Why do long distance XC trains call at Tamworth or Burton?

[Scott M]

I regularly commute with XC between Birmingham and Newcastle and, on the faster via Doncaster service, it calls at Derby, Sheffield, Doncaster, York, Darlington, Durham and Newcastle. However sometimes it will add in minor stops such as Tamworth, Burton-on-Trent and Chesterfield. Why does it call at these stations? I would have thought it would be a long-distance express train which only stops at major stations, and stations such as those would be better served by local commuter services?

 

[Starmill]

I regularly commute with XC between Birmingham and Newcastle and, on the faster via Doncaster service, it calls at Derby, Sheffield, Doncaster, York, Darlington, Durham and Newcastle. However sometimes it will add in minor stops such as Tamworth, Burton-on-Trent and Chesterfield. Why does it call at these stations? I would have thought it would be a long-distance express train which only stops at major stations, and stations such as those would be better served by local commuter services?

If CrossCountry did not serve Tamworth and Burton-upon-Trent to / from Birmingham there would be no service at all. They have to be served somehow? There used to be a 5th service per hour on that route that called at those stations, it was Matlock to Birmingham if I remember correctly and it did not last at all long.

There is a modicum of long-distance demand from Chesterfield. It is very rare for such a train to call at Chesterfield though? Only a couple early morning and the 1830 and 2030 from Birmingham surely.

An additional evening peak service does run to serve these stations. 1739 Birmingham New Street to Derby.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Tamworth is an interchange with the WCML and as such it makes sense to stop there. The town itself may not justify it, but neither does Crewe as a town justify what it gets - it's primarily an interchange.

 

[3141]

I regularly commute with XC between Birmingham and Newcastle and, on the faster via Doncaster service, it calls at Derby, Sheffield, Doncaster, York, Darlington, Durham and Newcastle. However sometimes it will add in minor stops such as Tamworth, Burton-on-Trent and Chesterfield. Why does it call at these stations? I would have thought it would be a long-distance express train which only stops at major stations, and stations such as those would be better served by local commuter services?

That's the major contradiction within the Cross Country concept. Sometimes even the major stations are not far apart, for example Coventry, Birmingham and Wolverhampton, and considerable local traffic joins an XC train at one and gets off at the next. Changing that by cutting out one or more of those stops would create serious difficulties for some passengers. There would have to be either more frequent services, some of which really were express with fewer stops, or longer trains. Or both.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's the major contradiction within the Cross Country concept. Sometimes even the major stations are not far apart, for example Coventry, Birmingham and Wolverhampton, and considerable local traffic joins an XC train at one and gets off at the next. Changing that by cutting out one or more of those stops would create serious difficulties for some passengers. There would have to be either more frequent services, some of which really were express with fewer stops, or longer trains. Or both.

Coventry, Brum and Wolves make sense because they are all major interchanges in a conurbation. It's no different from Manchester and Stockport, or over in Germany the ICEs all doing Hamburg Altona, Dammtor and Hbf.

 

[tbtc]

I regularly commute with XC between Birmingham and Newcastle and, on the faster via Doncaster service, it calls at Derby, Sheffield, Doncaster, York, Darlington, Durham and Newcastle. However sometimes it will add in minor stops such as Tamworth, Burton-on-Trent and Chesterfield. Why does it call at these stations? I would have thought it would be a long-distance express train which only stops at major stations, and stations such as those would be better served by local commuter services?

It's a long distance train but it's also the shorter distance of the two XC services on that corridor (compared to the hourly Plymouth - Edinburgh, which can serve Penzance/ Glasgow/ Aberdeen too at times), so makes sense to put these stops into the "Newcastle via Doncaster" service.

But what "local commuter services"? Chesterfield has no "local" trains. Before the hourly Northern service from Nottingham to Leeds was introduced (and that's not a "local" service), the termini for services through Chesterfield in a typical hour were Edinburgh/ Newcastle/ Liverpool/ Plymouth/ Reading/ Norwich and Sheffield, so if XC stop serving it then there's no space for "local" trains to pick up the slack. We've had this in the past where XC ended up having to provide the local service at Dronfield, Chester le Street etc in the absence of local trains on those routes - same could be said of places like Alnmouth I guess.

