Why the fear/anger (or similar) emotions around mask wearing?

[bramling]

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #15 originally in this thread.

The general fear and anger I see around face masks is something I just don’t understand. They’re as annoying to wear as anything on earth but I really don’t understand the “got to go” stuff. It’s hardly that much of an imposition But if they frighten someone that much then they now don’t have to wear them.

i’m not trying to be provocative, so I hope it’s not taken that way, I simply don’t comprehend the strength of the emotion around this. I find it slightly…bizarre I guess is a good word.

It’s more the way people have latched on to them than anything else.

An invasive measure brought in at the blink of an eye, with essentially no evidence to suggest they make any positive contribution at all. Meanwhile there’s a whole list of negatives attached to them, not least the way some people have become compulsive about them. I can still remember the sight back in 2020 of someone walking up and down a virtually empty class 700 checking for anyone not in a mask. Nothing to do with health concerns, everything to do with seizing an opportunity to boss others around.

Then from a practical point of view there’s some rank hypocrisy - hardly anyone uses masks correctly, it’s pretty universal to see people retrieving a used one out of their pocket, failing to clean their hands before putting a mask on, touching or adjusting their mask once on, plus of course the plentiful sight of masks discarded on the ground.

Then there’s “politicians” like Khan who have latched on to masks simply to stick two fingers up.

The more we acquiesce to stuff like this, the more we will have. Hence why many view them as the thin end of a wedge, and are not prepared to go along with them.

 

[jumble]

N Ireland, Scotland and Wales have had mask mandates far longer than England, without any lessening of cases. More sometimes. That's why they have to go.

Amusingly it did occur to me that if you had 2 different countries
IloveMasks and IhateMasks whereby ILoveMasks there was no mask mandate but 90% of the population wore them by choice, and IHateMasks it is mandatory but 90% refused to comply.
This would have an interesting outcome on a debate on the perceived effectiveness of a mask mandate on case rates

 

[brad465]

If anyone wants to talk about analogies, seat belts are like vaccines. It's ludicrous to compare seat belts to masks.

If anyone really wants to compare seat belts with masks, then I would ask if seat belts are to be worn, should they be made of effective materials designed to cope well in a crash, or would we say that people would be free to wear flimsy loose fitting seat belts made of materials that are not in any way designed for that purpose on the basis that "anything is better than nothing" even if real world studies demonstrated that injuries by those wearing flimsy seat belts occured at a rate 47 times greater than injuries by those wearing seat belts designed for that purpose.

Seatbelts also don't conceal one's identity, impair communication, and don't get dumped in the environment (or at least not to anywhere near the frequency of masks).

There are so many reasons it would take hours to work through. However here are some quick(ish) points:

• Despite being into the third year of the pandemic, there is still no real proof that masks when used in public, non-medical settings have any real impact on spread. There are numerous studies that have tried to prove their effectiveness but none can come up with any real data. Most conclude that masks may work, but that there might be other factors too. Yet masks are still sold by many politicians around the globe as "following the science".
• In addition to the above, in many countries where mask rules are tighter & compliance higher cases still rise as much as they did here, and sometimes even higher. How can this be when masks "work"?
• At the very start of the pandemic, the World Health Organisation recommended against their use in public settings as they would drive behavioural patterns that might aid the rapid spread of the virus. Despite this many countries went ahead and mandated masks, which seems to have then driven the WHO to flip their advice despite no new evidence coming to light. So was this purely a politically motived change of policy?
• From a societal point of view, many cultures rely on facial expressions as part of communication. Many people don't just listen to what people say, but subconsciously observe people's eyes & mouths to gain more context in a conversation, or where no words are spoken to judge whether someone is friendly, benign or even a possible threat. Masks act as a barrier to these key interactions.
• Face coverings have been used in history & still are in some parts of the world as a means of suppression and dehumanisation. Hence many cultures are naturally adverse to them. They are also often associated with people wishing to conceal their identity in order to commit crime, or hide from authority. If in 2019 you were in a bank and someone walked in wearing a balaclava, what would your reaction have been?
• Finally for now, there is the environmental factor. Imagine 7 billion people using disposable masks correctly, i.e. changing them at least every 4 hours? Even if the average mask use was 2 a day, that would be 14 billion masks to dispose of every single day. Of course this is the extreme limit, but it is safe to say that every day hundreds of millions of disposable masks find their way to landfill sites, or often just left discarded on the streets, or in waterways to make their way to the planet's oceans. In 2019 the world was concerning itself with the impact of disposable consumables. In 2020 it didn't matter any more it seems.

