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Which timetable for delay repay?

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Jan Mayen

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Reading the GA and other threads had me wondering as to which timetable should be used when claiming delay repay.

Let's use tomorrow, Sunday 7 February 2021 and the GTR Victoria - Brighton mainline as an example.

There is the timetable published last year starting in December. There have been a couple of Covid variations, an amendment for tomorrow's planned engineering works, a variation due to the emergency speed restriction (5mph on the down fast near Salfords) and now changes due to tomorrow's forecast bad weather.

Assuming I have a season ticket starting on 1 January, and assuming I had been planning on going to work tomorrow (this is hypothetical, although it wasn't last year), which timetable should I claim against?

(My usual practice under such circumstances would be to get to the station early and seen what happened as I only live a few minutes walk away from Three Bridges)
 
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Haywain

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The timetable advertised at the time the ticket was purchased.
Subject to the proviso that for a season ticket holder the timetable may change during the course of the period covered and it is the published timetable that you claim against.
 

Deafdoggie

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Subject to the proviso that for a season ticket holder the timetable may change during the course of the period covered and it is the published timetable that you claim against.
Sorry to be a bit thick, but do you mean planned timetable changes such as May & December, or additional changes such as Covid, engineering, weather, etc?
With the former I think is fair enough as the timetable is dated when you purchase the ticket, with the others it is less clear cut.
 

Haywain

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Sorry to be a bit thick, but do you mean planned timetable changes such as May & December, or additional changes such as Covid, engineering, weather, etc?
With the former I think is fair enough as the timetable is dated when you purchase the ticket, with the others it is less clear cut.
Planned timetable changes which have an explicitly stated period of validity. As you say, with engineering and pandemic changes it is less clear cut.

And no need for apologies as I could perhaps have been clearer if it hadn’t been so late!
 

eoff

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Reading the GA and other threads had me wondering as to which timetable should be used when claiming delay repay.
The Delay Repay information on the TOC websites should tell you. It does for Greater Anglia....

Delays are calculated against the planned, advertised timetable so compensation is not usually offered during periods of pre-planned engineering works and when replacement bus services are used.

Of course you don't have to travel, if you have purchased a ticket and the train is no longer timetabled them I'm sure you can get the money back if you want.

I suppose a more interesting question arises if there is a short-notice temporary service involving buses. As I see it the TOC will try to wriggle out of any delay claims based on the train journey time (by train here I mean a real train not a specially defined term designed as a cop out in terms and conditions).
 

30907

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The Delay Repay information on the TOC websites should tell you. It does for Greater Anglia....



Of course you don't have to travel, if you have purchased a ticket and the train is no longer timetabled them I'm sure you can get the money back if you want.
Pandemic changes replacing the normal timetable would IMO count as the advertised service - even if advertised only the night before. But it is a grey area and was probably never considered when the rules were drawn up!
 

Hadders

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Pandemic changes replacing the normal timetable would IMO count as the advertised service - even if advertised only the night before. But it is a grey area and was probably never considered when the rules were drawn up!
That is what Train Operating Companies would like the position to be. However if you purchase a ticket in good faith then the timings given in the itinerary at the time the ticket is purchased are what should count for delay repay purposes.

I'd have more sympathy for the TOCs position if they notified you of a change to the timing of a service. The fact that they don't do that really is poor (if Ryanair and Easyjet can manage it I don't see why the TOCs can't)
 

eoff

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That is what Train Operating Companies would like the position to be. However if you purchase a ticket in good faith then the timings given in the itinerary at the time the ticket is purchased are what should count for delay repay purposes.

I'd have more sympathy for the TOCs position if they notified you of a change to the timing of a service. The fact that they don't do that really is poor (if Ryanair and Easyjet can manage it I don't see why the TOCs can't)
I think you have to be careful here, and would welcome other thoughts on this.

Delay Repay is a Rail industry initiative which you can choose to use.

But TOCs also have to operate services with reasonable skill and deliver the service you paid for since the Consumer Rights Act applies to them, this will trump their terms and conditions and any compensation schemes they may offer. There are cases where you have rights under that Act not covered under the Delay Repay scheme in which case an approach to customer services would be the first step.

