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Which rule takes priority?

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roversfan2001

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Does the rule where any route within 3 miles of the shortest route is valid or the rule where your ticket expires when you stop at your destination take priority; where there is a case of a train with the stopping pattern A-B-C and a ticket from A-B with A-(B)-C-B being a valid route?
 
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cuccir

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The 'doubling back' rule wins, unless there is an easement to allow it. So (for example) a ticket from Newcastle to Dunston is not valid for travel Newcastle - Dunston - Metrocentre - Dunston, even though the total distance travelled is within 3 miles of Newcastle - Dunston.
 

kieron

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Does the rule where any route within 3 miles of the shortest route is valid or the rule where your ticket expires when you stop at your destination take priority; where there is a case of a train with the stopping pattern A-B-C and a ticket from A-B with A-(B)-C-B being a valid route?
Neither of those are rules in the sense of being something which applies to all tickets and routes. The first sounds like something which used to be in the routeing guide (ticket sites are written so as to allow this in many circumstances, but this doesn't imply anything about tickets the site doesn't sell for a journey). The second sounds like a misunderstanding of the idea of using a permitted route between your origin and destination.

Consequently, there are As, Bs and Cs, for which your suggested journey is valid, and others for which it is invalid. If you don't wish to say where you're thinking of or find out how route validity works for yourself, the best I can suggest is to enter the route you're interested in on a ticket site and see what it offers you.
 

Qwerty133

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I can't see why you would be able to pass your destination on a train stopping there then double back to it. Totally ridiculous and unreasonable.
Obviously except in cases where a disabled passenger wishes to alight at a station where only 1 platform is accessible or where there is a lift out of order, may also be reasonable for passengers to join a late running service on a branch line on its way to the terminus rather than on the way back.
 

Bletchleyite

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Obviously except in cases where a disabled passenger wishes to alight at a station where only 1 platform is accessible or where there is a lift out of order, may also be reasonable for passengers to join a late running service on a branch line on its way to the terminus rather than on the way back.

Indeed. But the former would be a "reasonable adjustment" made regardless of whether it was technically a permitted route or not, and the latter guard's discretion.
 

Starmill

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I can't see why you would be able to pass your destination on a train stopping there then double back to it. Totally ridiculous and unreasonable.

It would be permitted if you were travelling from your origin station to an appropriate origin routeing point, and then back again along a mapped route from there to your appropriate destination routeing point. Regardless of your views of what's ridiculous and unreasonable.
 

yorkie

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The 'doubling back' rule wins, unless there is an easement to allow it. So (for example) a ticket from Newcastle to Dunston is not valid for travel Newcastle - Dunston - Metrocentre - Dunston, even though the total distance travelled is within 3 miles of Newcastle - Dunston.
I am not sure what rule you are quoting.

I can't see why you would be able to pass your destination on a train stopping there then double back to it. Totally ridiculous and unreasonable.
You can replace that to simply say the ticket expires (and the contract is fulfilled) when you call at the station printed on your ticket.
 

sheff1

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You can replace that to simply say the ticket expires (and the contract is fulfilled) when you call at the station printed on your ticket.

Unless there is more than one destination station printed on the ticket. ;)
 

cactustwirly

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Does the rule where any route within 3 miles of the shortest route is valid or the rule where your ticket expires when you stop at your destination take priority; where there is a case of a train with the stopping pattern A-B-C and a ticket from A-B with A-(B)-C-B being a valid route?

No because you're doing a double back, which is forbidden unless there's a specific easement.
 

Bletchleyite

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You can replace that to simply say the ticket expires (and the contract is fulfilled) when you call at the station printed on your ticket.

Agreed, or if it's a station group calls at the member of the station group on a Permitted Route which you have selected as your destination.

A lot of people seem to be seeing this as a simple double-back because the train doesn't stop in one direction - it's not - the OP said a journey A-B-C-B *where the train calls at B in both directions*.
 

reb0118

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e.g. Historically there were through trains from Carlisle (their origin was south thereof) to Aberdeen via Edinburgh. Some may have stopped at Haymarket in both directions.
 

Bletchleyite

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e.g. Historically there were through trains from Carlisle (their origin was south thereof) to Aberdeen via Edinburgh. Some may have stopped at Haymarket in both directions.

And doubling back within a station group is allowed but only in the middle of the journey AIUI, not the start/end. This is to make for better connections.

OTOH, if you do something like Manchester Oxford Road - Manchester Picc then back to Liverpool (for increased chance of a seat), you are not going to get challenged even if you're not strictly allowed to do that.
 

cuccir

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A lot of people seem to be seeing this as a simple double-back because the train doesn't stop in one direction - it's not - the OP said a journey A-B-C-B *where the train calls at B in both directions*.

Where does the post say that?
 

cuccir

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I am not sure what rule you are quoting.

Step 3 of document A in the routing guide means we can't use it for common routing points. And as we're doubling back, we cant use the routeing point in question for longer journeys. . With - as always - the exception that easements can change this.

And if there are no appropriate routeing points, then still not allowed for the reason you gave.

So it's not one rule, but multiple.
 
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yorkie

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Ah you are referring to this....
No doubling back (passing through the same station twice on a single journey) is allowed which may require customers to change trains short of the routeing point, unless an easement allows a longer alternative route
The wording of that is terrible and is open to interpretation. There is no punctuation between "is allowed" and "which may require", which makes its meaning arguably ambiguous.

