• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Who to claim from?

Status
Not open for further replies.

bb21

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
24,151
If you were referring to yorkie's post above then I'm afraid you are putting two and two together and producing a random number out of the hat, and I think you are way overthinking it.

There is no chance in hell that a train company would refuse to refund reasonable taxi fares if the customer were told to "make their own way", which should in itself be a very rare event. It is a massive minefield to assume that people should be using buses, or walk, between stations in the vast majority of cases. I would say it is probably the safest option in those cases to take a taxi.

If people were not told to "make their own way" but decide to book taxis on their own accord then things can be very different.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

sefton

Member
Joined
30 Oct 2017
Messages
590
So to go back to the OP's situation -

Announcements over the tannoy at Haymarket were that this could be disrupted for hours and passengers should make their own way on.

Would the train company be refunding all the customers who heard the tannoy announcement and concluded that a taxi was the most reasonable way to counter the disruption to their journey.

If so it would seem the train company is writing a pretty big blank check.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
30,692
Location
Scotland
If so it would seem the train company is writing a pretty big blank check.
But not completely blank as they can legitimately limit refunds to 'reasonable' amounts. So if you hired a helicopter you'd only get a taxi fare refund.
 

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
20,036
Location
No longer here
If you were referring to yorkie's post above then I'm afraid you are putting two and two together and producing a random number out of the hat, and I think you are way overthinking it.

There is no chance in hell that a train company would refuse to refund reasonable taxi fares if the customer were told to "make their own way", which should in itself be a very rare event. It is a massive minefield to assume that people should be using buses, or walk, between stations in the vast majority of cases. I would say it is probably the safest option in those cases to take a taxi.

If people were not told to "make their own way" but decide to book taxis on their own accord then things can be very different.

This.

I agree that the likelihood of getting taxi costs back is very variable and a lot rests on the individual circumstances of each case.

If the TOC advice was to make your own way then they really ought to refund the taxi fare upon presentation of a receipt. If a passenger makes that decision unilaterally then I would normally have applied the reasonableness test.

It should be borne in mind that the cheapest way to resolve a case at Customer Relations is to give the customer what they want, as long the request is reasonable. Each case costs £15-20 to handle and if the customer comes back once more then it’s going to cost you that sum again...!
 

sefton

Member
Joined
30 Oct 2017
Messages
590
But not completely blank as they can legitimately limit refunds to 'reasonable' amounts. So if you hired a helicopter you'd only get a taxi fare refund.

I would have thought a tannoy announcement to hundreds of customers at Haymarket was a big enough check to write.

Then you come to the issue of who's definition of reasonable, which as the train company has passed over responsibility for the journey to their customer must be their's.

So a customer at Haymarket substantially delayed might consider their journey to Inverness or Plymouth is best resolved by getting a taxi all the way there.
 

gray1404

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2014
Messages
6,574
Location
Merseyside
It is a shame that the OP has not been back to provide any additional information about their journey and that exact tickets they were using.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
30,692
Location
Scotland
So a customer at Haymarket substantially delayed might consider their journey to Inverness or Plymouth is best resolved by getting a taxi all the way there.
Seeing as trains were disrupted heading north it's highly unlikely a passenger for Plymouth would see a taxi as reasonable. As for a journey to Inverness, a taxi to Perth would be (just about) reasonable but all the way would not.
 

sefton

Member
Joined
30 Oct 2017
Messages
590
As for a journey to Inverness, a taxi to Perth would be (just about) reasonable but all the way would not.

Why? The train company has passed the decision making to the customer in the announcement to make their own way, so if the customer decides a taxi all the way is reasonable for them then it is reasonable.

