Why don’t ICE trains run between Amsterdam and Berlin

[citycat]

As above. I’m just curious why this service is a loco hauled IC service instead of an ICE? Is there a technical reason for it or are there some other restraints?

Anyone know?

 

[godfreycomplex]

The long and the veiny of it is ICEs aren’t much faster over that route than ICs and the ICEs can be more beneficial to timings and comfort over other routes.

 

[biko]

If I remember correctly, it is a combination of multiple reasons. First of all, only between Hannover and Berlin, there is a high speed line. In the Netherlands, the line speed is mostly just 130 km/h. More importantly, it acts as a domestic service in order to make money. There were not sufficient cross border journeys for 1 train every 2 hours, so it needs passengers within the Netherlands and within Germany. Also, Deutsche Bahn wants to serve some smaller towns such as Rheine and as this train passes those towns, it stops and thus is very slow. Also, all trains need to stop in Bad Bentheim for changing the voltage, which means there is no real saving for an ICE

Recently, there have been talks about a faster IC that skips most of the Dutch stops and the small German stations but also about an ICE via Düsseldorf that can use high speed lines, but I don't think anything will change for a while.

 

[duesselmartin]

The Amsterdam to Frankfurt train also trundles slowly aus far as Cologne.
The only reason I see for the Berlin route is the integration into the the national IC network.

 

[Spoorslag '70]

Another point is that there is a distinct shortage of multi-voltage ICE3 (BR 406) which leads to frequent cancellations on the Brussel/Amsterdam - Frankfurt services. Those have to one with 406s as those are the only stock to be certified for Belgium/the Netherlands and the high-speed-line from Siegburg to Frankfurt.

 

[30907]

Another point is that there is a distinct shortage of multi-voltage ICE3 (BR 406) which leads to frequent cancellations on the Brussel/Amsterdam - Frankfurt services. Those have to one with 406s as those are the only stock to be certified for Belgium/the Netherlands and the high-speed-line from Siegburg to Frankfurt.

This is the fundamental reason - said HSL has spectacular gradients and can only be used by ICE sets.
Amsterdam-Berlin via Bentheim is due to get the new Talgo ECx sets.

 

[citycat]

Thanks for the replies. Interesting to see the new trains that are coming.

 

[StephenHunter]

This is the fundamental reason - said HSL has spectacular gradients and can only be used by ICE sets.
Amsterdam-Berlin via Bentheim is due to get the new Talgo ECx sets.

Aren't they also planning dual-voltage locos to cut out the change at Bentheim?

 

[Ianno87]

Looks like if it could be ICE, you'd be talking in the region of a 6.5 hour journey time reducing to 6 hours from faster running Hannover <> Berlin.

Probably not a big enough difference to dent air demand, so you may as well slow the service a little and use it to pick up intermediate flows.

 

[StephenHunter]

Historically the route was used by sleeper trains from Hook of Holland to Berlin and points East; Soviet sleepers used to run to the former from Moscow.

 

[30907]

Aren't they also planning dual-voltage locos to cut out the change at Bentheim?

Yes, all part of the Talgo package IIRC

Looks like if it could be ICE, you'd be talking in the region of a 6.5 hour journey time reducing to 6 hours from faster running Hannover <> Berlin.
Probably not a big enough difference to dent air demand, so you may as well slow the service a little and use it to pick up intermediate flows.

...which ISTR they did a fair while back: there used to be an Interregio on the alternate hour to serve Stendal, and the Amsterdams were a fraction faster.

 

[bspahh]

This is an interesting article on how to improve Amsterdam-Berlin journey times https://jonworth.eu/why-is-the-berl...nd-why-is-it-so-hard-to-do-anything-about-it/

 

[duesselmartin]

The article talks of untried locos. What loco has been ordered for the talgo set?

 

[MisterT]

The included loco's with the Talgo set. According to Talgo it's a multisystem locomotive capable of 230 km/h. According to Wikipedia it's a Talgo Travca, but I've never seen that actually mentioned in the official press articles, so that's speculation at best.

 

[Chester1]

If the journey time could be cut to 4 hours 29 minutes as the article suggests, there should be enough demand for a twice daily ICE Sprinter service alongside the existing stopping service. The journey time would be equivalent to London - central belt services where rail has about a third of the market. Its currently little more than two regional stopping services put together and its unappealing to any other other than keen environmentalists, train enthusiasts and those with a fear of flying.