I know that some like to aspire to continental models etc etc but the UK network doesn't have the simple separation of "InterCity", "Provincial"/ "Metro" services - even in BR days there were contradictions in what was an InterCity service - if you were designing the network from scratch then you might design a "cross country" network that didn't stop at smaller stations but we are where we are and any removal of such stops would leave gaps (that no other TOC is going to fill).

Also worth pointing out that EMT stop pretty much all of their London services at Chesterfield, so it's not a minor station - if it gets most London services stopping there but not all XC ones then there's maybe an argument that more XC trains should stop there.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Tamworth and Burton get a 2ph XC semi-fast service from Nottingham to Birmingham/Cardiff.
So they are not devoid of service if Bristol/Newcastle services don't call.

 

[The Planner]

Even those are busy, not just an issue of solving the long distance stock.

 

[43055]

Tamworth and Burton get a 2ph XC semi-fast service from Nottingham to Birmingham/Cardiff.
So they are not devoid of service if Bristol/Newcastle services don't call.

Only 3 southbound morning reading services stop and a rough 2 hourly between Burton and Tamworth on the Plymouth. I have used these services quite a lot to and from Birmingham and Bristol for work from Burton, I have even used Willington as well. The long distance services prove to be very valuable for stopping during the peaks as the passenger numbers demand it hence a HST followed by a 4 car 170 from Derby at around 7.30 towards Birmingham (both are full on arrival at Birmingham) and the additional service from Birmingham in the evening.

These stops also don't effect the timetables as both have waiting time at Birmingham or Derby/Sheffield for paths so by having them stop helps to reduce pressure on the 170 services while not effecting the overall timetable.

 

[Starmill]

Tamworth is an interchange with the WCML and as such it makes sense to stop there. The town itself may not justify it, but neither does Crewe as a town justify what it gets - it's primarily an interchange.

Connections at Tamworth are frequently absolutely awful. In all but a tiny number of cases they're also onto a relatively slow train. As a result, there are very few long-distance journeys where there's an optimal interchange at Tamworth.

 

[scrapy]

Tamworth and Burton get a 2ph XC semi-fast service from Nottingham to Birmingham/Cardiff.
So they are not devoid of service if Bristol/Newcastle services don't call.

Surely there is more justification for missing Durham. It's smaller than both Burton and Tamworth by population, it's not an interchange station and it has more alternative services already calling

 

[yorkie]

Surely there is more justification for missing Durham. It's smaller than both Burton and Tamworth by population, it's not an interchange station and it has more alternative services already calling

If you wish to make this proposal, the best place would be Speculative Ideas. Feel free to post details of why you think this would be a good idea and what it would achieve. Note that Durham is used by around 2.5 million passengers per year; which is several hundred thousand more than Burton and Tamworth combined.

 

[MontyP]

Surely there is more justification for missing Durham. It's smaller than both Burton and Tamworth by population, it's not an interchange station and it has more alternative services already calling

Durham has a university and students generate a lot of passenger traffic.

I am intrigued by the idea of Tamworth as an interchange - I am struggling to think of any major flows that would be best served by this route, particularly as the only WCML trains that stop at Tamworth are the slow LNW services.

 

[yorkie]

Durham has a university and students generate a lot of passenger traffic.

I am intrigued by the idea of Tamworth as an interchange - I am struggling to think of any major flows that would be best served by this route, particularly as the only WCML trains that stop at Tamworth are the slow LNW services.

Nottingham & Derby (and north of) to Rugby, Northampton & Milton Keynes.

Passengers are encouraged to do this even for Sheffield to London (the cheapest walk-up fares are valid on trains operated by XC and WMT only)

 

[Llandudno]

It's a long distance train but it's also the shorter distance of the two XC services on that corridor (compared to the hourly Plymouth - Edinburgh, which can serve Penzance/ Glasgow/ Aberdeen too at times), so makes sense to put these stops into the "Newcastle via Doncaster" service.

