept that they and their ideology were responsible for the Election result and still want to continue with their brand of politics in order to become a power again.
 

Busaholic

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I feel like some further discussion may be required! :lol:

He was certainly the proximate cause of all the issues but I'm not sure things were rosy before he came to power in the Labour Party!
Absolutely - Corbyn was a symptom, not the cause. He was, is, and shall remain utterly inconsequential, a puppet on which others could hang their views. Given his closeness to his brother Piers, I can only conclude there is a genetic disposition to a form of madness in that family.
 

tbtc

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Twitter has been more car-crash-like than usual today, as the Corbynites celebrate finishing second behind Theresa May in 2017 - all of the straw grasping ("we were only several thousand votes away from being able to form a really really stable coalition with the LibDems/ SNP/ Sinn Fein/ Plaid Cymru that would definitely have worked")

There's an interesting question about Corbyn's legacy if he'd accepted the scale of the defeat in 2017 and stepped down - the Owen Jones types would now be able to claim that there was some subsequent betrayal and that Labour should have followed Corbyn with more Corbynism.

Instead, he ploughed on, alienated a large number of people who'd voted for him through gritted teeth in 2017 and tarnished his own legacy - he'd have been a lot better if he'd walked away (just like the way that David Miliband has such a good reputation with some people because he's been out of UK politics for some time

Make that three Jess Phillips fans

Excellent - I'm glad she has other fans!

An MP who sits down to write bills with their opponents stands a much better chance of getting those bills accepted (since they have cross party support)

Corbyn was an MP who is happy to sit on the back benches virtue signalling with their Early Day Motions instead

the Tories seem to be quietly ditching some of the Thatcherite dogma and showing signs of being prepared to intervene in the economy (something New Labour were squeamish about) and you have the perfect storm.

Thatcher was pragmatic enough to ignore her own dogma when it suited her - she was "slash and burn" in some directions and "preserve and protect" in others - she'd have happily broken her own rules (e.g. changing from economic purity to taking a massive hit by virtually giving away assets like council houses and the utilities that were flogged off to bribe voters)

There is probably a no-win situation on the trans topic until we get sexless facilties and hence it is one of those issues that the Labour party should not get drawn into. Like many social reform issues it is often better to leave it to individual MPs and campaigners rather than develop party policy on it until public opinion gets used to the idea.

Agreed - you'll never find a position that a majority of people will agree on (as things currently stand), the hardliners are pushing for extreme positions (and anything that isn't their desired outcome will be seen as betrayal) - Starmer has chosen a by-election in a constituency with a fairly significant religiously conservative population to announce that he wants to allow self-certification - it won't be enough for one side and will go down really badly with the other side

What worries me is that Stonewall seems to have completely over-reached themselves and the predictable backlash will affect a number of people who deserve much better support than they have been getting

It took a long time to get as far as Civil Partnerships, it took longer to get to Gay Marriage - but these were achievements where the Governments were careful to wait for public opinion to catch up (so that, by the time things happened, they were widely accepted and there was no realistic proposal of repeal) - we're becoming a more tolerant country overall but... baby steps... maybe in another few years we'll have more mainstream agreement that doesn't currently exist... but that's a lesson that today's campaigners seem to be ignoring

It's going to be the next big "culture war" thing, isn't it, when the right wing sit on their hands and watch Labour tear itself apart between the "traditional" wing and the "non traditional" wing

Absolutely - Corbyn was a symptom, not the cause. He was, is, and shall remain utterly inconsequential, a puppet on which others could hang their views

That's the fascinating thing about Corbyn - what a blank sheet of paper he was - allowing other people to project things onto him (rather than an outspoken left wing campaigner like a Prescott/ Galloway etc, who'd have said things that alienated some people on the left)
 

brad465

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It took a long time to get as far as Civil Partnerships, it took longer to get to Gay Marriage - but these were achievements where the Governments were careful to wait for public opinion to catch up (so that, by the time things happened, they were widely accepted and there was no realistic proposal of repeal) - we're becoming a more tolerant country overall but... baby steps... maybe in another few years we'll have more mainstream agreement that doesn't currently exist... but that's a lesson that today's campaigners seem to be ignoring
Interestingly the Tory party membership plummeted after Gay marriage was legalised.

From what I've seen a number of organisations, including my own, have their own policies/strategies for equality, diversity and inclusion (as it's known where I work). Therefore I like to think Labour could step back from the culture matters and just let things progress independent of political thinking/policy ideas.
 

Busaholic

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That's the fascinating thing about Corbyn - what a blank sheet of paper he was - allowing other people to project things onto him (rather than an outspoken left wing campaigner like a Prescott/ Galloway etc, who'd have said things that alienated some people on the left)
I think there have always been a surprisingly large number of MPs whose basic intelligence quotient was not very high, though many made up for it with a degree of cunning and survival skills. This was particularly so when swathes of the country voted red or blue, as applicable, so reliable stooges could be chosen as candidates in certain areas. When Scotland was a Labour fiefdom there were many complete nonentities who managed to get elected e.g. Michael Martin, later possibly the most useless Speaker of the House of Commons ever. Norfolk, Suffolk and Essex did much the same for the Tories (David Amess, anybody?)
 

yorksrob

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Thatcher was pragmatic enough to ignore her own dogma when it suited her - she was "slash and burn" in some directions and "preserve and protect" in others - she'd have happily broken her own rules (e.g. changing from economic purity to taking a massive hit by virtually giving away assets like council houses and the utilities that were flogged off to bribe voters)

I wouldn't put flogging off utilities as being against her own economic orthodoxy. But I agree, she could be more pragmatic in such matters than some of her successors (of both the main parties).
 