 

[Ianno87]

If the journey time could be cut to 4 hours 29 minutes as the article suggests, there should be enough demand for a twice daily ICE Sprinter service alongside the existing stopping service. The journey time would be equivalent to London - central belt services where rail has about a third of the market. Its currently little more than two regional stopping services put together and its unappealing to any other other than keen environmentalists, train enthusiasts and those with a fear of flying.

I agree, 4.5 hours or so is the target if you're going to be serious about this. 6.5 hours to 6 hours won't make a jot of difference, but 4.5 hours certainly will.

 

[43096]

The included loco's with the Talgo set. According to Talgo it's a multisystem locomotive capable of 230 km/h. According to Wikipedia it's a Talgo Tracva, but I've never seen that actually mentioned in the official press articles, so that speculation at best.

It’s got fiasco written all over it. Untried design, multi-system and multi country acceptance required from the start. Quite why they didn’t do what the Danes have done and draw down options from the existing framework agreement for Vectrons, I have no idea.

 

[MisterT]

For all we know it could actually be a Siemens Vectron, even though a Bombardier locomotive would be more likely in my opinion, as Talgo has worked together with Bombardier before for producing some RENFE high speed trains, which features the same kind of coaches, for example the RENFE Class 130: RENFE Class 130 on Wikipedia
But I guess we'll have to wait and see for the first trains to actually see the daylight or until more information is released.

 

[duesselmartin]

The included loco's with the Talgo set. According to Talgo it's a multisystem locomotive capable of 230 km/h. According to Wikipedia it's a Talgo Travca, but I've never seen that actually mentioned in the official press articles, so that's speculation at best.

Googeling it suggest the travca has never been ordered by anybody yet.
There is also the question of the diesel lines to Westerland and Obersdorf.

 

[43096]

For all we know it could actually be a Siemens Vectron, even though a Bombardier locomotive would be more likely in my opinion, as Talgo has worked together with Bombardier before for producing some RENFE high speed trains, which features the same kind of coaches, for example the RENFE Class 130: RENFE Class 130 on Wikipedia
But I guess we'll have to wait and see for the first trains to actually see the daylight or until more information is released.

Except that all the press releases state that the contract is for 23 sets including locomotive and the artists impressions show something that looks nothing like a Vectron.

 

[biko]

If the journey time could be cut to 4 hours 29 minutes as the article suggests, there should be enough demand for a twice daily ICE Sprinter service alongside the existing stopping service. The journey time would be equivalent to London - central belt services where rail has about a third of the market. Its currently little more than two regional stopping services put together and its unappealing to any other other than keen environmentalists, train enthusiasts and those with a fear of flying.

Actually, it is not that bad. I know many people who took the service all the way to Berlin (even from Amsterdam) and they are really not environmentalists or enthusiasts. For a very large part of the Netherlands, Schiphol airport is not that well situated. Travelling west to Schiphol and then flying east to Berlin is not faster for anyone in the east or north of the Netherlands already and the train is the only option next to driving 400 km.

 

[Chester1]

Actually, it is not that bad. I know many people who took the service all the way to Berlin (even from Amsterdam) and they are really not environmentalists or enthusiasts. For a very large part of the Netherlands, Schiphol airport is not that well situated. Travelling west to Schiphol and then flying east to Berlin is not faster for anyone in the east or north of the Netherlands already and the train is the only option next to driving 400 km.

That makes sense for parts of Netherlands but I would be surprised if the rail market share for end to end journeys is in double figures. 6.5 hour train journeys usually do appallingly vs air travel. I intend to use the service at some point but primarily for environmental reasons.

 

[duesselmartin]

The distance could warrant for reintroducing a night service. It also could connect to a Praha service linking important tourist destinations.

 

[MisterT]

Except that all the press releases state that the contract is for 23 sets including locomotive and the artists impressions show something that looks nothing like a Vectron.

The bodywork can be changed. Same with those RENFE high speed trains. Technically the electric part of the locomotives is based on the Traxx platform (if I remember correctly).
But like I said, I'd be surprised if it actually was a Vectron. Because of the earlier partnership with Bombardier I personally expect a Traxx-like product.

