Why were the Deltics retired and not cascaded?

[USRailFan]

The Deltics were hardly 20 years old when the HSTs were introduced, yet the whole series of locos were retired pretty shortly after the HST introduction.... You'd think high-power 100mph-capable diesels would be welcome elsewhere on the rail network, they could easily, age-wise, have operated for another 10-12 years?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

The Deltics were hardly 20 years old when the HSTs were introduced, yet the whole series of locos were retired pretty shortly after the HST introduction.... You'd think high-power 100mph-capable diesels would be welcome elsewhere on the rail network, they could easily, age-wise, have operated for another 10-12 years?

They're not what one would describe as reliable. It was a fairly significant logistical exercise to keep them in squadron service.

 

[trebor79]

Was it a case of being a relatively small fleet, requiring specialist maintenance? Plus high speed diesels of the era probably required more frequent overhaul than low or medium speed units. And I bet overhaul for a deltic engine was considerably more expensive than for something less exotic.

So lots of cost for relatively few locomotives which would mean running a mixed fleet on some routes, at a time when there was clearly a move towards units and away from hauled coaches anyway?

Something like that?

 

[Railwaysceptic]

I'd have thought the single biggest reason they weren't "cascaded" was that the other routes where their 100 mph capability could be utilised were already sorted: the WCML electrified) and GWML (HST).

 

[Clarence Yard]

They were actually fairly reliable - they were the most reliable of all the ER passenger type 4 & 5 locos for a number of years.

They were really suited to fast, limited stop services that took a few hours of constant thrash. The diagrams that involved 3 trips to or from Edinburgh in 24 hours were the best for them. The semi fast work they got at the end of their life did not and by this time they were well worn, having done about 3 million miles each.

They required constant specialist attention and that didn’t come cheap or easily. Depot, works or support staff (like me!) had to really know them, the move of locos from HA and GD to YK didn’t go as well as ER HQ had anticipated and by this time the 1970’s material shortages were adversely affecting the smaller BR classes availability.

There really wasn’t any further use for them as all the other lines either had their 100/125 mph traction or didn’t require what a Deltic would provide over a ETH cl.47.

 

[tbtc]

It's a shame that the Forum didn't exist forty years ago; there would have been some cracking threads full of suggestions of what we should have done to try to find a home for the Deltics!

 

[Tobbes]

It's a shame that the Forum didn't exist forty years ago; there would have been some cracking threads full of suggestions of what we should have done to try to find a home for the Deltics!

Yes, the mind boggles. Waterloo - Exeter? Sadly, not LST-IPS-NRW hourly expresses - 3300hp to flatten Brentwood Bank would have been a start, though clearly 86s, 90s and now 745s bring rather more than that to the party.

 

[Bald Rick]

Surely it was because Captain Deltic had stopped being involved in maintaining them and gone to write in Modern Railways instead?

 

[ainsworth74]

Sadly, not LST-IPS-NRW hourly expresses - 3300hp to flatten Brentwood Bank would have been a start, though clearly 86s, 90s and now 745s bring rather more than that to the party.

There's more than enough of them to run those services on an hourly frequency and they'd add power compared to the 47s which I think were the standard traction pre-electrification. I can see it

 

[trebor79]

Yes, the mind boggles. Waterloo - Exeter? Sadly, not LST-IPS-NRW hourly expresses - 3300hp to flatten Brentwood Bank would have been a start, though clearly 86s, 90s and now 745s bring rather more than that to the party.

Ooooh. Now that's a railtour I'd definitely like to do!

 

[Tobbes]

Ooooh. Now that's a railtour I'd definitely like to do!

Well given the 5,000hp of the 90s, you'd probably want to have double-headed 55s "to provide a margin"....

 

[superjohn]

Reliability debates aside, a small fleet like that will always be cost inefficient. Compared to the 500+ class 47 and 300+ class 37 in service at the time the Deltics were very much a micro fleet.

The unique (on railways) engines were the only way to get the required power at the time they were introduced. In the age of the HST that was no longer the case and their complexity was a liability in terms of the required parts and specialist knowledge. They were kept in service by having a large number of spare power units and swapping them out for minimum maintenance downtime. This was contrary to normal practice at the time.

In the end they proved more valuable as a source of spare bogies for class 37 and 50 than as whole locomotives. BR at the time was not short of passenger traction.

 

[randyrippley]

To a point they were cascaded - to transpennine, and secondary ECML services.
But surely the limiting factor was manufacturer support, which I understand became thin after Paxman took over responsibility from Napier during one of the GEC asset-stripping amalgamations. With the Royal Navy scrapping its minesweepers as fast as it could, the total number of Deltic engines in service dropped rapidly making spares and servicing expensive.
I'm not sure if Paxman even touch them now - anyone know?

 

[superjohn]

I'm not sure if Paxman even touch them now - anyone know?

