Where will the last semaphore signals be on the national network?

[LowLevel]

The North Staffs line from Derby to Crewe has to be a contender for the last semaphores ever.
It's always been a Cinderella line, as it links the two major centres of the LMS - Crewe on the LNWR and Derby on the Midland. As such, the line between them has been seen as "foreign" by both rival (but forced to talk to each other) management teams. So it'll get updated only when there's something that forces the issue - such as a catastrophic level crossing incident, heaven forbid.

It nearly went a few years ago but slipped down the priority pile. I don't think it will be too long mind. They want to run more services and the current box opening hours get in the way. There's also plans from time to time to single Meir Tunnel to get bigger freight trains through too.

 

[OuterDistant]

Speaking of the North Staffs, in the event of a nuclear war the only survivors would probably be cockroaches, W123 Mercedes Benzes and the Foley Crossing Down Distant signal

 

[LowLevel]

Speaking of the North Staffs, in the event of a nuclear war the only survivors would probably be cockroaches, W123 Mercedes Benzes and the Foley Crossing Down Distant signal

I am surprised it has never been taken out by an errant fridge or dining table being lobbed down the embankment. Meir old station to Longton is a notorious "bomb alley" for trains to hit crap thrown on the track by vandals, and has been for many decades I believe. Sometimes the little darlings get very precious and drag stuff into the tunnel itself.

I believe BTP have recently rounded up a fair number of them though following a sting operation.

 

[Dan17H]

All colour light

There are still semaphores at Deal (Kent) and Littlehampton/Bognor Regis (West Sussex) but I reckon these will go sooner rather than later, and thus won't be the last on the national network

I examined the couple of Semaphores on the platform at Bognor Regis a few weeks back, they're in good condition, so until they remove Bognor Regis Signal Box (which isn't in the pipeline as far as I'm aware) they'll be there for sometime.

 

[High Dyke]

Till When ?

The suggestion, by management, is 2023.

 

[Tio Terry]

The suggestion, by management, is 2023.

I will be surprised if that turns out to be less than 2033!

 

[High Dyke]

I will be surprised if that turns out to be less than 2033!

You never know. However, the box equipment has been declared life expired, as I understand it.

 

[wallan]

The suggestion, by management, is 2023.

Thank You

 

[Tio Terry]

You never know. However, the box equipment has been declared life expired, as I understand it.

There are an awful lot of places where the same is true. Also a lot of places suffering wiring degradation. But there is only so much money and limited Design, Installation and T&C resources.

 

[LowLevel]

You never know. However, the box equipment has been declared life expired, as I understand it.

I think the ancient 60s power signalling Newark - Collingham has gotten to be increasingly problematic too!

 

[Annetts key]

There are an awful lot of places where the same is true. Also a lot of places suffering wiring degradation. But there is only so much money and limited Design, Installation and T&C resources.

Even ‘relatively’ recent (late 1980s) colour light track circuit block areas suffer from wiring degradation.

 

[D6130]

Even ‘relatively’ recent (late 1980s) colour light track circuit block areas suffer from wiring degradation.

At the risk of going OT, can anyone think of the oldest colour light signalling scheme still in use on the network? I think it may be Dumfries (1956). This probably warrants a new thread TBH.

 

[MadMac]

At the risk of going OT, can anyone think of the oldest colour light signalling scheme still in use on the network? I think it may be Dumfries (1956). This probably warrants a new thread TBH.

Off the top of the head, I can’t think of an older C/L installation, at least in Scotland. Elsewhere: maybe Plymouth, which I think dates from 1960?

 

[Ashley Hill]

I was recently told that part of Plymouth panel has parts recovered from Birmingham Snow Hill box in it!

 

[cogload]

Pretty much all of Cornwall is still semaphores (Liskeard onwards). Unsure if there are any plans to change that soon.

Truro, Par and Lostwithiel are slated for closure in the Autumn of 2023. A contract has been signed with Westinghouse for resignalling, control will move to Exeter PSB initially.

 

[Gloster]

Truro, Par and Lostwithiel are slated for closure in the Autumn of 2023. A contract has been signed with Westinghouse for resignalling, control will move to Exeter PSB initially.

So will they be keeping Liskeard as an island between two sections of TCB, or will it go under Plymouth as was suggested in the 1980s (with Lostwitniel as the fringe)? And will St Blazey and Goonbarrow Junction remain?

 

[zwk500]

At the risk of going OT, can anyone think of the oldest colour light signalling scheme still in use on the network? I think it may be Dumfries (1956). This probably warrants a new thread TBH.

Apols for the brief deviation off topic. The southern was installing Colour lights in the 30s, although I don't know to what extent they were MAS/TCB or just AB with CL signals.
There was also the LMS's Watford DC line signalling and Mirfield Signals.
Not sure if there are any pre-grouping examples though.

 

[S&CLER]

Apols for the brief deviation off topic. The southern was installing Colour lights in the 30s, although I don't know to what extent they were MAS/TCB or just AB with CL signals.
There was also the LMS's Watford DC line signalling and Mirfield Signals.
Not sure if there are any pre-grouping examples though.

I believe the Liverpool Overhead converted to colour lights as early as 1921. It had previously had an automatic system using semaphores, itself a UK first.

 

[John Webb]

Apols for the brief deviation off topic. The southern was installing Colour lights in the 30s, although I don't know to what extent they were MAS/TCB or just AB with CL signals....

The Southern Railway rapidly adopted 4-aspect/TCB signalling from 1926 onwards for a number of busy areas around London Bridge-Charing Cross and Cannon Street as they were electrified. (Followed from the 1922-24 IRSE committee's debate on 3-aspect semaphore signalling which ended up recommending 3 and 4-aspect CLS and making semaphore distant signals yellow to match the cautionary yellow of the CLS!)