If the train company wants to impose rules on reasonableness then it should inform the customer.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
30,692
Location
Scotland
Why? The train company has passed the decision making to the customer in the announcement to make their own way, so if the customer decides a taxi all the way is reasonable for them then it is reasonable.
'The man on the Clapham omnibus' would likely say that a taxi journey of 46 miles is reasonable, whereas a taxi journey of 155 miles (of which 112 miles parallels an open and running railway) is not. Especially considering that a journey from Haymarket to Inverness could still have been made by train!
 

sefton

Member
Joined
30 Oct 2017
Messages
590
'The man on the Clapham omnibus' would likely say that a taxi journey of 46 miles is reasonable, whereas a taxi journey of 155 miles (of which 112 miles parallels an open and running railway) is not. Especially considering that a journey from Haymarket to Inverness could still have been made by train!

It all depends on the circumstances. Although trains may have been running on the second leg the delay already suffered may mean that for the customer waiting for a train for the second leg is unreasonable but a taxi all the way is necessary and thus reasonable.

As the train company has passed over responsibility to their customer the question on reasonableness must be judged from their viewpoint not the train companies. If the train company wanted to retain control it could have done.
 

bb21

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
24,151
Why? The train company has passed the decision making to the customer in the announcement to make their own way, so if the customer decides a taxi all the way is reasonable for them then it is reasonable.

If the train company wants to impose rules on reasonableness then it should inform the customer.
This is getting rather silly.

I highly doubt anyone would hire a taxi all the way from Edinburgh to Inverness without speaking to the train company first.
 

sefton

Member
Joined
30 Oct 2017
Messages
590
I highly doubt anyone would hire a taxi all the way from Edinburgh to Inverness without speaking to the train company first.

I completely agree with you, but it was the assertion being made by others that if the train company had advised customers to make their own way there was no need to obtain permission.

I found this surprising as you might get some customers who would decide that a taxi some substantial distance was reasonable thus exposing the train company to a substantial cost.
 

bb21

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
24,151
There is not really much else I can add to this discussion. There is no hard and fast rule as to what the exact entitlement is in such cases. What is considered "reasonable" will vary depending on the specific circumstance and the TOC but as I mentioned earlier, generally speaking there is a lot of flexibility and leeway in terms of what TOCs will pay out on both on the grounds of good customer service and cost considerations. I have personally approved of taxi claims costing upwards of £200 despite the customer not seeking permission beforehand, but also rejected completely unnecessary ones under £20.

There will always be edge cases and extreme cases which may generate different types of response depending on the TOC, but that should by a long way be a very small minority. Some may fall into the category of requiring some intervention by the likes of Transport Focus or senior managers.

I know recent consumer rights legislation changed the dynamics surrounding liabilities quite a lot but until we have a clear set of test cases, this is unfortunately what we have to work with.
 

sefton

Member
Joined
30 Oct 2017
Messages
590
Interesting you have rejected some claims.

Were these for ones where the train company had advised customers to make their own way or ones where the customer had made the decision themselves.
 

bb21

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
24,151
Interesting you have rejected some claims.

Were these for ones where the train company had advised customers to make their own way or ones where the customer had made the decision themselves.

The ones I have rejected are all cases where the customer took it upon themselves to call for a taxi.

The number of cases which I have handled to date where the customer was told to make their own arrangements can be counted on one hand, from just two separate incidents. (I only handle escalated cases, so there may be more claims overall, but not from many incidents.) As I mentioned before, customers being told to make their own way should only be very rare occurrences, always as a last resort. One would need to have very good reasons rejecting claims in these cases.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
30,692
Location
Scotland
I completely agree with you, but it was the assertion being made by others that if the train company had advised customers to make their own way there was no need to obtain permission
I missed that one. Where was it said?
 
Last edited:

JamesT

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2015
Messages
2,641
It is a shame that the OP has not been back to provide any additional information about their journey and that exact tickets they were using.

What information above what I put in my original post would you like?
I've made the claim to Scotrail through their website, which does seem very geared to a single ticket. Though I uploaded an image which included both the Oxford-Birmingham and Birmingham-Kirkcaldy tickets. I didn't see anything regarding claiming for the bus trip I then did, though if I get a significant part of the £52 advance single back, £6.10 for the bus seems less important.
 

sefton

Member
Joined
30 Oct 2017
Messages
590
I missed that one. Where was it said?

