Why are so many TGV stations in the middle of nowhere?

[edwin_m]

Bit like Badminton?

Badminton could have been served by a shuttle(cock) bus.

 

[HSTEd]

Somewhat related question - many of these TGV stations in the middle of nowhere seem to have a siding at both ends.
Are these used for anything in particular? Just seems somewhat superfluous given the very simple layout.

 

[Bald Rick]

Somewhat related question - many of these TGV stations in the middle of nowhere seem to have a siding at both ends.
Are these used for anything in particular? Just seems somewhat superfluous given the very simple layout.

Engineering trains / plant. These need to have road access, and high speed point work onto the line; putting them at a station saves building an access and potentially a couple of sets of points.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I have been through the Channel Tunnel but still not been on a TGV. On my bucket list that is for sure.

If you've been on a Eurostar 373, a single-deck TGV is little different.
It's the same Alstom family, just a bit more spacious.

SNCF advised HS2 to avoid building "beetroot" stations at all costs, and so far they seem to have achieved that.
Solving the Bradford v Huddersfield dilemma on the TP new line is a tough one, however.

 

[Austriantrain]

SNCF advised HS2 to avoid building "beetroot" stations at all costs,

If so, then they have very little influence in their own country. The „Contournement Nimes - Montpellier“ is a disaster station-wise and its extension, the LGV Montpellier - Perpignan is planned to have a „betteraves“ station at Beziers and an absurdly sited station at Narbonne (on the south of the triangle, meaning that all trains Toulouse - Montpellier, probably the major Intercity traffic flow there, will have to reverse and thus lose most of the journey time gained by the LGV).

If you read French, the

transportrail - Le webmagazine des idées ferroviaires

Actualité, développement, réflexion et reportages sur les transports ferroviaires en France et en Europe

transportrail.canalblog.com

blog is a very interesting source for the ups and downs in LGV building (a critical one, though).

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

The proposed Bordeaux - Toulouse / Dax LGV (construction due to start in 2022) is also to have out-of-town stations for Agen, Montauban and Mont de Marsan. I think the lesson has been learnt from the LGV SEA (Tours - Bordeaux) that by using existing stations (Poitiers, Angoulême, Libourne) the timetable for the 'semi-fast' services to serve them becomes very complex and resource hungry. It is also difficult to make local journeys between these stations by TGV, and the service on the classic main-line has been reduced to thin to non-existent. Poitiers is particularly silly for the LGV runs through the city outskirts parallel to the A10 motorway, so a 'parkway' station would have been a much better option.

 

[Austriantrain]

The proposed Bordeaux - Toulouse / Dax LGV (construction due to start in 2022) is also to have out-of-town stations for Agen, Montauban and Mont de Marsan. I think the lesson has been learnt from the LGV SEA (Tours - Bordeaux) that by using existing stations (Poitiers, Angoulême, Libourne) the timetable for the 'semi-fast' services to serve them becomes very complex and resource hungry. It is also difficult to make local journeys between these stations by TGV, and the service on the classic main-line has been reduced to thin to non-existent.

Your second point is not a given, though, but simply a French decision, due to reservation-only TGVs. Those intermediate stations you mention could be perfect hubs for a Takt system.

I don’t think it is actually difficult to serve these stations either; it is another typical French decision that medium-sized cities need the fastest possible service to Paris, ideally non-stop, even if only a few times a day. „Station to station“ journey times with a number of intermediate stops (eg Angouleme to Paris with stops at Poitiers and St Pierre des Corps) would still be extremely fast and much faster than by car - if these services ran hourly, in effect, it would be a much more attractive service because while journey times would be somewhat longer, waiting times for the next train would be much shorter.

As to resource hungriness, you certainly have a point. However, intermediate stations immediately on an HSL also use up a lot of capacity, at least if not every train stops there (which is why I am curious how a potential Chiltern Parkway HS2 station would be served on a line that supposedly will have 17 trains an hour).

In my opinion however, the capacity point on the Tours - Bordeaux HSL is relatively moot. Since north of Tours it shares a common trunk with the Bretagne LGV, there will always be spare capacity. Same as on the Bordeaux - Toulouse HSL, which might at some point have a common section (with no stations or chords to the classic network) with the Bordeaux- Dax LGV and thus east of there, it will again always have spare capacity.

 

[Bald Rick]

The proposed Bordeaux - Toulouse / Dax LGV (construction due to start in 2022) is also to have out-of-town stations for Agen, Montauban and Mont de Marsan. I think the lesson has been learnt from the LGV SEA (Tours - Bordeaux) that by using existing stations (Poitiers, Angoulême, Libourne) the timetable for the 'semi-fast' services to serve them becomes very complex and resource hungry. It is also difficult to make local journeys between these stations by TGV, and the service on the classic main-line has been reduced to thin to non-existent. Poitiers is particularly silly for the LGV runs through the city outskirts parallel to the A10 motorway, so a 'parkway' station would have been a much better option.

