Why can't Optare sell buses?

[Robertj21a]

There's got to be some cash in the factory equiptment, ADL / Plaxton / whoever picks the sellable products and ditches the rest of the Optare stuff.

Why would they bother ?

 

[Bwsbro]

A local company to me has moved from Optare to ADL products. The final nail in the coffin to the owner was continued delays to planned delivery dates, alongside vehicles not matching to the customers specification.

One of the major issues surrounding the Metrodecker, is that the refusal of Optare to offer a low height version which most operators outside London buy.

They also seem to have an issue in getting London operators to be interested in their products. When launched the Metrocity was promoted as the New Bus for London. Over 55 vehicles can be traced as new to Welsh Operators, with the largest batch of 312 vehicles since 2015 exported to New Zealand.

 

[37114]

ADL at one point tried to buy Optare but quickly back tracked when Ashok Leyland refused to sell their shares. I recall it was overtly mentioned on the ADL website at the time.

 

[MotCO]

Agreed. ADL are proposing workforce reductions trying to coax UK Govt into placing the orders they have hinted they would to support the industry. I don't see what ADL could possibly gain from purchasing Optare.

The only thing Optare has which ADL doesn't is a domesticly-sourced electric vehicle (although I don't know where Optare gets its batteries from). (ADL sources its battery chassis from BYD in China.) If there was any political fall-out between the UK and China (e.g. Huawei, source of Covid etc), then ADL may want to look for a domestic producer, e.g. Optare.

 

[Cesarcollie]

The only thing Optare has which ADL doesn't is a domesticly-sourced electric vehicle (although I don't know where Optare gets its batteries from). (ADL sources its battery chassis from BYD in China.) If there was any political fall-out between the UK and China (e.g. Huawei, source of Covid etc), then ADL may want to look for a domestic producer, e.g. Optare.

But pretty much all battery technology is Chinese......

 

[MotCO]

But pretty much all battery technology is Chinese......

Even Optare's?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Why would they bother ?

Exactly. To pay for one ageing design and some secondhand tooling that you flog off for less than it costs to buy it? Er no!

 

[randyrippley]

I think you're all missing the point over Optare's survival. Ashok Leyland purchased it to give themselves a resource from which they could transfer the design and engineering technology to India in an attempt to drag their coachbuilding skills into the 20th century. What they missed was the irrelevance of lightweight British designs to Indian roads.........and that everyone else was in the 21st century.
However Ashok obvously feel they've got something still to gain by keeping the site open - are they using it as a design centre for Indian builds? Once the technology transfer (and associated staff training) in India is complete its my belief Optare will close and the production equipment shipped to India. They've no interest in the UK market

 

[cnjb8]

Where to start with Optare...
I think they have been totally decimated by ADL, if they want to compete, they must update their product line.
Apparently, their EV range is too short compared to BYD and Yutong. The Versa cab is very cramped. The MetroDecker has issues with sight with the pillars etc. Also, I heard that the Solo isn't made shorter then 8.9m, effectively giving those lengths to Mellor. There must be so many more issues

 

[ClydeCoaster]

ADL at one point tried to buy Optare but quickly back tracked when Ashok Leyland refused to sell their shares. I recall it was overtly mentioned on the ADL website at the time.

Yep, back in 2011, so at one point they were definitely interested in taking them out.

ADL ends interest in Optare takeover

Bus maker Alexander Dennis (ADL) has ended its brief skirmish with India’s Ashok Leyland for control of rival firm Optare. ADL, which is backed by Stagecoach founder and chief executive Sir Brian Souter, walked away [...]

cbwmagazine.com

Now, however, with the MMC range dominating the market, I can't see them interested at all in, what everyone has correctly pointed out, an ageing product line. The Solo is 21 years old, the Versa 15 years old, the Metrocity is basically a Versa and the Metrodecker lingered about in prototype form for an alarming period of time... From the company that such stylish products such as the Delta and Spectra.

ADL and Wright cover everything to 30 seats, and Mellor's Strata coming in 2 different lengths has become very popular sub-30 seats. Shuttle Buses operate Stratas on my local route in Ayrshire (and McGills substitute Strata for Citaros in the evening); they're well put together and feel surprisingly big bus like.

As for ADL not having a domestic EV product, their parent NFI has experience in producing their own EVs for North America so I think its only a matter of time before its launched as an ADL product here.

 

[CBlue]

A drinking buddy works as a fitter for one of the larger groups. He reckoned the Solos they had were some of the worst vehicles he had ever worked on, with electrical issues galore even at six months old that were a total nightmare to diagnose and fix.

 

[Surreyman]

i don't work in the industry, have next to no technical knowledge but I do wonder why there are so many older Solos still in service?

 

[CBlue]

I think in some cases it's simply a lack of alternatives.

Older 2nd hand Solos aren't expensive and the shorter ones can more or less go wherever Merc minibuses could.

 

[Jordan Adam]

i don't work in the industry, have next to no technical knowledge but I do wonder why there are so many older Solos still in service?

The Merc/Allisons running gear is quite solid. Merc Solos are like 709Ds in that sense, shoddily put together but will go on forever.

 

[MotCO]

Did Optare miss a trick by not winning the Irish contract which went to ADL when Wright was in difficulties? That would have been a massive boost for them and would have enabled them to enter the mass market.

 

[markymark2000]

I think in some cases it's simply a lack of alternatives.

Older 2nd hand Solos aren't expensive and the shorter ones can more or less go wherever Merc minibuses could.