This was said -

There is no chance in hell that a train company would refuse to refund reasonable taxi fares if the customer were told to "make their own way", which should in itself be a very rare event.

I still find it surprising that a train company would make a tannoy announcement that would apparently permit potentially hundreds of customers to make claims for taxi fares.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
30,692
Location
Scotland
I still find it surprising that a train company would make a tannoy announcement that would apparently permit potentially hundreds of customers to make claims for taxi fares.
I wasn't there so can't say for sure but I expect the announcement was something along the lines of "Passengers for stations to Markinch or the Fife Circle are advised to make their own arrangements. Passengers for other stations please speak with station staff."
 

sefton

Member
Joined
30 Oct 2017
Messages
590
I wasn't there so can't say for sure but I expect the announcement was something along the lines of "Passengers for stations to Markinch or the Fife Circle are advised to make their own arrangements. Passengers for other stations please speak with station staff."

An interesting conjecture but that wasn't what the OP said the announcement was.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
30,692
Location
Scotland
An interesting conjecture but that wasn't what the OP said the announcement was.
The OP didn't quote the announcement, they very loosely paraphrased it. Having spent a fair bit of time at Haymarket, I'm pretty confident that they didn't just say "Do what you want." They are petty good a suggesting alternative options.
 

sefton

Member
Joined
30 Oct 2017
Messages
590
The OP didn't quote the announcement, they very loosely paraphrased it. Having spent a fair bit of time at Haymarket, I'm pretty confident that they didn't just say "Do what you want." They are petty good a suggesting alternative options.

The OP seemed pretty clear when they said "Announcements over the tannoy at Haymarket were that this could be disrupted for hours and passengers should make their own way on" so I don't think it unreasonable to work on the basis of what someone who was actually there heard.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
30,692
Location
Scotland
The OP seemed pretty clear when they said "Announcements over the tannoy at Haymarket were that this could be disrupted for hours and passengers should make their own way on" so I don't think it unreasonable to work on the basis of what someone who was actually there heard.
Well that announcement, verbatim, makes zero sense at Haymarket since only one of two lines would have been affected, so at the very least it would have had to mention which services were affected. Using your mythical passenger for Plymouth, for example, they would only need to cross from platform 1 to platform 3 to get a service to Waverly.
 

JamesT

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2015
Messages
2,641
Well that announcement, verbatim, makes zero sense at Haymarket since only one of two lines would have been affected, so at the very least it would have had to mention which services were affected. Using your mythical passenger for Plymouth, for example, they would only need to cross from platform 1 to platform 3 to get a service to Waverly.

Yes, I did paraphrase it somewhat as my original post was a week after the event. (And we're now even further away so my memory might be a little woolly). It was made clear that the incident was at South Gyle and all services on that line heading towards Fife etc. were suspended. There was mention of ticket acceptance on the trams, and possibly something about local buses which didn't seem relevant to my trip. I spoke to one of the staff on the concourse and in the ticket office and they waved me out the front where they reckoned I should be able to get something. I did a bit of looking around the immediate area but didn't see any stops that appeared to be for long distance buses.
Looking it up later, it appears I possibly should have walked to the West End for the bus. But regardless there wasn't anything as detailed as that being offered as advice for onward travel.
 

JamesT

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2015
Messages
2,641
Scotrail have approved paying £52 which is a full refund of my Birmingham->Kirkcaldy ticket. I'm now trying an appeal to see if they'll pay up for the Oxford->Birmingham leg.

I haven't bothered trying to claim for the bus fare incurred as it seems fairly inconsequential.
 

gray1404

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2014
Messages
6,574
Location
Merseyside
Yes they definitely should be paying up for the ticket from Oxford AND the bus fare.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top