Why are some PlusBus areas so small?

[Welshman]

So it does.
Guilty as charged. I stand corrected. Thank you.

 

[Tester]

So it does.
Guilty as charged. I stand corrected. Thank you.

Easily done - I had the same problem.

For the four areas I mentioned the information is given as @Haywain explains - two different maps depending on where you click. Not a masterpiece of clarity!

Without going through every one, does anyone know of other examples of this?

 

[Haywain]

For the four areas I mentioned the information is given as @Haywain explains - two different maps depending on where you click. Not a masterpiece of clarity!

I agree that it isn't overly clear, but I think it is because with a map of the whole zone it isn't possible to indicate the 'local' attractions and areas on the map of the larger area.

Without going through every one, does anyone know of other examples of this?

As far as I have seen this only applies to four former PTE areas that are involved, namely West and South Yorkshire, Greater Manchester and West Midlands.

 

[duncombec]

A local bus is legally defined as a bus which allows travel within 15 miles, and it roughly corresponds to the radius of Greater London as well, therefore I believe travel up to 15 miles can be considered as local travel.

Strictly speaking, a local bus must stop at least every 15 miles allowing travel between stops; not necessarily "within" 15 miles. However, as mentioned to the poster below, what you consider local or not may depend on the area and the services provided. Only those nearest to me are my "local" shops, but the "local hospital" is 4 miles away, past countless other amenities.

I think it is indeed personal, because as you correctly guessed the city where I spend the majority of my time, I would still describe the Stepping Hill area as "in Manchester". Of course lots of people certainly wouldn't, but that's a big one to be getting into here eh!

Manchester was an easy guess because it shows up as your location! Not to labour the point, but out of friendly understanding, 8 miles on from Stepping Hill is Whaley Bridge (and a further 9 to Buxton). Leaving aside the chance the hospital is the "local" hospital for that part of Derbyshire, would you generally consider those two locations to still be "local", with the green space and county divide between them?

As the major bus operating groups are all signed up to PlusBus, I don't expect that the fares they receive (or don't receive) are seen as an issue of any significance. It is possible that some smaller operators may see the lower farebox income as an obstacle but hey do have the option of not taking part in the scheme - which is why I am not able to use PlusBus on the service that stops outside my front door!

True, but could it be a reason why operators are apparently unwilling to adopt other versions of add-on travel? Showing a little bit of personal ignorance, have there been many changes to the schemes since it was introduced - In terms of areas added, areas withdrawn, boundaries changed? The offering seems quite stable to me over the years.
Since I wrote that draft, though, I've listened to the podcast with Leon Daniels/Roger French linked on the bus side of the forum (https://www.leondaniels.co.uk/podcast/episode/50ae9eef/53-lunch-with-leon-episode-53-roger-french) where they handle plusbus as the last topic, and Roger French states the reason bus operators were willing to accept a lower portion of the fare was because it was only going intended to be used for a limited number of journeys (likely one in each direction), and not necessarily be used as a cheap day ticket. (Of course, the validity is there, but there are few 'regular' users who'll be using it as a zone-wide ticket).

Always the way with any integration of transport. However, it's the only real solution. Currently for visitors to Alnwick's historic town, the overwhelming majority of people will be driving. And of course parking right in the town. Unless the recommendations around integration in both the National Bus Strategy and also the Williams-Shapps Plan for Rail are taken seriously, we won't get anywhere. For the major groups, being part of a large scheme is usually a little bit easier because they can take some risk of potentially lower yields in exchange for higher volumes. And overall at society level, higher volumes on public transport are highly desirable.

A much less ambitious and short term solution, that might work in places like Alnwick specifically, where there's a potentially high volume over a relatively short distance of only a couple of miles, might include turning the commercial aspect on its head: the railway keeps all of the money from the ticket sales, but pays for bus stop upgrades, and gives the bus operators a fee directly based on a negotiation about how much it 'costs' them to provide the railway this connecting service.

Oddly enough, Roger French suggests exactly this in the podcast...

To repeat my comments in my last post, there is definitely much more than can be done to either integrate bus and rail ticketing, or at the very least provide more "through" ticketing to places of interest off the rail network (just as much as there could be places on the rail and bus network with places of interest... all too often you have to use some random voucher in some random leaflet that may or may not be available at the station, and may or may not still be in date) in a manner that actually attracts people to use it. Does "Matlock PlusBus" have the same effect on the random car-driving holidaymaker than "Matlock and bus to Chatsworth House", nicely followed up with "Ah, you came by bus, sir, we deduct the cost of the bus add on from your entry fee"?

I often get a sense here that unless you throw everything out of the window and start afresh with a system based on <insert European country of choice> it's all rubbish, whereas incremental changes can have just as great an effect.

But to sum up, no, some Plusbus areas are not too small, they match the purpose of the product in the area in question, and it's simply not possible to have a ticket to everywhere, from everywhere. Not even <insert European country of choice> matches that a lot of the time!

 

[RT4038]

As the major bus operating groups are all signed up to PlusBus, I don't expect that the fares they receive (or don't receive) are seen as an issue of any significance. It is possible that some smaller operators may see the lower farebox income as an obstacle but hey do have the option of not taking part in the scheme - which is why I am not able to use PlusBus on the service that stops outside my front door!