I wouldn't say some, I would say in most cases, there is a lack of alternative. Look at the routes which Solos run on. Most of them don't carry many passengers (else bigger buses would be put on) or make much money. The Solo is also handy for areas which are quite tight with it having the wheel forward configuration and having the slimline.
Right now for small buses (excepting Optare) you have 8.9m E200MMC, Streetlite or Mellors.
Enviro 200MMCs can be expensive so it would take companies a while to make the vehicles pay for themselves. E200s are a bit wider and don't offer any WF config.
Streetlites are generally not liked and people have loyalties elsewhere.
Mellors don't provide as good passenger comfort as it's a minibus chassis which hits every single speed bump.

These 3 show that there is no real alternative. Solos are still king in many cases because of how reliable they generally are and the relatively low cost of maintenance for them. IF Optate sorted themselves out, I think they would have a lot more orders but as multiple people have said, their inability to create and stick to a delivery schedule has put people off.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Surely one of the biggest mistakes was wasting all that money developing the Metrocity and Metrodecker when they could've been updating the Solo? Or at least when the Metrocity came out they could've dropped the Versa. The Solo, Versa and Metrocity are actually the exact same except with different front ends, there's far too much overlap in their product offering.

 

[paulprentice]

Such a shame that they are doing so badly, for a manufacturer that had such a reputation for stylish and refined products, particularly during the 1990s and early 2000s. The Spectra, Delta and Solo must rate among the finest UK-built buses of all time at least from a passenger point of view and I dare say an operator’s.

 

[cnjb8]

Did Optare miss a trick by not winning the Irish contract which went to ADL when Wright was in difficulties? That would have been a massive boost for them and would have enabled them to enter the mass market.

They can't as they have no support network in Ireland which is required.

 

[MotCO]

They can't as they have no support network in Ireland which is required.

But nor did ADL to any great extent!

 

[cnjb8]

But nor did ADL to any great extent!

Yes you're right! Believe they are using a contractor

 

[Arriva Fan]

Optare managed to build 33 Solos relatively quickly for LibertyBus to take over Jerseys Bus Network back in, I think, 2012.

LibertyBus operate 35 Solos, 2 more arrived a couple of years ago to replace Fiat Ducato/Bluebird Orions. They also have some Dennis Dart Plaxton Pointers/Caetona Nimbus in Service, so I imagine if HCT win the next Jersey Tender they would possibly replace some remaining Darts with more Solos, which could be another relatively large order for Optare.

Interestingly LibertyBus chose Alexander Dennis Enviro400s for their Double Deckers. I'd have thought they'd have standardised on Optare Products, was the MetroDecker not yet available in 2012? They have since trialled the Electric MetroDecker.

 

[cnjb8]

Optare managed to build 33 Solos relatively quickly for LibertyBus to take over Jerseys Bus Network back in, I think, 2012.

LibertyBus operate 35 Solos, 2 more arrived a couple of years ago to replace Fiat Ducato/Bluebird Orions. They also have some Dennis Dart Plaxton Pointers/Caetona Nimbus in Service, so I imagine if HCT win the next Jersey Tender they would possibly replace some remaining Darts with more Solos, which could be another relatively large order for Optare.

Interestingly LibertyBus chose Alexander Dennis Enviro400s for their Double Deckers. I'd have thought they'd have standardised on Optare Products, was the MetroDecker not yet available in 2012? They have since trialled the Electric MetroDecker.

But that was 2012, not now.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

But that was 2012, not now.

Indeed. Lead times are now 12 months and over.

Odd considering looking at Bus Lists On The Web, less than 100 Solos have been built in 2 years!

 

[awsnews]

Indeed. Lead times are now 12 months and over.

Odd considering looking at Bus Lists On The Web, less than 100 Solos have been built in 2 years!

There have been a number built for export which don't appear on the blotw lists, there was an order for 94 Solos for Dubai for which were in production last year and there was over a hundred vehicles for New Zealand in 2018/19 as well.

 

[randyrippley]

Do they still make kits for overseas assembly?

 

[upasalmon]

There have been a number built for export which don't appear on the blotw lists, there was an order for 94 Solos for Dubai for which were in production last year and there was over a hundred vehicles for New Zealand in 2018/19 as well.

Dubai and New Zealand are worryingly closer to India than the UK .

 

[Arriva Fan]

But that was 2012, not now.

Exactly, so why can't it be done now? Why can't the same product in the same factory be built as it was in 2012?

Have Optare cut work force? Have experienced staff had enough and left?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

There have been a number built for export which don't appear on the blotw lists, there was an order for 94 Solos for Dubai for which were in production last year and there was over a hundred vehicles for New Zealand in 2018/19 as well.

Ah right - I knew there were some for export but assumed they were in the built/not traced status. How does that work with serial numbers though??

That aside, even for the domestic market, it's quite a low number of vehicles. Aside from a couple of batches for First, the dearth of new Solos for the major groups is also quite noticeable.

 

[Tetchytyke]

the dearth of new Solos for the major groups is also quite noticeable.

Go have plenty of Solo SRs in the north east, though they are a few years old now, but I do know what you mean.

Stagecoach won't touch Optare after Preston Bus, IIRC, and First don't run routes needing minibuses now.

That said, you don't see many small buses in the major groups anymore, you get the cheap breadvans (Strata, Sprinter, etc.) or you get the E200 MMC. I suppose the big groups don't tend to run the low-margin suburban and rural routes that are the Solo's bread and butter. You don't see many of the short Streetlite WFs either.

I do wonder what it's all about with Optare though. I wonder if it's a vicious circle, with few/no orders they can't discount in the same way ADL and Wright can, and without the discounts they'll just lose business on price to ADL and Wright. You're not going to buy a Metrodecker if an E400MMC is cheaper. I know I wouldn't!