Why were the Deltics retired and not cascaded?

[Bald Rick]

I was amused to see in Roger Ford's latest Informed Sources e-preview:

Excellent! Two Deltic Engines at 4 tonnes each, plus a generator, cooler groups, exhaust, fuel system and a full fuel tank, I’m guessing about 25tonnes?

Using the Tesla 3 energy density of 150Wh/kg of battery pack (not just the batteries), gives you a 3.75MWh capacity. That’s an hour and a half at full power, which in reality means about 3 hours range, allowing for coasting, operating on less than full power, and some regen.

 

[Taunton]

Using the Tesla 3 energy density of 150Wh/kg of battery pack (not just the batteries), gives you a 3.75MWh capacity. That’s an hour and a half at full power, which in reality means about 3 hours range, allowing for coasting, operating on less than full power, and some regen.

I have some experience of a Tesla, and the actual range is about 60% of what the book says (not particularly critical of them, as petrol cars come out about the same compared to the manufacturers test drivers).

 

[Bald Rick]

I have some experience of a Tesla, and the actual range is about 60% of what the book says (not particularly critical of them, as petrol cars come out about the same compared to the manufacturers test drivers).

I wasnt going, by range, but by battery capacity.

Range is determined by how you drive compared to WLTP benchmarks. I know people who usually beat ‘the book’, in both electric and ICE cars (myself included).

 

[Taunton]

The HST wasn't double headed per se, but essentially the equivalent

They effectively took the Deltic concept and put half at each end of the train! Bigger engines too, of course

I always thought the HST was effectively putting an A4 on each end, facing opposite ways. There was even the space at the inner end of the power unit for the coal, and it had a corridor tender. Guard didn't like sitting there after they first came along, got too dirty in there ...

 

[randyrippley]

You only need one Deltic diesel - the late model ones were kicking out around 4400hp from a single 18-cylinder block
If you used one of those you could devote half the engine room to battery storage

 

[AHoseason]

Surely Deltics were cascaded onto the Liverpool route

 

[CW2]

Surely Deltics were cascaded onto the Liverpool route

No, they did occasionally work to Liverpool, but that was entirely ad-hoc. They were never diagrammed for that work.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Surely Deltics were cascaded onto the Liverpool route

No, they did occasionally work to Liverpool, but that was entirely as-hoc. They were never diagrammed for that work.

Many of those Liverpool runs were effectively "running-in" turns from York depot, either after an exam or in preparation for an upcoming railtour turn. The thinking seemed to be that if the Deltic failed to perform properly it was less inconvenient to the total operation for it to happen on the Trans-Pennine route than on the ECML. Doubtful that such thinking would be applied today.

 

[edwin_m]

Many of those Liverpool runs were effectively "running-in" turns from York depot, either after an exam or in preparation for an upcoming railtour turn. The thinking seemed to be that if the Deltic failed to perform properly it was less inconvenient to the total operation for it to happen on the Trans-Pennine route than on the ECML. Doubtful that such thinking would be applied today.

A failed Deltic might also have been a long way from any depot that had experience of maintaining them. Perhaps it was to do with the climb up to Standedge being more of a test than anything on the ECML?

I remember hearing a strange sound in the middle of one night around 1977. At the time we lived one valley over from the Standedge route but I'd never heard a train from home. When we later moved to Scotland I realised it was the distinctive call of the Deltic, and even later I found out about their regular use on a Transpennine overnight parcels working.

 

[CW2]

The 21:50 York - Shrewsbury sometimes got a Deltic as far as Stockport, returning with the balancing 22:50 Shrewsbury - York, 00:50 or thereabouts off Stockport. The loco would come off at Leeds and work the 03:00 Leeds - Hull. This was a convenient way of getting a Deltic from York to Hull, to work a Hull - Kings Cross service. Again, not diagrammed, but a good bit of work by Control.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

A failed Deltic might also have been a long way from any depot that had experience of maintaining them. Perhaps it was to do with the climb up to Standedge being more of a test than anything on the ECML?

Equally sending a Deltic to Liverpool pretty much guaranteed it would come back again as "borrowing" it would be pointless as no local crews could work it. A trip on the ECML would create a greater risk of the loco being purloined for something other than the return working.

 

[kermit]

Equally sending a Deltic to Liverpool pretty much guaranteed it would come back again as "borrowing" it would be pointless as no local crews could work it. A trip on the ECML would create a greater risk of the loco being purloined for something other than the return working.

Is there an opportunity here for a confessional thread from retired staff - "Rolling Stock I have Wilfully Nicked"?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Is there an opportunity here for a confessional thread from retired staff - "Rolling Stock I have Wilfully Nicked"?

There could be , but wrong thread ...try a new one ?

 

[Cowley]

There could be , but wrong thread ...try a new one ?

Oops...

Stock that rail staff (ahem) ‘borrowed’ to keep the job moving?

As mentioned in this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/why-were-the-deltics-retired-and-not-cascaded.208283/post-4790390 A lot of us remember things turning up in the days of BR that probably weren’t where they were supposed to be. Local to me were departmental allocated 33s and 50s...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Inversnecky]

Was it a case of being a relatively small fleet, requiring specialist maintenance? Plus high speed diesels of the era probably required more frequent overhaul than low or medium speed units. And I bet overhaul for a deltic engine was considerably more expensive than for something less exotic.

So lots of cost for relatively few locomotives which would mean running a mixed fleet on some routes, at a time when there was clearly a move towards units and away from hauled coaches anyway?

Something like that?

I think this was likely, as other classes were done away with for that reason.