It is also contradicted by the Routeing Guide in Detail which states:
If a journey does not have an origin routeing point and a destination routeing point, its permitted route is (1) the shortest route served by a regular passenger service or (2) a route no more then 3 miles longer or (3) any other route permitted by an easement.
Arguably (2) does not require (3) to be valid.

In order to do a proper check, the full details of the journey need to be known.

But this isn't answering the OP's question; the OP wants to know if a passenger can choose to remain on the train beyond the destination printed on the ticket, on the basis of holding an itinerary advising them to do that. I do not think it is wise to do this.
 

Bletchleyite

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Where does the post say that?

Does the rule where any route within 3 miles of the shortest route is valid or the rule where your ticket expires when you stop at your destination take priority; where there is a case of a train with the stopping pattern A-B-C and a ticket from A-B with A-(B)-C-B being a valid route?

The bold bit.

It reads to me like the OP is wanting to make a small additional return journey on the end of no more than 1.5 miles in each direction for fun.
 

yorkie

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The bold bit.

It reads to me like the OP is wanting to make a small additional return journey on the end of no more than 1.5 miles in each direction for fun.
It could be much further than that!

e.g. Creswell to Worksop is a just under 12 mile double-back and would be valid under routeing rules for a ticket from Creswell to somewhere south of Creswell where the fare is the same from Worksop.
 

roversfan2001

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The bold bit.

It reads to me like the OP is wanting to make a small additional return journey on the end of no more than 1.5 miles in each direction for fun.
Oh no, not for fun, no one would want to go to Blackburn for fun! The ticketed journey would have been Lostock Hall to Mill Hill (Lancs). I know that Preston to Mill Hill is valid via Blackburn but half the trains from PRE are non-stop to Blackburn. I wanted to stop short at Blackburn as the fare to MLH is considerably cheaper.
 

yorkie

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Oh, I see. So you do want to pass through B non-stop the first time. Thanks.
There are 2tph on this line.

If taking the stopper, the ticket expires before Blackburn is reached.

If taking the fast train, then break of journey is permitted but any gateline staff may not like it.
 

tony_mac

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Ah you are referring to this....
The wording of that is terrible and is open to interpretation. There is no punctuation between "is allowed" and "which may require", which makes its meaning arguably ambiguous.

It is also contradicted by the Routeing Guide in Detail which states:
It is contradicted again, even more directly, by the Routeing Guide in Detail
Also permitted is the route followed by direct trains to and from the common routeing point if the journey is made on those trains
And the example it gives is of a journey that does involve doubling-back through a station (Tyseley), which it specifically says is ok as long as you take direct trains to/from the routeing point.
(You can no longer actually follow the example, as the routeing points have changed since it was written. )
 

Merseysider

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On a related note, what's the general opinion on alighting at Georgemas Junction the second time around:

1828 Inverness - Wick calls at Georgemas Junction at 2206 and again at 2233.

It's a direct train from origin to destination, per the NRCOT, but the ticket arguably is only valid as far as Georgemas Junction before it continues to Thurso and back.

National Rail seems to think that's fine however. All academic of course <D
 

marshmallow

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Does the rule where any route within 3 miles of the shortest route is valid or the rule where your ticket expires when you stop at your destination take priority; where there is a case of a train with the stopping pattern A-B-C and a ticket from A-B with A-(B)-C-B being a valid route?

I have thought about this and interestingly, one could perhaps justify using such a ticket to make unlimited journeys between B and C since you are always on a valid route to the other...however in practice I don't think you can really do this. It is often a loophole though that a ticket from A-B is cheaper than from A-C, however is valid via C so is a good way of saving money if you spot it!
 

yorkie

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On a related note, what's the general opinion on alighting at Georgemas Junction the second time around:

1828 Inverness - Wick calls at Georgemas Junction at 2206 and again at 2233.

It's a direct train from origin to destination, per the NRCOT, but the ticket arguably is only valid as far as Georgemas Junction before it continues to Thurso and back.

National Rail seems to think that's fine however. All academic of course <D
Well, you know my opinion on that!
I think most people would agree that the ticket expires when you reach your destination, and booking engines probably shouldn't be allowing a train to call at the destination twice, but in practice the staff are probably not going to mind in this example.

It may seem a bit odd, however if you had a good explanation (e.g. if you were having to wait for someone and the weather conditions were poor) it would likely be considered acceptable. Many of the Guards on the north of Inverness services often seem to have friendly conversations with passengers.
I have thought about this and interestingly, one could perhaps justify using such a ticket to make unlimited journeys between B and C since you are always on a valid route to the other...
You could not possibly justify it.
however in practice I don't think you can really do this.
In practice I am aware of people making many journeys between stations such as Haymarket and Edinburgh Waverley (though I can't see the attraction in doing this myself)
It is often a loophole though that a ticket from A-B is cheaper than from A-C, however is valid via C so is a good way of saving money if you spot it!
Yes but be discreet otherwise the tickets may have their validity altered.

By the way, it sounds like you may be interested in joining us at one of our free Fares Workshops? Feel free to reply to the thread if so :)
 

yorkie

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By the way an example that was brought up at a recent forum meal by @wellhouse was Manchester Stns to Slaithwaite, routed "Any Permitted".

This is valid between Manchester and Huddersfield Group as per the Routeing Guide maps, and then from Huddersfield Group to Slaithwaite.

There is no easement required to double-back via Huddersfield; it's quite simply valid as per the Routeing Guide rules.
 
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