 

[zwk500]

The Southern Railway rapidly adopted 4-aspect/TCB signalling from 1926 onwards for a number of busy areas around London Bridge-Charing Cross and Cannon Street. (Followed from the 1922-24 IRSE committee's debate on 3-aspect semaphore signalling which ended up recommending 3 and 4-aspect CLS!)

Interesting, thanks!

 

[30907]

Interesting, thanks!

And then did the southern part of the Central Section Main Line to Brighton (from Coulsdon N via Quarry IIRC). None of those schemes have survived untouched, of course.

 

[nw1]

I was just thinking, and Banbury might be an example of how the installation of new semaphores doesn't necessarily guarantee that they remain for a long time after: new semaphores were installed in 2010, and then six years later (so not immediately, but still not a very long time after on the grand scale of things), in 2016, the area was re-signalled and all of the semaphores were removed. Although obviously it will depend on the priority of re-signalling an area for as to when it will lose its semaphores and a freight-only line, for example, with new semaphores is likely to retain them for longer than a mainline station (like Banbury) which gets them.

-Peter

Reminds me of my first trip through that area in December 1982, three months after first using the railways.
Got the one-a-day Cross Country service from Guildford to Stafford so passed through the area. Being used to colour light signals on the Portsmouth Direct, it struck me how olde-worlde the lines in that area seemed, what with the semaphore signals and the (as-was-named) "Tackley Halt", and Heyford with its (as was) GWR old-style name plates. The area also seemed deeply rural and unspoilt, which before the building of the M40 I suppose it was.

Do have a fairly recent memory of seeing a semaphore in the Aynho junction area though not sure exactly when that was.

 

[Peter C]

Reminds me of my first trip through that area in December 1982, three months after first using the railways.
Got the one-a-day Cross Country service from Guildford to Stafford so passed through the area. Being used to colour light signals on the Portsmouth Direct, it struck me how olde-worlde the lines in that area seemed, what with the semaphore signals and the (as-was-named) "Tackley Halt", and Heyford with its (as was) GWR old-style name plates.

Do have a fairly recent memory of seeing a semaphore in the Aynho junction area though not sure exactly when that was.

I would have loved to have seen the railways in that area at that time. Much more modern now!

-Peter

 

[Deepgreen]

Is the Dudding Hill line the last part of London to have Semaphores? I know they were also replaced like-for-like not too long ago so don't think they're going anywhere anytime soon.

Does a fixed distant signal that is just a board showing a horizontal distant semaphore on it and linked with an AWS magnet count as a semaphore signal?

A Dudding Hill replacement (camera held at arm's length from the public side, standing in waist-high nettles!): https://flic.kr/p/2jfaZo9

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I can't see Shrewsbury being resignalled any time soon. For one thing you'd lose shedloads of platform capacity as the new design would have to be compliant with modern standards and include irritating details such as signalling overlaps etc! The current arrangement with fixed distants and junctions right on the end of platforms can't be easily recreated with MAS without losing critical capacity and operational capabilities.

 

[Gloster]

Do have a fairly recent memory of seeing a semaphore in the Aynho junction area though not sure exactly when that was.

Aynho Junction Signal Box closed in 1992 (I think, as I can’t find the exact date). I have a vague recollection of the gutted building still being there a bit later, but the signals would have gone at the time of commissioning of the new signalling, or at least become armless posts.

 

[Deepgreen]

I can't see Shrewsbury being resignalled any time soon. For one thing you'd lose shedloads of platform capacity as the new design would have to be compliant with modern standards and include irritating details such as signalling overlaps etc! The current arrangement with fixed distants and junctions right on the end of platforms can't be easily recreated with MAS without losing critical capacity and operational capabilities.

That is an interesting point - assuming the current arrangement is considered safe to operate (obviously), then it's a sobering thought that a new system would reduce capacity and can;t be designed to at least maintain current capacity. One would imagine and hope that the opposite would be true. While I understand that changes to standards are intended to improve safety, it does call into question the exploration of means to maximise railway capacity.

 

[cogload]

So will they be keeping Liskeard as an island between two sections of TCB, or will it go under Plymouth as was suggested in the 1980s (with Lostwitniel as the fringe)? And will St Blazey and Goonbarrow Junction remain?

At the moment the answers are yes and yes. Roskear to PZ will also remain for the time being.

 

[181]

Do have a fairly recent memory of seeing a semaphore in the Aynho junction area though not sure exactly when that was.

Aynho Junction Signal Box closed in 1992 (I think, as I can’t find the exact date). I have a vague recollection of the gutted building still being there a bit later, but the signals would have gone at the time of commissioning of the new signalling, or at least become armless posts.

A few miles the other side of Banbury, there were semaphores at Fenny Compton until what seems like (but may not be!) fairly recently; this suggests 2004. They controlled at least one of the main running lines, whereas I think the Banbury ones by then only controlled loops/sidings/crossover moves.

 

[nw1]

A few miles the other side of Banbury, there were semaphores at Fenny Compton until what seems like (but may not be!) fairly recently; this suggests 2004. They controlled at least one of the main running lines, whereas I think the Banbury ones by then only controlled loops/sidings/crossover moves.

The one I remember was up on the Marylebone line just before it joined the Oxford-Banbury line, just before the junction and on an embankment.

Could have sworn that was still there until recently - but looks like it must have been before 1992. I did travel this way in 1990, the first occasion since 1984, so maybe I was seeing it in 1990 and thinking that semaphore signals seemed very 'old-style' for the nineties, particularly as by then, this was NSE territory.