Can't fault any of this, what amazes me is that, as you say at the end, even those most demanding any of environmental action, catching criminals and supporting those with impairments/disabilities cannot see the problems of masks in making those much harder to achieve. I like to think that covid is not the only thing "infecting" the population right now, but groupthink is also very "infectious", and long lasting.

 

[seagull]

I still find it amazing, and disconcerting, that I can walk into a bank with face covering and only eyes showing, and conduct my business as normal. When two years ago most likely the panic alarm would have been activated, police called and the blinds dropped...
I wonder if, as yet, any bank robbers have taken advantage of this?

 

[westv]

For me it's a visceral thing. I just find the sight of masks dystopian and dispiriting - especially when you see people walking down the street on their own wearing one. A lot of the people who argue for masks claim it makes people feel safe - while I'm sure that's true for some it has the exact opposite effect on me. I can't rationally expain it - but having tried many times it isn't something I can get over.

I think that's pretty close to how I feel too.

 

[yorkie]

I still find it amazing, and disconcerting, that I can walk into a bank with face covering and only eyes showing, and conduct my business as normal. When two years ago most likely the panic alarm would have been activated, police called and the blinds dropped...
I wonder if, as yet, any bank robbers have taken advantage of this?

I've been the victim of a theft where the theives took advantage of this

Seatbelts also don't conceal one's identity, impair communication, and don't get dumped in the environment (or at least not to anywhere near the frequency of masks).

True; notwithstanding the lack of a valid comparison in my opinion, there are many disadvantages to masks which simply don't apply to the seatbelt anaology.

 

[jumble]

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #15 originally in this thread.

The general fear and anger I see around face masks is something I just don’t understand. They’re as annoying to wear as anything on earth but I really don’t understand the “got to go” stuff. It’s hardly that much of an imposition But if they frighten someone that much then they now don’t have to wear them.

i’m not trying to be provocative, so I hope it’s not taken that way, I simply don’t comprehend the strength of the emotion around this. I find it slightly…bizarre I guess is a good word.

Have you asked any secondary school teacher about their view on how this affects them doing their job and the quality of education that they can deliver?

 

[initiation]

That simply isn't true, look at the cases in Wales & Scotland compared to England on the 30th July just after the masks stopped being mandatory in England. They are much higher in England in all areas.

Rather than cherry picking one date, let's look at the whole period.

England reporrted fewer cases per capita than Scotland, Wales or NI while face masks were not mandated



More clealy visible in this graph (again data from the Gov dashboard). English cases did drop very significantly immidiately after 19th July. NI remained high, and Scotland had a big spike and Wales went above for ~3 months



Now there could be an argument that different testing regimes, demographics etc.. effect this but I didn't see you make that point when your cherry picked one day.
And remember the devolved nations also continued other forms of restrictions such as capacity limits for longer, and introduced vaxx passports.


--

Overall I am very happy masks are going. Hateful things both from the point of view of me having to wear one, and from having to see a depressing faceless sea of people when our and about. Hopefully the term mandatory face covering will never be seen in English law again.

 

[Bikeman78]

It's the people in cars that get me! You're sat in a car by yourself why on earth are you wearing a face covering?!? Two people in car fine, could be giving a someone a lift and using high levels of caution (though you'd be better just cranking the window and letting fresh air do the job). But sat by yourself in your car? Bizarre.

In my experience, a lot of these "caring" people still don't leave a decent gap when overtaking a bicycle.

Amusingly it did occur to me that if you had 2 different countries
IloveMasks and IhateMasks whereby ILoveMasks there was no mask mandate but 90% of the population wore them by choice, and IHateMasks it is mandatory but 90% refused to comply.
This would have an interesting outcome on a debate on the perceived effectiveness of a mask mandate on case rates

Last summer/autumn I think the proportion of people wearing masks on the tube was lower than National Rail trains departing from the London termini. People sticking two fingers up to Sadiq Khan perhaps?