Is construction start confirmed for next year? I hadn’t seen news on that. If so, it makes HS2 development seem positively rapid. I was in that part of the world 12 years ago and the ‘LGV - NON’ signs were out everywhere as the inquiry was underway.

which is why I am curious how a potential Chiltern Parkway HS2 station would be served on a line that supposedly will have 17 trains an hour)

It would be all or nothing.

 

[paul1609]

Calais Frethun is the TGV parkway sation for Kent & East Sussex.

 

[EastisECML]

Another factor is the LGV stations need a big site. The platforms are away from passing High speed trains on loops so have to have space for at least 4 decently spaced tracks plus 2 platforms. Some like Chessy (Disney Paris) are double decked with through lines underneath.

I think there are a couple of stations with emergency facilities for coupling trains, so the loops are >800m rather than 400m. These are long compared to a typical UK Intercity platform of only 240-280m

I though Marne la Vallee Chessy had the through lines on the outside of the platform loops? Presumably so Eurostar services could turn back without having to cross them.

Over in Germany and Spain I tend to travel on the traditional lines, but I have noticed that some of their high speed lines also have stations en route that are some way out from the nearest settlement or equivalent conventional line station.
Hence my dread at the HS2 in England having stations en route far from city centre transport hubs.

I noticed the Valencia terminal for HS services is 'downline' from the classic terminal and looks unconnected? And rather basic.

 

[Bald Rick]

I though Marne la Vallee Chessy had the through lines on the outside of the platform loops? Presumably so Eurostar services could turn back without having to cross them.

Correct

 

[30907]

I noticed the Valencia terminal for HS services is 'downline' from the classic terminal and looks unconnected? And rather basic.

There's a dedicated shuttle bus to Nord, though my wife and I just walked it. I doubt it has won architectural awards, but I remember it as being spacious and sufficiently equipped (plenty of car parking too). Nord is impressive, of course, even though a large part seems to be a supermarket!

 

[Austriantrain]

There's a dedicated shuttle bus to Nord, though my wife and I just walked it. I doubt it has won architectural awards, but I remember it as being spacious and sufficiently equipped (plenty of car parking too).

Isn’t Joaquin Sorolla just temporary anyway and supposed to be replaced by an underground through station?

 

[BahrainLad]

On the flip side, IIRC the Mayor of Lille at the time LGV Nord was being planned was extremely keen for the line to route right through the centre of the city, to much national and local opposition. The economic contribution of the line since opening has proven him correct.

 

[Austriantrain]

On the flip side, IIRC the Mayor of Lille at the time LGV Nord was being planned was extremely keen for the line to route right through the centre of the city, to much national and local opposition. The economic contribution of the line since opening has proven him correct.

Even though, unfortunately, not having the LGV station under Lille Flandres is a strong inconvience für connections, especially from Eurostar.

Was a tunnel station under Flandres ever even discussed?

 

[Ianno87]

Even though, unfortunately, not having the LGV station under Lille Flandres is a strong inconvience für connections, especially from Eurostar.

Was a tunnel station under Flandres ever even discussed?

I think the Lille Europe alignment pretty much punched through an available corridor of derelict land, and stimulated the Euralille development (i.e. deliberate to stimulate development on available land).

 

[Bald Rick]

Even though, unfortunately, not having the LGV station under Lille Flandres is a strong inconvience für connections, especially from Eurostar.

It’s not really though. The VAL serves Lille Europe which provides connections for the Lille metropolitan area, and its only a 5 minute walk from Europe to Flanders if you need to make a regional connection. Hardly a strong inconvenience.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Take a look at an online mapping service of your choice for neighbouring España's Villanueva de Córdoba - Los Pedroches and Antequera - Santa Ana stations.

Antequera - Santa Ana makes a bit more sense now that the Granada-Antequera line is open, as it should eventually become an important interchange. But it's still a complete absurdity to me, and I don't understand why the Madrid-Malaga line wasn't built through the centre of Antequera to begin with. It's a natural interchange between the Madrid-Malaga and Seville-Granada lines, and with a central station in Antequera, they could have created an Andalusian rail hub in Antequera in order to open up the Andalusian interior. It would also have been a massive boost for the Antequera region, as with fast direct trains to Granada/Cordoba/Seville/Malaga, it would have been a hugely popular place to live with the amount of cheap land available for housing.

The good thing about Santa Ana is that it's no problem to park there for a few days if you have a trip to Madrid or elsewhere.

 

[Bald Rick]

Have a look at Google maps. It’s pretty obvious why ‘they’ didn’t drive a high speed line through the middle of a city that’s 1300 years old.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Depending upon the country in question, it is much easier and cheaper (purchase/relocation costs) to build a new line through open country than an urban area. Thus any intermediate station will be remote, unless a junction onto an existing line is feasible.

Commendably, HS1 and HS2 have / will have city centre terminii.

TGV lines differ from my following examples because they are primarily for passenger services, whereas my African examples are primarily for freight services with low levels of passenger service.