More info below:

 

Hadders

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Regardless of whether Delay Repay is an industry initiative or contractual entitlement the National Rail Conditions of Carriage set out minimum standards of compensation in the event of a delay and that is a contractual entitlement, and cannot be overiden.

The NRCoC also says that you can claim under the relevant TOC Delay Repay scheme or under the Consumer Rights Act (although you cannot claim for the same issue more than once under different schemes).
 

philthetube

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The one thing which stands out to me reading this thread is that you should keep a copy of your tindery when buying your ticket.
 

Llanigraham

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That is what Train Operating Companies would like the position to be. However if you purchase a ticket in good faith then the timings given in the itinerary at the time the ticket is purchased are what should count for delay repay purposes.

I'd have more sympathy for the TOCs position if they notified you of a change to the timing of a service. The fact that they don't do that really is poor (if Ryanair and Easyjet can manage it I don't see why the TOCs can't)
How do you expect an operator to notify someone of any changes to the timetable who buys tickets either from a third party retailer or from a ticket machine?
 

Hadders

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How do you expect an operator to notify someone of any changes to the timetable who buys tickets either from a third party retailer or from a ticket machine?
Agree about ticket machines but there won't be many people who purchase tickets in advance from a ticket machine.

As for 3rd party retailers they are notified when schedules are changed as they have to update their own booking engines. Trainsplit itineraries already have details of when a schedule was last changed so it wouldn't be hard to connect this to an auto generated email when a schedule is changed.
 

Llanigraham

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Agree about ticket machines but there won't be many people who purchase tickets in advance from a ticket machine.

As for 3rd party retailers they are notified when schedules are changed as they have to update their own booking engines. Trainsplit itineraries already have details of when a schedule was last changed so it wouldn't be hard to connect this to an auto generated email when a schedule is changed.

Might agree about ticket machines, but I have certainly done so. However more often than not I buy them from the ticket office at a local station, so how will it work there?

And your later point presumes that people have continual access to the web; they don't.
 

Hadders

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Might agree about ticket machines, but I have certainly done so. However more often than not I buy them from the ticket office at a local station, so how will it work there?

And your later point presumes that people have continual access to the web; they don't.
To be fair you won't be able to notify people who have purchased tickets in advance from a station ticket office, but I strongly suspect they are in the minority. Just because it can't be done for ticket machine and ticket office sales doesn't mean it shouldn't be done for other fulfillment methods. Continuous access to the internet isn't required either: Easyjet and Ryanair manage to send emails and text messages in the event of disruption, there is no reason why the rail industry cannot do likewise.
 

SickyNicky

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As for 3rd party retailers they are notified when schedules are changed as they have to update their own booking engines. Trainsplit itineraries already have details of when a schedule was last changed so it wouldn't be hard to connect this to an auto generated email when a schedule is changed.

We already do that. If the timetable changes after booking, we'll email you to tell you.
 

packermac

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I think the whole DR thing is quite unclear. Which timetable, can you claim against an emergency timetable & do cancellations count on only some journeys?

Below are the words from the SWR Passenger Charter (Nov 19 update) as a random example being my local line. The way I read this is you can only claim on a cancelled train if it causes you to miss a connecting train. Emergency timetables do not mention being able to make any claim at all.

If you’re travelling on one of our trains and are delayed by 15 minutes or longer, you can claim compensation under our Delay Repay scheme regardless of the reason for the delay and if you used your Oyster card or a contactless payment method to buy your ticket.
This also applies if your train is delayed or cancelled and this causes you to miss a connecting National Rail train.

If an emergency or amended timetable is in place, we will publish this beforehand and your Delay Repay compensation for delays is calculated according to the revised timetable.

We may introduce an emergency or amended timetable for reasons such as planned or emergency engineering work, industrial action and severe weather conditions.
 

Hadders

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I think the whole DR thing is quite unclear. Which timetable, can you claim against an emergency timetable & do cancellations count on only some journeys?