 

[3rd rail land]

Last summer/autumn I think the proportion of people wearing masks on the tube was lower than National Rail trains departing from the London termini. People sticking two fingers up to Sadiq Khan perhaps?

That was certainly the case for me. I wore a face covering when it was a legal requirement but not when it was a condition of carriage. Not sure why Sadiq thinks the rules don't apply to him, one set of rules for London and a different set for everyone else. That's not how it works Sadiq!

 

[Welly]

It's the people in cars that get me! You're sat in a car by yourself why on earth are you wearing a face covering?!? Two people in car fine, could be giving a someone a lift and using high levels of caution (though you'd be better just cranking the window and letting fresh air do the job). But sat by yourself in your car? Bizarre.

I work in a hospital and as far as I know we will still have to wear masks while on duty but I see so many NHS staff do that in their personal cars on the way to and from work that it looks apocalyptic! Oh, and the sight of discarded masks in the hospital grounds is a marvel to behold....

 

[John Luxton]

But sat by yourself in your car? Bizarre.

Saw an HST driver at Plymouth wearing one in November!

 

[island]

The amount of unrecyclable waste generated from masks is appalling.

 

[quantinghome]

The science behind car seat belts is unquestionable.

Most people know that if a vehicle suddenly stops you will keep moving if not restrained and be more likely injured or killed, in particular in a small vehicle such as a car or van.

Belts became a requirement around the time I passed my driving test in 1982. I never questioned the logic of them.

However, whilst I always wear a seat belt in a car and wouldn't ever think of going even a few yards without one - that's if I could in my current car as an audible warning sounds as well as a warning light.

I still won't wear them on a coach as they are not fitted to buses or trains thus why coaches?

There was a very long and from the sounds of it acrimonious debate about mandatory use of seatbelts, including questioning of the science, libertarian arguments and so on.

Of course everyone who had been against making them compulsory went very quiet when the legal requirement to wear them produced large reductions in road casualties. Much as the climate change sceptics have gone quiet over the last couple of years.

 

[martin2345uk]

The amount of unrecyclable waste generated from masks is appalling.

I see so many of them lying around on the floor, do people really just drop them??

 

[Ediswan]

There was a very long and from the sounds of it acrimonious debate about mandatory use of seatbelts, including questioning of the science, libertarian arguments and so on.

This unfortunate incident did a lot to advance the pro-seatbelt campaign.
https://www.whoateallthepies.tv/sto...rdon-banks-of-the-sight-in-his-right-eye.html

On This Day In 1972: Car Crash Robs The Great Gordon Banks Of The Sight In His Right Eye​

 

[ExRes]

I see so many of them lying around on the floor, do people really just drop them??

I believe most people are careful to only drop them where there are no dog ends, chewing gum, used syringes, beer cans or McDonalds boxes already in residence

 

[kristiang85]

I believe most people are careful to only drop them where there are no dog ends, chewing gum, used syringes, beer cans or McDonalds boxes already in residence

The litter culture in this country is atrocious.

Even simple things like people leaving rubbish on their train seat table for someone else to clear up when they have to walk past a bin to get off the train boils my pee.

So it's no surprise that every day I see masks littering our grey and pleasant land.

But then think of all the ones that end up in rivers and oceans... It makes the various plastic item bans absolutely pointless.

 

[greyman42]

Masks have been as “forced” as seatbelts (road traffic laws) and clothes (public decency laws). Why is a bit of cloth such a big pain point?

Seat belts and clothing are here to stay. Are you saying that masks should be here to stay as well, if not when would you suggest it is safe to stop wearing them?

 

[21C101]

I suspect the ven diagram of those who wear masks and those who put #FBPE on their twitter account resembles a sketch of a polo mint.

 

[Bikeman78]

Seat belts and clothing are here to stay. Are you saying that masks should be here to stay as well, if not when would you suggest it is safe to stop wearing them?

This is an important point. If the likes of Sadiq Khan and Mark Drakeford don't think it is okay to ditch masks now, then they need to be clear about what needs to happen to allow the mandate to be dropped. I recall that masks were not required anywhere in Wales, apart from public transport, until September 2020. But now they are here, Mark Drakeford appears to be unwilling to ditch them.

 

[Yew]

if medical authority says they might do some good, fine.