Paxman in Colchester repaired a power unit from 55016 following its 1999 exhaust fire incident. There is an interesting article about it here:

POWER UNIT REBUILD GALLERY

The Colchester plant has now closed and I am not aware of them working on any Deltic power units since. That may not be a policy though. As with all things in preservation, anything can be done for the right price. When 55022 suffered a catastrophic engine failure Martin Walker resorted to adapting a former marine engine as a replacement rather than repairing it.

 

[WesternLancer]

would the economic downturn of the 1980-83ish period also count against? demand for services would not have been growing.

 

[Journeyman]

would the economic downturn of the 1980-83ish period also count against? demand for services would not have been growing.

Very much so. I suspect there were plenty of adequately powerful locos around to deal with whatever traffic there was.

Wikipedia claims thought was given to cascading Deltics to the Midland Mainline, Trans-Pennine or Cross Country services, but I guess whatever performance boost they could have given was probably outweighed by the expense and hassle of keeping them in service.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Yes, the mind boggles. Waterloo - Exeter?

That was briefly considered, but was very quickly rejected.

Reliability wasn't brilliant - low availability with high maintenance costs, combined with the specialist knowledge needed to maintain the engines*, not forgetting a realisation that the stop / start nature of the line beyond Salisbury would have had an adverse effect on them. The driving technique is also somewhat different from most other diesels.

If it had been practical to keep them, they'd have simply stayed on the Trans-Pennine runs for a few more years.


*They'd never have got enough of the experienced staff to relocate.

 

[clagmonster]

Yes, the mind boggles. Waterloo - Exeter? Sadly, not LST-IPS-NRW hourly expresses - 3300hp to flatten Brentwood Bank would have been a start, though clearly 86s, 90s and now 745s bring rather more than that to the party.

I don't recall details, but didn't 55022 work a Liverpool St - Norwich vice 86 in the privatised era?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Deltic followed the same sort of economic track as Concorde really, except that had no replacement.
Meanwhile, EE's Type 2s and 3s are into their 7th decade.

 

[47296lastduff]

55022 worked regularly for Virgin one summer, on a Saturday Birmingham to Kent coast and back train (about 2005 I think).

 

[Journeyman]

I think it's interesting how quickly technology developed. At the time they were introduced, for the power output and performance, they were the only game in town, unless you chose to double head every train. By the time they were withdrawn, the HST was a great step forward in performance and comfort, and the class 87 was cruising up Beattock and Shap with ease.

 

[ainsworth74]

55022 worked regularly for Virgin one summer, on a Saturday Birmingham to Kent coast and back train (about 2005 I think).

That was the late 90s Virgin CrossCountry was Voyagerised by 2005.

 

[delt1c]

The deltics did what they were designed for and lasted their designed lifespan. If you convert years to miles operated they way exceeded anything else in their time. As otjers have said there was no other suitable work for them. They were far outfront in reliability but this came at a cost as others have mentioned. For those who think they were unreliable that was not the case, they were extremely reliable but that came at a cost. In later years yes they were temperamental but this was due to a run down in maintenance and cost cutting. Lets not undermine what these fantastic machines, you had to be there to appreciate what they attained. If you weren’t there you can only dream.

 

[xotGD]

Deltics would have made an interesting alternative to 47/7s on the Edinburgh - Glasgow push-pulls.

A Deltic storming through the Queen St tunnel every 30 minutes - My Lords!

 

[Journeyman]

Deltics would have made an interesting alternative to 47/7s on the Edinburgh - Glasgow push-pulls.

A Deltic storming through the Queen St tunnel every 30 minutes - My Lords!

How about Class 27 style, with a Deltic at each end? *wibble*

 

[delt1c]

How about Class 27 style, with a Deltic at each end? *wibble*

Deltics were not great hill climbers and took very careful driving. Problem was power to weight ratio they were race horses not cart horses.

 

[ainsworth74]

Lets not undermine what these fantastic machines, you had to be there to appreciate what they attained. If you weren’t there you can only dream.

I have very fond memories of the Deltic Retro Scot 3 (by Retro Railtours) between Edinburgh and York behind Alycidon (two years ago today apparently!). Yes they were probably a bit outdated when retired compared to HSTs and other traction available then (let alone know) but good lord it was something having that beast power its way down (up) the ECML. I had hoped for a repeat a few month later on a Tornado railtour where the return leg was due to be hauled by Alycidon but sadly a massive failure put paid to that just before Drem (vintage traction being unreliable compared to the more modern Tornado shouldn't be surprising I suppose!).

 

[Grumpy]

Meanwhile, EE's Type 2s and 3s are into their 7th decade.

EE's type 2's are long gone

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

EE's type 2's are long gone

Class 20 I meant! They were Type 1s of course.
EE Type 2 (class 23) "Baby Deltics" were among the many lemons of the modernisation plan diesels.

 

[RLBH]

Class 20 I meant! They were Type 1s of course.

Although a Class 20 has similar power at the rail to the lower-powered Class 2s, and a heck of a lot more than a Class 15/16/17. It's actually got a little more than a Class 23!

Oh, and Class 20s were built for 75mph. Type 1s were 60mph, Type 2s 75mph. What they didn't have was a steam heat boiler and a second cab.