In Ethiopia, the stations on their new standard gauge line are remote from the towns they serve, even in Addis Ababa.
In Kenya, the stations on their new standard gauge line, including the two terminii, are a some distance from the centre of the towns they serve, not helped by congested, inadequate local road networks.
In Nigeria, on the new Abuja - Kaduna line, the Abuja (capital city) terminus is on the outskirts despite there being an equally new rail alignment (metro) right into the central business district, whilst at the Kaduna end it is in the middle of the countryside. The newly opened Lagos - Ibadan line has its Lagos terminus in the suburbs, again in a city with serious congestion issues.
In Tanzania, the new Dar-es-Salaam terminus is, quite literally, built on top of the former narrow gauge city terminus but the line skirts the other towns it serves.

 

[Austriantrain]

It’s not really though. The VAL serves Lille Europe which provides connections for the Lille metropolitan area, and its only a 5 minute walk from Europe to Flanders if you need to make a regional connection. Hardly a sting inconvenience.

I think it is, if you are a long-distance passenger with luggage. If TGV Interconnection all ran via Europe... unfortunately many have changed over to Ouigo and start from Flandres (well, there is no inter-ticketing anyway, so probably doesn’t change a lot).

Having two main stations is usually a bad idea, except for the very few capital cities (London, Paris) which are so large that they will fill any train that starts from there anyway, meaning that there is really not a lot of capacity for interconnecting passengers anyway and separate trains must be provided for them (at least in the Paris case).

I am aware of course there might be cost reasons not to centralize everything; However, very often it is money saved for the wrong reasons (eg the Belgians could have chosen not to tunnel under Anvers Central and expand Berchem to make it their main interchange, especially for HS services. Would it have been cheaper? Probably vastly cheaper. Would it have been better? I don’t think so).

Anyway, Lille is what it is...

 

[TravelDream]

Something certainly not unique to France. Train lines avoid urban areas to maintain speed, lower costs, allow faster and easier construction etc.

In China, their new high-speed major city terminals can be far from the city centres they serve.
Guangzhou South is one notable example. They built a new metro line to link it to the centre, but it still takes 45 mins plus to get there. Interestingly, as this is China, a new suburb is being built around the station (https://www.google.com/maps/place/G...3ac2c52a405bb7d0!8m2!3d22.989053!4d113.269698), but still... I've done the Hong Kong - Guangzhou train multiple times and maintain it's quicker, cheaper and easier to take the old train to Guangzhou East and then to the centre than the high-speed one to Guangzhou South.

 

[jamesontheroad]

This may be worthy of its own thread, but in the spirit of the discussion in this thread you might be interested in news today from here in Sweden.

The Transport Administration Trafikverket have delivered the report of an investigation on new high-speed lines to the government. A highlight is the fact that Trafikverket are presenting significant opportunities for cost savings if the high-speed lines do not at existing or new city-centre stations along the route, but new TGV-style parkway stations. One paragraph, roughly translated, reads:

The Swedish Transport Administration presents four alternatives in the report.

"They do not constitute ready-made proposals and we do not advocate any alternative before anything else. The alternatives have been developed to illustrate differences in costs, consequences and effects, and form a basis for our client," says Ali Sadeghi.

The Swedish Transport Administration states that central station locations generally create good accessibility to both housing and labour markets. They contribute to local and regional economic growth. Parkway stations facilitate short travel times for long-distance train passengers.

"All alternatives provide large capacity additions and contribute to regional and national growth. But they also contain a balance between different benefits, for example from a regional and national perspective," says Ali Sadeghi.

The summary is here (HTML, Google Chrome can translate it) as is the report (PDF, not easily translatable): https://www.trafikverket.se/om-oss/...slutredovisar-regeringsuppdrag-nya-stambanor/

 

[MikeR]

Is construction start confirmed for next year? I hadn’t seen news on that. If so, it makes HS2 development seem positively rapid. I was in that part of the world 12 years ago and the ‘LGV - NON’ signs were out everywhere as the inquiry was underway.



It would be all or nothing.

I live in Lot et Garonne, midway between Bordeaux and Agen. There are still many "LGV - NON" signs about.

 

[Austriantrain]

This may be worthy of its own thread, but in the spirit of the discussion in this thread you might be interested in news today from here in Sweden.

The Transport Administration Trafikverket have delivered the report of an investigation on new high-speed lines to the government. A highlight is the fact that Trafikverket are presenting significant opportunities for cost savings if the high-speed lines do not at existing or new city-centre stations along the route, but new TGV-style parkway stations.

It is obviously much cheaper, but it also reduces journey time benefits for those cities served by such an out-of-town station a lot, sometimes down to nothing.

And it greatly reduces connectivity to the rest of public transport.

 

[Bald Rick]

I live in Lot et Garonne, midway between Bordeaux and Agen. There are still many "LGV - NON" signs about.

Probably the same signs I saw in 2010, as that’s where I was!

 

[MikeR]

As I understand things, the Administrative Court rulings about part of the project were eventually overturned but I believe that there are still some legal complications over the Toulouse area. It is difficult to keep up with all the Court and Court of Appeal decisions.