I don't care what a medical authority says particuarly when they are influenced by behavioural scientists, I care what the evidence says. It has consistently shown that any effects are statistically insignificant. This leads me to believe that this is not a measure for epidemiological control, but to give certain groups of people a sense that they are helping in some way, to alleviate fear. Perhaps a good example would be the masks during the London Smogs, they made no effect, but were a reassurance to the population.

I have little patience for such measures, as it's a waste of goodwill and compliance that may well have been needed is Omicron was as bad as people feared.

 

[nw1]

Probably the same reason why most of these people have an NHS and EU bumper sticker...

Remain support (or should I say now, 'build bridges with the EU' support) is quite understandable for a multitude of reasons; wearing a mask on your own in a car is by contrast maybe a little odd. I don't think the two can be equated. (That said, there could be some sensible reason such as travelling a short distance by car between two venues where masks are compulsory and not wishing to take the mask off and on again).

 

[Paul Jones 88]

I have no problem with masks as a personal choice, however, I fail to understand the benefits of putting a cheaply produced piece of cloth which has often been used repeatedly over your mouth.
The simple clue on the packaging is 'Non Medical Use'.

 

[Tramfan]

I have no problem with masks as a personal choice, however, I fail to understand the benefits of putting a cheaply produced piece of cloth which has often been used repeatedly over your mouth.
The simple clue on the packaging is 'Non Medical Use'.

Not only previously used repeatedly, but sometimes been dropped on the floor or fiddled with on tables and then worn.

 

[Eyersey468]

I think that's pretty close to how I feel too.

And me

 

[Stephen42]

I must admit that's where I check out also. The fact that they seem ineffective or at least any effect on a population scale seems to be almost undetectable (even if for some individuals who are wearing FFP2/FFP3 masks correctly there is a positive impact on their risk of spreading/catching) is as good a reason as any to do away with any mandating and adopt a sensible each to their own approach (you wanna wear one? Crack on it's no skin off my nose. You don't wanna wear one? crack on it's no skin off my nose). But I just cannot understand how we end up with there being a strong under current to the discussion being that it's all about "state control" and some sort of plan to soften us up for something undefined rather than it just being pathetic politicians desperately grasping for something that makes it look like their not just winging it and so grabbing the first thing any scientist might suggest has an effect and which isn't going to damage the politician's reputation to badly either with those who are in favour of more restrictions or with those who are in favour of fewer restrictions.

It's similar to who I just don't get those who attack more generally the scientists who say things that aren't popular with those that, perfectly understandably and reasonably, want the pandemic to be over and restrictions to end and so then accuse those scientists of having some sort of agenda to "control" the population (see my thread here for more on that).

It's all just so bizarre to me and always feels only a few steps removed from going full Piers Corbyn (which I hope we could all agree one should not do!) or talking about there being a "plandemic".

Plus if they wanted it as a sign of state control it doesn't really follow they'd have ever removed the requirement in the first place or now.

Perhaps more charitably it's that sometimes there isn't an easy answer and that out of available restrictions to mandate a mask in a certain place is lower impact than forcing the place to close altogether. As with any restriction, quantification of impact (if any) is extremely difficult given there isn't a comparable control group, often are implemented together and human behaviour is far more complex than can be reasonably modelled.

It's easy to understand the strength of emotion, many people won't find them comfortable and previous iterations had them in situations where they seemed unlikely to make a difference or hindered the activity itself. Others may also be frustrated at low adherence, either for the source effect likely being stronger or see it as lack of respect that so many people who are able to wear a mask decide not to.

If you look a little later than that, you will see that after the initial fall after 19th July relaxations, cases then stablished and didn't really peak in England until the onset of Omicron.

In contrast, Scotland had a large spike in the Summer, just after the date you quoted.

There is no evidence that the mandating of masks does anything to reduce case rates.

If anyone wants to talk about analogies, seat belts are like vaccines. It's ludicrous to compare seat belts to masks.

If anyone really wants to compare seat belts with masks, then I would ask if seat belts are to be worn, should they be made of effective materials designed to cope well in a crash, or would we say that people would be free to wear flimsy loose fitting seat belts made of materials that are not in any way designed for that purpose on the basis that "anything is better than nothing" even if real world studies demonstrated that injuries by those wearing flimsy seat belts occured at a rate 47 times greater than injuries by those wearing seat belts designed for that purpose.