But what "local commuter services"? Chesterfield has no "local" trains. Before the hourly Northern service from Nottingham to Leeds was introduced (and that's not a "local" service), the termini for services through Chesterfield in a typical hour were Edinburgh/ Newcastle/ Liverpool/ Plymouth/ Reading/ Norwich and Sheffield, so if XC stop serving it then there's no space for "local" trains to pick up the slack. We've had this in the past where XC ended up having to provide the local service at Dronfield, Chester le Street etc in the absence of local trains on those routes - same could be said of places like Alnmouth I guess.

I know that some like to aspire to continental models etc etc but the UK network doesn't have the simple separation of "InterCity", "Provincial"/ "Metro" services - even in BR days there were contradictions in what was an InterCity service - if you were designing the network from scratch then you might design a "cross country" network that didn't stop at smaller stations but we are where we are and any removal of such stops would leave gaps (that no other TOC is going to fill).

Also worth pointing out that EMT stop pretty much all of their London services at Chesterfield, so it's not a minor station - if it gets most London services stopping there but not all XC ones then there's maybe an argument that more XC trains should stop there.

Perhaps the reason why so many long distance trains stop at Chesterfield is the fact that almost 2 million passengers per annum use the station, not bad for a town of 100,000 population. It does, of course serve as a railhead for Clay Cross, Bolsover, parts of the Peak District and South Sheffield

 

[The_Train]

particularly as the only WCML trains that stop at Tamworth are the slow LNW services.

That's not strictly true as Virgin do stop some of their West Coast services at Tamworth in the morning and evening

 

[mmh]

Connections at Tamworth are frequently absolutely awful. In all but a tiny number of cases they're also onto a relatively slow train. As a result, there are very few long-distance journeys where there's an optimal interchange at Tamworth.

But there are thousands of long distance journeys from Tamworth where starting there is optimal.

 

[tbtc]

Perhaps the reason why so many long distance trains stop at Chesterfield is the fact that almost 2 million passengers per annum use the station, not bad for a town of 100,000 population. It does, of course serve as a railhead for Clay Cross, Bolsover, parts of the Peak District and South Sheffield

Fair point - it's a town that punches above its weight in railway terms despite not being a place you'd interchange or a place with a large University/sports team (to act as a draw for people to travel *to* it). I know a few people in/around Sheffield who use Chesterfield as their default station for journeys south.

There's also the point that (to echo @43055 ) that XC have some awkward waits as they swap from one line onto another (e.g. from Derby to Sheffield they fit around EMT services but from Sheffield to Leeds/ Doncaster they mainly fit around Northern services), so there can be some long dwells - the Reading - Newcastle services can wait ten minutes or more at Derby northbound and then a further five minutes at Sheffield even when they stop at Chesterfield so skipping Chesterfield might just mean even longer dwells).

If you were building the railways from scratch today (following the "perfect" Swiss/ German/ Dutch model, depending on your preference), maybe there'd be a few local trains around Chesterfield, stations at places like Clay Cross, regular services from Belper to Yorkshire, a commuter service at Dronfield, platforms on the MML at Dore... and therefore no need for the XC services to stop anywhere between Sheffield and Birmingham other than Derby... or maybe we'd slow down the long distance services further by including stops at places like Meadowhall (which TPE stop at) but I think that the balance between speed/stops is probably right - to skip places like Chesterfield (or Durham, Alnmouth...) would mean finding space for newly introduced local services which would possibly mean XC and EMT's London services both going down to just hourly... be careful what you wish for?

 

[Glenn1969]

I'm actually surprised XC and EM haven't considered stopping at Meadowhall which is a major shopping hub in its own right as well as offering tram connections and rail connections to Rotherham and Barnsley

 

[DarloRich]

I regularly commute with XC between Birmingham and Newcastle and, on the faster via Doncaster service, it calls at Derby, Sheffield, Doncaster, York, Darlington, Durham and Newcastle. However sometimes it will add in minor stops such as Tamworth, Burton-on-Trent and Chesterfield. Why does it call at these stations? I would have thought it would be a long-distance express train which only stops at major stations, and stations such as those would be better served by local commuter services?

Xc do it just for the lols. That or they offer the only service to call at those stations. Seems harsh to cut two towns off the network to save 4 minutes

Durham has a university and students generate a lot of passenger traffic.