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From what I've seen a number of organisations, including my own, have their own policies/strategies for equality, diversity and inclusion (as it's known where I work). Therefore I like to think Labour could step back from the culture matters and just let things progress independent of political thinking/policy ideas.

Agreed - it'd be much better for society to organically reach a consensus on things - a top down approach (dominated by a noisy minority of activists) will run the risk of alienating others and backfiring

Thankfully, when gay marriage was introduced, we'd come far enough as a country that there was no realistic way of repealing it (a lot of the people who'd have been dead against it in the 1980s would have been won over during the intervening period)

I think there have always been a surprisingly large number of MPs whose basic intelligence quotient was not very high, though many made up for it with a degree of cunning and survival skills. This was particularly so when swathes of the country voted red or blue, as applicable, so reliable stooges could be chosen as candidates in certain areas. When Scotland was a Labour fiefdom there were many complete nonentities who managed to get elected e.g. Michael Martin, later possibly the most useless Speaker of the House of Commons ever. Norfolk, Suffolk and Essex did much the same for the Tories (David Amess, anybody?)

Good point - social media is shining a light on some of these backbenchers who'd have gone under the radar a generation ago but now their tweets showing how many flags/ pictures of the queen/ books on questionable historical characters they have on the background when interviewed on Zoom or tweet something to their supporters (forgetting that everyone else can see this too)...

Someone like Marc Francois might have been easy to ignore once upon a time, but not now

I wouldn't put flogging off utilities as being against her own economic orthodoxy. But I agree, she could be more pragmatic in such matters than some of her successors (of both the main parties).

Sorry, I'm meaning that Thatcher gave the impression that she needed to be incredibly tight with the public purse (alluding to a woman's handbag or housekeeping money, "you can't spend more than you earn" etc) but at the same time was happy with the treasury taking a massive loss when utilities/ council houses etc were sold off at incredibly low prices, if it made for good politics

I don't think that the Johnson/ Sunak conversion to large state spending in certain areas (e.g. Tees Valley) is anything that Thatcher wouldn't have done - she'd have been happy to spend big on pet regions (whilst forcing everyone else to tighten their belts)
 

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(e.g. Tees Valley) is anything that Thatcher wouldn't have done - she'd have been happy to spend big on pet regions (whilst forcing everyone else to tighten their belts)
There was the famous "walk in the wilderness" that Thatcher made on Teesside before the Teesside Development Corporation got to work in regenerating parts of Teesside. TDC was held out to be "Thatchers pet project". Personally, I always thought she had come to admire her handiwork.

Evening Gazette: Did things change much after Maggie Thatcher's famous walk in the wilderness 30 years ago?
 

MattRat

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Agree entirely.

The Tories have no idealogy only the pursuit of power, Labour seemingly have little interest in power only idealogy. Blair adopted the Tory approach and was rewarded with 3 election wins and the everlasting despisement of large segments of his own party. The same party that has now lost 4 general elections in a row and even when faced by a government that has been in disarray for nearly 5 years hasnt managed to lay a finger on them and is heading for a 5th defeat. Labour needs to demonstrate they want to win and seen to be listening to what the electorate want.
It's almost as if Labour don't want to win....
This is where I am very conflicted.
I actually agree with your point - that most people don't give a damn about that side of things and that it probably turns a lot of people off.

At the same time I simply cannot turn my back on my partner and some of my friends who identify in some way with the trans community. It is easy to label it as pointless identity politics when it doesn't affect you (and one thing you'll notice is a lot of the discussions about this somehow manage to actually leave out trans people from the conversation - a point well made on BBC Radio 4 the other day by the person who runs PinkNews), but when these people are trying to say that my partner and some of my friends shouldn't be able to use the toilets in a public place, or are somehow automatically rapists because they are trans, or even that they shouldn't even exist at all, then I take that pretty personally - and obviously it is a lot worse for my partner and friends who are the ones directly affected by it. And even for those who aren't part of the trans community, I certainly have female friends who just happen to look a bit masculine get abused because they dared to use the toilets they are supposed to use - and that abuse has been directly fueled by the spread of transphobia within the country.

So what should I do? Ignore the problem and essentially further isolate my partner and friends who are already pretty isolated and vulnerable? Or support them, knowing that doing so isn't a popular opinion politically? And that is exactly the same no win situation that Labour in general are in with this.
Meanwhile there is a giant poverty/homeless crisis that Labour (and others) could focus on that is being ignored. Your issue isn't other people's issue. The easiest thing to do is make it a background policy to better focus on helping the majority (how you win elections).
 

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Corbyn.

No further discussion required.

Foot also " longest suicide note in history". I think they have been here before. The workers paradise of the Soviet Union no longer exists, so they can't say - here is a working alternative to that nasty capitalism ( not that the soviet union was ever a paradise anyway.
 

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Recently, I have been talking to various people in pubs, which, evidently, I haven’t been able to do for a bit. The general opinion is that Boris is an idiot, but he’s done the vaccination programme well. Nobody mentions Labour. They have become inconsequential.
 

MattRat

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Recently, I have been talking to various people in pubs, which, evidently, I haven’t been able to do for a bit. The general opinion is that Boris is an idiot, but he’s done the vaccination programme well. Nobody mentions Labour. They have become inconsequential.
Correction, Kate Bingham did the vaccination programme well. The fact Conservative opponents fail to bring this up just shows how incompetent they are.
 

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