Comparing case rates isn't a sensible way to measure the impact, for a start if masks work they would reduce transmission rate rather than raw case numbers so it should be a graph of transmission rate/R. More importantly actions that reduce risk of a particular contact will be outweighed by ones that increase the number of contacts so you can't use mask dates in isolation, it's just as junk as those putting lines on of vaccine rollout dates and noticing cases went up after them for unrelated reasons.

Given the reference to FFP3 earlier in the thread and 47 times you seem to talking about the Cambridge University Hospitals study. That was in a clinical rather than community setting and the 47 times number was not a comparison between types of masks. While I think nearly everyone agrees that better quality masks are likely more effective, it's important not to take the evidence out of context.

 

[rapmastaj]

As I understand it, standard non-medical type masks have very little effect in preventing transmission, except for stopping large droplets if you are talking direct to someone at close range.

Much more important is their psychological effect. Many people feel safer when others nearby are wearing masks, however irrational this is. So we end up in a situation where some people will avoid public transport at all costs, because they're scared that they'll be stuck next to someone without a mask.

The sooner we're able to treat covid like any other (generally mild) disease the better in my opinion, but after these last two years of isolationism it will take a long time for attitudes to change.

 

[brad465]

The litter culture in this country is atrocious.

Even simple things like people leaving rubbish on their train seat table for someone else to clear up when they have to walk past a bin to get off the train boils my pee.

So it's no surprise that every day I see masks littering our grey and pleasant land.

But then think of all the ones that end up in rivers and oceans... It makes the various plastic item bans absolutely pointless.

I could go into a long rant about how neoliberalism and the individualism it encourages goes a long way to causing that sort of behaviour, but that's another story. Even if everyone disposed of waste properly, I'd say that's the least worst option, as anything not recyclable still ends up consuming resources and polluting the environment in our oceans, other waterways and filling up landfill faster. Masks are not only adding to that, but they're reducing the amount of conversation and attention generally towards environmental concerns.

Elsewhere, there are a number of incidents that could be labelled as utterly disgraceful regarding treatment of others surrounding masks, and this latest one seems to be right up there: comedian Rosie Jones, who has cerebral palsy, has revealed after getting an Uber ride that the app told her she wasn't wearing a mask on her journey. She's spoken out in disgust at this as she was wearing one and is (rightly I think) accusing them of ableism. But even without this, the fact that an app for a service one is using informs someone about this sort of behaviour is wrong on so many levels, not least it seems to bring mask wearing into the same league as vaccine passports with regards to a social credit system:

https://twitter.com/josierones/status/1484322226555940865

Just received this message from @Uber. I was wearing a mask and the driver drove away. I had a hand on the door and I was left in the road. He thought I was drunk. I wasn’t. I have cerebral palsy. Please make sure your drivers know the difference between the two. This is ableism.

 

[takno]

I could go into a long rant about how neoliberalism and the individualism it encourages goes a long way to causing that sort of behaviour, but that's another story. Even if everyone disposed of waste properly, I'd say that's the least worst option, as anything not recyclable still ends up consuming resources and polluting the environment in our oceans, other waterways and filling up landfill faster. Masks are not only adding to that, but they're reducing the amount of conversation and attention generally towards environmental concerns.

Elsewhere, there are a number of incidents that could be labelled as utterly disgraceful regarding treatment of others surrounding masks, and this latest one seems to be right up there: comedian Rosie Jones, who has cerebral palsy, has revealed after getting an Uber ride that the app told her she wasn't wearing a mask on her journey. She's spoken out in disgust at this as she was wearing one and is (rightly I think) accusing them of ableism. But even without this, the fact that an app for a service one is using informs someone about this sort of behaviour is wrong on so many levels, not least it seems to bring mask wearing into the same league as vaccine passports with regards to a social credit system:

https://twitter.com/josierones/status/1484322226555940865

View attachment 109073

A significant proportion of Uber drivers are always on the lookout for excuses not to take jobs they don't fancy. If they just reject too many of them then the app scores them down and offers them less decent jobs. The upshot is that as soon as these get-outs are added in they will get abused relentlessly.

As ever, the platform is designed by Californians to meet Californian sentiments. Public service barely exists as a concept there, whereas snooty judgements based on fashions rather than science very much are.