They will do if it becomes anything but a very small niche product.

 

[Haywain]

They will do if it becomes anything but a very small niche product.

I've seen the sales figures in the past, and they have suggested that there is no danger of that happening.

 

[Starmill]

Manchester was an easy guess because it shows up as your location! Not to labour the point, but out of friendly understanding, 8 miles on from Stepping Hill is Whaley Bridge (and a further 9 to Buxton). Leaving aside the chance the hospital is the "local" hospital for that part of Derbyshire, would you generally consider those two locations to still be "local", with the green space and county divide between them?

I think that I would and that is probably where we're finding a distinction. We should probably have a separate thread to discuss how far the word local can apply to in different contexts to discuss further however.

 

[RT4038]

I've seen the sales figures in the past, and they have suggested that there is no danger of that happening.

Quite! But it ticks the box of 'Integrated Fares'.

 

[Starmill]

Oddly enough, Roger French suggests exactly this in the podcast...

That is interesting. I might have to listen to it in full.

 

[Haywain]

Quite! But it ticks the box of 'Integrated Fares'.

I think the biggest problem is that most people go a strange colour when it is suggested they board a bus, and head for either their own car or for a taxi. Bus travel has a curiously downmarket reputation in this country and I don't see any reason why that should change.

 

[paul1609]

Easily done - I had the same problem.

For the four areas I mentioned the information is given as @Haywain explains - two different maps depending on where you click. Not a masterpiece of clarity!

Without going through every one, does anyone know of other examples of this?

Not quite but a Seaford or Newhaven PlusBus also entitles you to travel in the Brighton & Hove PlusBus area which also includes Newhaven & Seaford.

 

[Starmill]

I think the biggest problem is that most people go a strange colour when it is suggested they board a bus, and head for either their own car or for a taxi. Bus travel has a curiously downmarket reputation in this country and I don't see any reason why that should change.

It is just so common, and in some areas seems to persist despite the money that's been spent on changing the image (see the 'fancy buses' on routes like Transdev Coastliner and X43 Manchester - Burnley, or the Go North East XLines network, to give just a few examples).

I bet Alnmouth station has an awfully high proportion of people catching the train arrive by taxi.

 

[Haywain]

Not quite but a Seaford or Newhaven PlusBus also entitles you to travel in the Brighton & Hove PlusBus area which also includes Newhaven & Seaford.

There are many cases of different webpages for different interchanges within the same PlusBus area where all use the same map.

 

[Non Multi]

That is interesting. I might have to listen to it in full.

Listened to it yesterday evening, well worth your time. It's discussed at the end of the podcast if you just want to listen to that bit.

 

[Dr Day]

Integrated ticketing and integrated fares are subtly different things. We can have the former without necessarily needing the latter.

 

[Class800]

Integrated ticketing and integrated fares are subtly different things. We can have the former without necessarily needing the latter.

Could you explain? As these are considered largely synonymous by many people

 

[Dr Day]

I'll have a go. An integrated ticket is a token, say a single piece of cardboard that you can use for say a train journey plus a bus journey, but the fare paid can simply be the sum of the fare of each individual mode. An integrated fare is a fare covering your travel on both legs, generally less than the sum of the individual components.

The ticketing media is something different again....

 

[RT4038]

I'll have a go. An integrated ticket is a token, say a single piece of cardboard that you can use for say a train journey plus a bus journey, but the fare paid can simply be the sum of the fare of each individual mode. An integrated fare is a fare covering your travel on both legs, generally less than the sum of the individual components.

The ticketing media is something different again....

An integrated fare is also likely to be train and bus fares for journeys between similar (in 'close by') geographic points being the same price, and agnostic as to which modal route is taken.

 

[plugwash]

And of course, in Greater London, there's no Plusbus.

Indeed, but travelcards (inboundry and outboundary) and oyster/contactless cover much of the same role.

What's worse is that up here in GM there is no plusbus for local journeys, and the local bus+train day ticket is offpeak only.

 

[Starmill]

Indeed, but travelcards (inboundry and outboundary) and oyster/contactless cover much of the same role.

What's worse is that up here in GM there is no plusbus for local journeys, and the local bus+train day ticket is offpeak only.

It is especially crackers that there's no daily ticket to cover a bus journey and a peak time train journey yes, as that's precisely what some people might want to do. Appalling really.

 

[miklcct]

It is especially crackers that there's no daily ticket to cover a bus journey and a peak time train journey yes, as that's precisely what some people might want to do. Appalling really.

There isn't a problem not having a daily ticket if all single fares are affordable for regular commuters doing 5 days per week (single-fare pricing). In fact my ideal is all fares should be single fares charged by leg, without any form of capping or period tickets at all.

 

[Deerfold]

There isn't a problem not having a daily ticket if all single fares are affordable for regular commuters doing 5 days per week (single-fare pricing). In fact my ideal is all fares should be single fares charged by leg, without any form of capping or period tickets at all.

Why is that your ideal?

 

[Starmill]

There isn't a problem not having a daily ticket if all single fares are affordable for regular commuters doing 5 days per week (single-fare pricing). In fact my ideal is all fares should be single fares charged by leg, without any form of capping or period tickets at all.

That's a very, very long way indeed from the situation as it exists today.