Why can't Optare sell buses?

[GusB]

When the Solo was introduced, I suppose it was a bit of a hero product that occupied a gap in the market at the time; that for a small bus with a low-floor. The van-derived minibuses relied on having tail-lifts for accessibility, all fine for community transport/dial-a-bus operations, but not so handy for scheduled services at a time when operators were moving towards low-floors in larger vehicles. When Stagecoach replaced Mercedes 709Ds on rural routes around here with Solos, they were a world apart.

They've since lost that unique spot with the introduction of the Streetlite and the new generation of van-derived minibuses. Incidentally, I was having a peek at Mellor's website the other day, and it would appear that they actually build the chassis for the Strata, so it's not strictly a "breadvan" - perhaps a topic for another thread, though.

It's such a pity that Optare seems to have taken its eye off the ball in recent times.

 

[CN04NRJ]

i don't work in the industry, have next to no technical knowledge but I do wonder why there are so many older Solos still in service?

Cheap and cheerful. It speaks volumes that the older Mercedes engined examples have far outlived many newer MAN and Cummins engined examples (especially MAN!).

 

[cnjb8]

Exactly, so why can't it be done now? Why can't the same product in the same factory be built as it was in 2012?

Have Optare cut work force? Have experienced staff had enough and left?

Hard to say. You'd think that the vastly reduced production line would allow them to build buses quicker, but they have that vastly reduced production line because they can't build quick enough.

 

[buses7675]

Stagecoach won't touch Optare after Preston Bus, IIRC, and First don't run routes needing minibuses now.

What happened between Stagecoach and Optare regarding Preston bus?

 

[37114]

Hard to say. You'd think that the vastly reduced production line would allow them to build buses quicker, but they have that vastly reduced production line because they can't build quick enough.

I think one thing that is a problem will be minimum order quantities from suppliers. Bearing in mind Optare like lots of manufacturers buy in items, the supplier will have agreed trade terms with Optare based on set volumes. If say the agreed MOQ is 20 items then Optare have 2 options:
-Extend the lead time until you get enough customer orders to meet suppliers MOQ
Or
- Order less but pay a higher price.

I seem to recall Wright's administration affected Optare as well due to suppliers relying on both companies volumes.

 

[Swanny200]

Optare were ahead of their time quite a few times, the CityPacer, StarRider, MetroRider for a start, looking at them, you couldn't really tell that they were derived from vans, the 'Riders with some fleets lasting longer than the Merc breadvans that were bodied by the likes of Reeve Burgess, the Delta and Spectra saw sterling service with the likes of Reading Buses and Brighton and Hove.

The Solo was really forward thinking, the only option for Mercedes other than a solo for that size of bus was a Vario and at the time, everyone was looking towards low floor midi buses, had there been a low floor Vario then Optare would have had competition, issue was Optare never evolved from the Solo.

The Rapta had it been cheaper and made production could have been a hit too.

 

[CN04NRJ]

Optare were ahead of their time quite a few times, the CityPacer, StarRider, MetroRider for a start, looking at them, you couldn't really tell that they were derived from vans, the 'Riders with some fleets lasting longer than the Merc breadvans that were bodied by the likes of Reeve Burgess, the Delta and Spectra saw sterling service with the likes of Reading Buses and Brighton and Hove.

The Solo was really forward thinking, the only option for Mercedes other than a solo for that size of bus was a Vario and at the time, everyone was looking towards low floor midi buses, had there been a low floor Vario then Optare would have had competition, issue was Optare never evolved from the Solo.

The Rapta had it been cheaper and made production could have been a hit too.

The extremely poor quality of the Metrorider (mainly corrosion) is what put Cardiff Bus off future Optare orders - along with the abysmal first generation Excel. I believe the second generation one was better but by then the damage was done. They wouldn't even accept demonstrators when looking to renew their fleet 2012-onwards.

 

[CBlue]

The Citypacer wasn't exactly fantastic either. Putting a very heavy body onto a VW van chassis that couldn't cope with the weight never seemed like a good idea.

 

[Tetchytyke]

What happened between Stagecoach and Optare regarding Preston bus?

The rumour- and it was just a rumour- was that Optare accidentally tipped off Preston Bus what Stagecoach were planning, as Stagecoach bought a lot of Solos for the assault on Preston. And that it didn't go down well.

It could well be idle tittle-tattle, but you don't see Stagecoach ordering much from Optare these days.

The extremely poor quality of the Metrorider (mainly corrosion) is what put Cardiff Bus off future Optare orders - along with the abysmal first generation Excel

The first gen Excel was awful, but the Optare MetroRider always seemed to be bomb proof, Arriva had loads and ran them into the ground. The older original MCW MetroRiders were junk, though that was before MCW went bust and Optare took over the design.

 

[randyrippley]

The Citypacer wasn't exactly fantastic either. Putting a very heavy body onto a VW van chassis that couldn't cope with the weight never seemed like a good idea.

