Wi-fi on trains

[johnnychips]

I have a smartphone supplied by a network with 4G. I have very often noticed that on the trains I use a lot (Northern, TPE, XC) that when the train tries to connect me to the wi-fi, and indeed the wi-if bars/crescents replace the 4G symbol, I get a message saying that ‘wi-fi is not available’ on the sites I attempt to connect to. I assume it tries to connect me as I have registered and used these companies’ service in the past. The same thing happens with First buses.

So I switch wi-fi off and revert to 4G, which reconnects immediately.

To come to the point, is wi-fi worth bothering about, seeing as it is so inconsistent and 4G so good? This thread was also inspired by a quote from @Watershed , though I’m not sure which company or train he was referring to.

Indeed. I'm surprised they ever introduced WiFi if it was as expensive as they're making out.

Instead I rather suspect the availability of WiFi isn't a dealbreaker for most passengers, and so it's been removed as part of a cost-cutting review.

But again, Covid really is being used as an excuse here.

 

[Watershed]

I have a smartphone supplied by a network with 4G. I have very often noticed that on the trains I use a lot (Northern, TPE, XC) that when the train tries to connect me to the wi-fi, and indeed the wi-if bars/crescents replace the 4G symbol, I get a message saying that ‘wi-fi is not available’ on the sites I attempt to connect to. I assume it tries to connect me as I have registered and used these companies’ service in the past. The same thing happens with First buses.

So I switch wi-fi off and revert to 4G, which reconnects immediately.

To come to the point, is wi-fi worth bothering about, seeing as it is so inconsistent and 4G so good? This thread was also inspired by a quote from @Watershed , though I’m not sure which company or train he was referring to.

That quote was from the thread Companies Using "Because of COVID" As An Excuse For Poor Service, where @kristiang85 stated how the WiFi on his Stagecoach bus had been turned off "due to Covid".

IME, train and bus WiFi invariably tends to be very slow, but it is often still better than mobile data when in the countryside, if you only need a slow but reliable connection. For example to browse text based websites, listen to music or use a virtual desktop.

 

[Undiscovered]

While you may have bars to indicate WiFi signal, that WiFi may not currently be talking to the internet, or may not have sufficient bandwith capacity to give you the service you require.

While some operators have used Covid as an excuse, some have attempted to improve their offering. However, connection and bandwith will still be limiting factors.

 

[Spartacus]

Often you've got to log in with your email every time, quite a pain if you're using a few trains. I've managed to be accidentally logged on to the train next to me once, which has then logged off when it moved off!

 

[Pit_buzzer]

With the increase of cheap unlimited 4g mobile contracts I find its not worth bothering with on train or any other external WiFi.
I reckon the whole WiFi provision on buses and trains has been money wasted, it's been overtaken by technological developments just like the provision of payphones on trains was

 

[mike57]

With the increase of cheap unlimited 4g mobile contracts I find its not worth bothering with on train or any other external WiFi.
I reckon the whole WiFi provision on buses and trains has been money wasted, it's been overtaken by technological developments just like the provision of payphones on trains was

I agree, I have gone for an unlimited plan, its easier, so dont bother turning wi-fi on when I am out and about. The main thing is working chargers/sockets on a long journey. As far as I know railways use the same technology as smartphones with a wi-fi hotspot, just scaled up. Only benefit is that aerials will be better sited if in a weak signal area.

 

[Dai Corner]

I agree, I have gone for an unlimited plan, its easier, so dont bother turning wi-fi on when I am out and about. The main thing is working chargers/sockets on a long journey. As far as I know railways use the same technology as smartphones with a wi-fi hotspot, just scaled up. Only benefit is that aerials will be better sited if in a weak signal area.

In theory they could select the mobile network with the best performance at any given location, or even aggregate two or more but I don't know if this happens in practice.

Now, if they were allowed to utilise the GSM-R infrastructure they could guarantee good connections virtually anywhere on the railway.

(GSM-R is the railways' own mobile network, provided for operational use only).

 

[mavsk]

In theory they could select the mobile network with the best performance at any given location, or even aggregate two or more but I don't know if this happens in practice.

Now, if they were allowed to utilise the GSM-R infrastructure they could guarantee good connections virtually anywhere on the railway.

(GSM-R is the railways' own mobile network, provided for operational use only).

They usually use more than one mobile network for this reason.

GSM-R is 2G technology so wouldn't have anywhere near the bandwidth.

 

[OhNoAPacer]

I used to get a 'connected no Internet' message when trying to connect to both LNWR and Virgin with my old smartphone, don't get it with my new one. I wonder if the OP has tried, if possible, to connect a different brand or model of smartphone.

 

[Dai Corner]

They usually use more than one mobile network for this reason.