 

[EveningStar]

Equally sending a Deltic to Liverpool pretty much guaranteed it would come back again as "borrowing" it would be pointless as no local crews could work it. A trip on the ECML would create a greater risk of the loco being purloined for something other than the return working.

As an undergraduate in Liverpool at the time who would often gravitate to Lime Street, I noticed that sometimes the Deltic would 'slip' an hour on the diagram instead of returning on the next xx:05 departure, presumably because not all crews signed for Deltic's.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

As an undergraduate in Liverpool at the time who would often gravitate to Lime Street, I noticed that sometimes the Deltic would 'slip' an hour on the diagram instead of returning on the next xx:05 departure, presumably because not all crews signed for Deltic's.

I think it depended on whether the inward driver required a break or not. I believe on one occasion the ER man duly ran the Deltic round after arriving at Lime Street and went for his break. This led to another loco having to be found which then topped the train with the Deltic heading east DIT. After that ER control took more care in communicating with their LMR colleagues!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Deltics were rarely used on the Edinburgh to Kings Cross Freightliner , probably for balancing purposes.

A good friend , when power controller at Kings Cross many years ago , rostered one to a late evening Kings Cross - Hertford North commuter train , light engine back to the Park. The crew took it without any quibble.

Best of all - they were suggested as possible power for the Cambrian - yes - the Cambrian. Good idea maybe - did not go very far beyond a report.

 

[Whistler40145]

Deltics were rarely used on the Edinburgh to Kings Cross Freightliner , probably for balancing purposes.

A good friend , when power controller at Kings Cross many years ago , rostered one to a late evening Kings Cross - Hertford North commuter train , light engine back to the Park. The crew took it without any quibble.

Best of all - they were suggested as possible power for the Cambrian - yes - the Cambrian. Good idea maybe - did not go very far beyond a report.

I don't think Deltics would've been suitable for use on the Cambrian Line, the low speed limit and weight restrictions on Barmouth Viaduct would've been the nail in the coffin.

Deltics are at home on a nice long flat stretch of line where they can get speeds of up to 100mph

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I don't think Deltics would've been suitable for use on the Cambrian Line, the low speed limit and weight restrictions on Barmouth Viaduct would've been the nail in the coffin.

Deltics are at home on a nice long flat stretch of line where they can get speeds of up to 100mph

I think it was really , not a serious plan at all. Maybe a once a day limited stop tourist train. Which would have been fine with appropriate rolling stock , scenic guide and so on.

 

[Whistler40145]

I think it was really , not a serious plan at all. Maybe a once a day limited stop tourist train. Which would have been fine with appropriate rolling stock , scenic guide and so on.

I can just about remember when ScotRail sent out a Deltic and Mark 3 push pull set to Oban several times on special trains from Edinburgh

 

[hexagon789]

I don't think Deltics would've been suitable for use on the Cambrian Line, the low speed limit and weight restrictions on Barmouth Viaduct would've been the nail in the coffin.

Deltics are pretty light - 100 tonnes, lighter than 37s

 

[AM9]

Yes, the mind boggles. Waterloo - Exeter? Sadly, not LST-IPS-NRW hourly expresses - 3300hp to flatten Brentwood Bank would have been a start, though clearly 86s, 90s and now 745s bring rather more than that to the party.

A standard class 309 consist could do better than a class 55 on the GEML.

 

[Master29]

A similar thing could be asked about Class 52 "Westerns". They were only in frontline service 16 years when they were withdrawn in favour of 47's, 50's and HST's but this may have been because of the hydraulic factor.

 

[Whistler40145]

A similar thing could be asked about Class 52 "Westerns". They were only in frontline service 16 years when they were withdrawn in favour of 47's, 50's and HST's but this may have been because of the hydraulic factor.

More that British Rail was eliminating the use of Steam Heat Boilers and moving to ETH, plus more coaching stock was air brake only

 

[edwin_m]

More that British Rail was eliminating the use of Steam Heat Boilers and moving to ETH, plus more coaching stock was air brake only

Many classes had air brakes retrofitted so I imagine the Westerns could have been too. ETH might have been more difficult as a generator/alternator would be needed and the control system would have to produce enough volts in the ETH at the same time as keeping the engine working with the hydraulic transmission.

 

[Whistler40145]

Many classes had air brakes retrofitted so I imagine the Westerns could have been too. ETH might have been more difficult as a generator/alternator would be needed and the control system would have to produce enough volts in the ETH at the same time as keeping the engine working with the hydraulic transmission.

I was thinking more about coaching stock, Mark 2F, Mark 3 and Sleeper stock require ETH for heat, air conditioning and lighting

 

[Richard Scott]

Many classes had air brakes retrofitted so I imagine the Westerns could have been too. ETH might have been more difficult as a generator/alternator would be needed and the control system would have to produce enough volts in the ETH at the same time as keeping the engine working with the hydraulic transmission.

All were dual braked bar 4, I believe.

 

[randyrippley]

Many classes had air brakes retrofitted so I imagine the Westerns could have been too. ETH might have been more difficult as a generator/alternator would be needed and the control system would have to produce enough volts in the ETH at the same time as keeping the engine working with the hydraulic transmission.

Some. if not all, of the Westerns WERE fitted with air brakes.
ETH was a non-starter though: no room in the bodyshell for a generator

 

[marsker]

Getting back on topic, I remember when the deltics were being retired and feeling very sad about it. It had to be remembered though, that they were a small class of locomotives with a high maintenance reqirement. Their raison d etre was haulage of high value services where speed was a selling point. As such services were taken over by HSTs the commercial logic in retaining them vanished. I did, however, feel that there was a case for using them short term on London - Norwich services which were, at that time, being slowed by 15 minutes to take account of electrification works.