LCT had six of them, one with a manual gearbox, the rest automatic. The manual one went through new clutches every month and several gearboxes, allegedly due to drivers insistence on starting in second gear

 

[Eyersey468]

Agree about the first generation Excel being awful, some of ours barely lasted 5 years before being sold as they were so unreliable. I'm told bits were falling off them within days of them entering service. Apparently some operators said they would never buy Optare again based on experience with Excel 1

 

[MotCO]

LCT had six of them, one with a manual gearbox, the rest automatic. The manual one went through new clutches every month and several gearboxes, allegedly due to drivers insistence on starting in second gear

The City Pacer was based on VW LT chasssis - I don't recall LT vans' clutches having to be replaced every month!

 

[CBlue]

The City Pacer was based on VW LT chasssis - I don't recall LT vans' clutches having to be replaced every month!

Admittedly the van normally didn't have to lug a load of heavy coachwork around!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The City Pacer was based on VW LT chasssis - I don't recall LT vans' clutches having to be replaced every month!

That's because they weren't be used to the same intensity. My local firm had Merc 608s that were similarly hard worked and got through clutches and brake pads because they simply worked harder and for longer.

Agree about the first generation Excel being awful, some of ours barely lasted 5 years before being sold as they were so unreliable. I'm told bits were falling off them within days of them entering service. Apparently some operators said they would never buy Optare again based on experience with Excel 1

Correct, TrentBarton had a terrible time with their Mk1 Excels and I think a few other firms gave up on the unequal battle; IIRC, Go North East flogged theirs after about 6 years, Cardiff Bus after 2 or 3!

The Optare Vecta was similarly troublesome.

 

[P86DLR]

I think the other Bus Manufacturers like Alexander Dennis have a much higher Impact in Cities as Double Deck Buses are common and useful there. But smaller Buses like the Optare Solo can be WAY more useful in the countryside. Small roads, sharp curves and a (mostly) low amount of Passengers. Big but empty Buses arent that nice for Bus Operators. I think Optare cant sell much buses when it comes to Cities like London or Birmingham but they can have much Success in the Countryside. I saw a lot of Optare Solo Buses on my Visit to Braemar (Highland Games) in the Scottish Highlands Area.

 

[90019]

The manual one went through new clutches every month and several gearboxes, allegedly due to drivers insistence on starting in second gear

I wonder if some of that was due to the first gen LT having a dogleg gearbox.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It's a shame the mark one Excel was so unreliable, because compared to the other first-gen low floor buses it was a nice passenger experience. It knocked spots off the likes of the DAF Plaxton Prestige (a vile bus) and even the Pointer Dart.

 

[cnjb8]

That's because they weren't be used to the same intensity. My local firm had Merc 608s that were similarly hard worked and got through clutches and brake pads because they simply worked harder and for longer.



Correct, TrentBarton had a terrible time with their Mk1 Excels and I think a few other firms gave up on the unequal battle; IIRC, Go North East flogged theirs after about 6 years, Cardiff Bus after 2 or 3!

The Optare Vecta was similarly troublesome.

And yet TrentBarton went on to purchase the Tempo and Tempo SRs which to put a long story short, were a disaster for them

 

[M803UYA]

It's not a rumour and in fact is a matter of public record. It was mentioned in Stagecoach's Competition Commission submissions (Page 9) as part of the 2009 investigation that Optare leaked the destination of a batch of Solos then in build (April 2007) to Preston Bus. This was in breach of the supply contract and Stagecoach took a very dim view of it, which was reflected in the lack of subsequent orders.

The rumour- and it was just a rumour- was that Optare accidentally tipped off Preston Bus what Stagecoach were planning, as Stagecoach bought a lot of Solos for the assault on Preston. And that it didn't go down well.

 

[randyrippley]

I wonder if some of that was due to the first gen LT having a dogleg gearbox.

Charitably it was said to be more a case of drivers being used to starting real buses in second and refusing to change habits. Uncharitably it was said that some deliberately tried to wreck it as they didn't like clutches, being used to driving Atlanteans and Leopards with pneumocyclic gearboxes.
Dunno what the real truth was, but it certainly was unpopular with the drivers

 

[Tetchytyke]

It's not a rumour and in fact is a matter of public record.

Thank you for that, I knew I'd seen it but couldn't remember how public it was.

I've also just seen a load of photos of quite new Stagecoach Solo SRs running Covid duplicates in London, so clearly time is a healer!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Thank you for that, I knew I'd seen it but couldn't remember how public it was.

I've also just seen a load of photos of quite new Stagecoach Solo SRs running Covid duplicates in London, so clearly time is a healer!

They didn’t have much of a break; Stagecoach Cymru and East did get them in 2009.

 

[carlberry]

It's not a rumour and in fact is a matter of public record. It was mentioned in Stagecoach's Competition Commission submissions (Page 9) as part of the 2009 investigation that Optare leaked the destination of a batch of Solos then in build (April 2007) to Preston Bus. This was in breach of the supply contract and Stagecoach took a very dim view of it, which was reflected in the lack of subsequent orders.

When did the lack of subsequent orders happen? Stagecoach appear to have bought Solos in 2008,2009,2010,2012,2013 and 2015 at least.