Below are the words from the SWR Passenger Charter (Nov 19 update) as a random example being my local line. The way I read this is you can only claim on a cancelled train if it causes you to miss a connecting train. Emergency timetables do not mention being able to make any claim at all.
The wording could be better but if your journey is delayed by 15 minutes or more (which it normally would be if the train you intend to get is cancelled) then you can claim.
 

island

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Regardless of whether Delay Repay is an industry initiative or contractual entitlement the National Rail Conditions of Carriage set out minimum standards of compensation in the event of a delay and that is a contractual entitlement, and cannot be overiden.
That much is true, but the NRCoT minimum standards of compensation, which form part of the contract, are less than the amount payable under the DelayRepay schemes of nearly all TOCs. (From memory, Miseryrail and London Overground offer only the NRCoT minima for journeys including travel on another company.)

It seems to me that one can claim DelayRepay based on the timetable in place on the day, NRCoT percentages based on the timetable in place when one booked, or under the Consumer Rights Act for failing to perform a service with reasonable skill and care. You cannot, of course, claim under multiple heads for the same damage.
 

yorkie

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If a single or return ticket is purchased in conjunction with an itinerary, it is clearly the timetable that was in place at the time of purchase; the itinerary is evidence of the contract.

If we are talking about a Season ticket, it is a grey area.
 

robbeech

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Might agree about ticket machines, but I have certainly done so. However more often than not I buy them from the ticket office at a local station, so how will it work there?

And your later point presumes that people have continual access to the web; they don't.

I think we can pick holes in the idea and find groups of people that this proposed idea won't work for all day if we want, but i'd say it was somewhat poor to abandon any attempt to provide a better service for the majority of passengers just because it won't help those few who just happened to pop to a ticket office 3 weeks before they wanted to travel to buy their ticket.
It IS possible to do it, as proved by Trainsplit, but there isn't really an incentive to do it because the operators don't pay out by default on these types of delays even though the law says they should. It's only when pushed will they consider it, and the costs are low, so it is a better investment.

All it needs is an email or text message to say "you're booked on this train, we've spotted that the timetable has changed, it MAY affect your journey, click HERE to check the current timetable".
Then a bit of waffle about refunds if you don't want to travel now the time table has changed (but again, that would cost them money so they're unlikely to consider this).

The whole revising the timetable at 2159 the night before, sending the train out 35 minutes earlier leaving people stranded or very late and then refusing to compensate them is against consumer regulations, it's against the details set out in the NRCOT and it's frankly nothing short of appalling customer service. So it is, in my opinion, incredibly well suited to The Railway, and completely unsurprising that this behaviour goes on.
 

Llanigraham

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I think we can pick holes in the idea and find groups of people that this proposed idea won't work for all day if we want, but i'd say it was somewhat poor to abandon any attempt to provide a better service for the majority of passengers just because it won't help those few who just happened to pop to a ticket office 3 weeks before they wanted to travel to buy their ticket.
It IS possible to do it, as proved by Trainsplit, but there isn't really an incentive to do it because the operators don't pay out by default on these types of delays even though the law says they should. It's only when pushed will they consider it, and the costs are low, so it is a better investment.

All it needs is an email or text message to say "you're booked on this train, we've spotted that the timetable has changed, it MAY affect your journey, click HERE to check the current timetable".
Then a bit of waffle about refunds if you don't want to travel now the time table has changed (but again, that would cost them money so they're unlikely to consider this).

The whole revising the timetable at 2159 the night before, sending the train out 35 minutes earlier leaving people stranded or very late and then refusing to compensate them is against consumer regulations, it's against the details set out in the NRCOT and it's frankly nothing short of appalling customer service. So it is, in my opinion, incredibly well suited to The Railway, and completely unsurprising that this behaviour goes on.
For probably 90% of my journeys that just won't work, I'm afraid. Generally I buy my tickets to London a couple of days in advance whilst I am passing Machynlleth Station, as I keep finding the machine at Caersws doesn't work at 0620 in the morning.
 

robbeech

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For probably 90% of my journeys that just won't work, I'm afraid. Generally I buy my tickets to London a couple of days in advance whilst I am passing Machynlleth Station, as I keep finding the machine at Caersws doesn't work at 0620 in the morning.
I think that's exactly my point. For 90% of YOUR journeys it might not work, but for many (most?) journeys not booked on the day this for most passengers it would work. I don't feel we should scrap the idea of trying to improve customer service for as many people as we can just because it won't work for yourself :) (not least because you'll have a better understanding of how it works, maybe easier access and a better ability to read the timetable data, and you'll remember this topic and consider checking the timetable to make sure it hasn't changed).
 
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