I am intrigued by the idea of Tamworth as an interchange - I am struggling to think of any major flows that would be best served by this route, particularly as the only WCML trains that stop at Tamworth are the slow LNW services.

The interchange of the lnwr crewe services is quite popular and very attractively priced for journeys from the south. I am regular user and not he only one.

 

[DarloRich]

Connections at Tamworth are frequently absolutely awful. In all but a tiny number of cases they're also onto a relatively slow train. As a result, there are very few long-distance journeys where there's an optimal interchange at Tamworth.

In fairness the majority of people using that connection in my experience are looking to go to derby so the Nottingham train works well.

 

[BluePenguin]

Durham has a university and students generate a lot of passenger traffic.

I am intrigued by the idea of Tamworth as an interchange - I am struggling to think of any major flows that would be best served by this route, particularly as the only WCML trains that stop at Tamworth are the slow LNW services.

Virgin also stop there in the peaks as well as Nuneaten and Northampton at times

 

[talltim]

Apart from my Chesterfield-Sheffield commute, the only other train journies I’ve made in the past few years have been Chesterfield to Rugeley so the cross-country service stopping at Tamworth suits me quite well !

 

[Starmill]

Tamworth and Burton get a 2ph XC semi-fast service from Nottingham to Birmingham/Cardiff.
So they are not devoid of service if Bristol/Newcastle services don't call.

Do you really think its appropriate for 2/3 car DMUs to take up the slack? Given they are already full? In addition, for the residents of Burton-upon-Trent and Tamworth, what justification would you offer for the frequency cut?

 

[thenorthern]

Tamworth and Burton upon Trent are quite big towns and larger than many towns along the route such as Berwick-upon-Tweed, Taunton and Chesterfield.

 

[tommy2215]

Tamworth and Burton upon Trent are quite big towns and larger than many towns along the route such as Berwick-upon-Tweed, Taunton and Chesterfield.

Chesterfield's population is around 104,000, Burton-on-Trent is around 72,000, Tamworth is around 77,000.

As others have said if XC didn't stop at Burton and Tamworth they wouldn't receive any service at all, and of the XC intercity routes only 1 train per 2 hours in each direction stops anyway so I don't get what the big problem is. Tamworth is a good place to change for stations along the Southern part of the West Coast mainline too.

At Chesterfield there aren't any local routes so it has to be served by inter city trains. And I think a town with a population of more than 100,000 with a station that has nearly 2 million uses a year (as well as 210k interchanges) deserves at least 1 XC train per hour.

 

[Glenn1969]

Maybe my Speculative Ideas route could pick up these calls: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...twork-post-hs2-ewr.178138/page-2#post-3937311

 

[Class 170101]

Durham has a university and students generate a lot of passenger traffic.

I am intrigued by the idea of Tamworth as an interchange - I am struggling to think of any major flows that would be best served by this route, particularly as the only WCML trains that stop at Tamworth are the slow LNW services.

Xc do it just for the lols. That or they offer the only service to call at those stations. Seems harsh to cut two towns off the network to save 4 minutes

The interchange of the lnwr crewe services is quite popular and very attractively priced for journeys from the south. I am regular user and not he only one.

There is a fair amount of Interchange from MK, Rugby at Tamworth and on a two hourly basis the LNWR service does connect with the Scotland service - though its a bit tight especially if a 100mph (vice 110mph) Clas 350 is used on the LNWR operated leg, having doner it myself and sweated on the connection.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think that many of the above answers have actually missed the OP’s original question. His thread title has seemingly oversimplified it.

I reckon what he really wants to know is why do the fast northeast services that usually skip the 3 stations mentioned sometimes stop? That might be because of timetable changes due to engineering blockades, the sort that swap origins and destinations, or short notice cancellations of another service...

If the question really is why do XC long distance NE/SW services stop at all at Chesterfield, Burton and Tamworth, then I’d just reply that they always did when I used the route in the 70s under BR...

 

[duffield]

Fair point - it's a town that punches above its weight in railway terms despite not being a place you'd interchange..
...

Actually Chesterfield is a good interchange for getting on the long distance XC services when travelling from/to Nottingham, easier than Sheffield since you just stay on the same platform; I change there quite frequently.