 

[MarcVD]

As far as I know, Bombardier Traxx is 160 km/h only, and certainly not 230.

 

[43096]

The bodywork can be changed. Same with those RENFE high speed trains. Technically the electric part of the locomotives is based on the Traxx platform (if I remember correctly).
But like I said, I'd be surprised if it actually was a Vectron. Because of the earlier partnership with Bombardier I personally expect a Traxx-like product.

Given the problems Bombardier have had in getting the AC version of the TRAXX 3 authorised for use into Switzerland on the DB double-decker sets, I'm not sure basing it on TRAXX would be that much of an improvement!

 

[Austriantrain]

That makes sense for parts of Netherlands but I would be surprised if the rail market share for end to end journeys is in double figures. 6.5 hour train journeys usually do appallingly vs air travel. I intend to use the service at some point but primarily for environmental reasons.

Even *if* Amsterdam- Berlin could be made in 4.5 hours, the real question is whether there is traffic potential to run such trains with very few intermediate stops (and I mean real traffic potential, not artificial „lets go on a weekend to xyz on a €9 ticket“, because the railway is never going to make any money on this kind of traffic - those kind of offers are useful to fill trains up, but not as a basis for the entire train service).

At least as far as I know, Berlin traffic is supposed to be difficult - very few people willing to pay more than discount tickets. That is why the Vienna - Berlin night train is such a complicated service and did not exist at all for a couple of years. Very little premium traffic to go there; no surprise that Amsterdam- Frankfurt has the much better (though still quite slow) timetable. It is also the reason why Berlin has no full service airline hub.

 

[MisterT]

As far as I know, Bombardier Traxx is 160 km/h only, and certainly not 230.

There is a big difference in "based on" and the actual official Traxx locomotives in use. The AC3
Same as the Stadler SMILE platform, which is based on the FLIRT platform, but still offers a much higher top speed of 250 km/h vs the regular FLIRT top speed of 160 or 200 km/h, depending on the version.

Edit: I didn't realise it, but apparently, Bombardier actually even based the AVE Class 102 locomotives on their Traxx platform. Those have a top speed of 350 km/h.
So I don't think that custom 230 km/h locomotives would be an issue (well, technically that is. As said by someone else, Bombardier has had some issues with software over past few years).

 

[jamesontheroad]

It’s got fiasco written all over it. Untried design, multi-system and multi country acceptance required from the start.

You forgot one more thing. DB. That probably multiplies the probability of a procurement fiasco tenfold.

 

[James James]

It’s got fiasco written all over it. Untried design, multi-system and multi country acceptance required from the start. Quite why they didn’t do what the Danes have done and draw down options from the existing framework agreement for Vectrons, I have no idea.

I honestly don't see where the worry is. Talgo have an existing Travca demonstrator, and they effectively build locos as part of their high speed trains - and they're running in multiple countries. The locos are far from critical for the rest of the train service anyway, so it doesn't seem high risk?

Given the problems Bombardier have had in getting the AC version of the TRAXX 3 authorised for use into Switzerland on the DB double-decker sets, I'm not sure basing it on TRAXX would be that much of an improvement!

The problem here, I thought, was getting the sufficiently modern ETCS certified - as opposed to issues with the locos themselves?

For CH: older locos are fitted with ZUB - a legacy system, and mostly also with ETCS to run on ETCS-L2 routes (at least that's the case for all the Traxx's running on the Gotthard which has ETCS L2). Anything new being certified for Switzerland is not allowed to use ZUB, instead they need ETCS modern enough to support L1 LS (which is used on the conventionally signalled routes instead of ZUB), as well as ETCS L2. And they haven't gotten that certification for the newer ETCS system yet - hence those locos cannot run into Switzerland. And they cannot install ZUB because that's no longer certifiable.

There are trains that are being certified with sufficiently modern ETCS - e.g. the Stadler Giruno is operating purely with ETCS and no ZUB - but that's a very recent development, and presumably whatever system Bombardier want to use is different from the one that e.g. the Giruno uses (Giruno is using Siemens equipment IIRC). Not to say it reeks of Bombardier incompetence, but it's "just" a signalling isssue and not a loco hardware issue.