GSM-R is 2G technology so wouldn't have anywhere near the bandwidth.

That's interesting. Thanks.

By 'the GSM-R infrastructure' I really meant the masts, aerials and fibre rather than the service.

 

[pdeaves]

I know of one transport provider that encourages staff with 'work' devices to connect to wi-fi rather than 4G where possible. However, that same provider will not allow connection to its own onboard wi-fi as it's an insecure network.

 

[swt_passenger]

That's interesting. Thanks.

By 'the GSM-R infrastructure' I really meant the masts, aerials and fibre rather than the service.

The problem with piggybacking something else for the public use on the GSM(R) infrastructure is that it isn’t usually allowed under their planning approvals. Some local authorities were concerned that once a mast was allowed under operational permitted development rights, then NR would allow normal mobile operators to share the masts with extra equipment, increasing their visibility. So IIRC NR were happy to rule it out to get their masts accepted.

 

[haggishunter]

With the increase of cheap unlimited 4g mobile contracts I find its not worth bothering with on train or any other external WiFi.
I reckon the whole WiFi provision on buses and trains has been money wasted, it's been overtaken by technological developments just like the provision of payphones on trains was

Not really because onboard services tend to use cross network aggregation to some extent - as long as the train or bus system is getting a data signal from one network there will be some internet provision via the WiFi. Depending on specific set up it can also gain from external antennas which can make a big difference vs trying to get a signal inside a metal box.

On a train if there is a shared network bus and more than one router / antenna point then there is also the ability to keep signal in short tunnels / under bridges / cuttings where an individual device would lose signal.

There is also the advantage that anyone can use the WiFi, whereas overseas visitors might be very limited by roaming options / costs for data services on mobile devices.

If there is a potential way to use the likes of StarLink or OneWeb onboard trains, this could be a game changer and eliminate many no-spots and significantly improve bandwidth capacity.

 

[Horizon22]

Wi-Fi on trains will always (well using current tech) be a bit of an issue because of the number of blackspots trains end up travelling through so will naturally be a bit patchy. However your 3G/4G will likely be no better, so you might as well stick to the "free" service. You're also limited by others who may be connected at the same time. The communal free wi-fi networks at stations can be rather slow but in the middle of the night is like having super-fast fibre!

 

[v199629]

For TPE and SWR, my experience is you have to sign in 2 times. First time pressing sign in required from settings. Then go to the companies entertainment page, find the web icon at the top, and sign in again

 

[island]

Usually this will be because the wifi requires you to sign in via a captive portal and your device has not, for whatever reason, popped up a box allowing you to do so.

You would need to open a browser and open any HTTP website (but not a HTTPS website; this will give a certificate error – and as most websites are HTTPS these days, this is a bit of a problem if you’re not in the know). http://captive.apple.com is a good one, and I have it set as a favourite. (If you open it when you have connected properly or are on a network that doesn’t require sign-in, it will just say “Success”.)

 

[londonmidland]

For TPE and SWR, my experience is you have to sign in 2 times. First time pressing sign in required from settings. Then go to the companies entertainment page, find the web icon at the top, and sign in again

It used to be the same for the LNR WiFi. Connect via the settings page, which takes you to the login/connect page. It’d then open your browser and take you to its landing page, where you had to press the WiFi symbol at the top and login again.

Was so long winded and not obvious what you had to do. So anyone connecting to it for the time, anything they search will automatically redirect them to the landing page until they press the WiFi symbol and login again. At this point they’d probably had given up.

Thankfully it’s no longer like this.

 

[Carlisle]

With the increase of cheap unlimited 4g mobile contracts I find its not worth bothering with on train or any other external WiFi.

There’s probably a sizeable number of passengers using I pads & similar Tablets that rely on WIFI

 

[Dougal2345]

With the increase of cheap unlimited 4g mobile contracts I find its not worth bothering with on train or any other external WiFi.

One person's cheap is another person's financial worry...

My estimation is that on-train WiFi only works about half the time - the rest you can't connect for one reason or another.

Recently on SWR they removed the link with the WiFi symbol from inamongst the TV programmes they want you to watch, and the alternative link in the (from memory) top corner of the page has started taking you to their ticket booking page rather than the log in page... So internet access, at least as far as I could see, was impossible...

It would be nice if the various systems across all TOCs could be unified... Will "GBR" make that more likely?

In fact is there any point in making people register and log in at all? If people are accessing questionable material they're just going to use a fake email address...

I'd certainly like it if WiFi allowed you to access the national rail site without having to log in, so you can quickly see, for example, what platform you're going to have to head for at your next change.

 

[island]

One person's cheap is another person's financial worry...

My estimation is that on-train WiFi only works about half the time - the rest you can't connect for one reason or another.

I mainly use Southeastern and would rate it at 90%+ reliability.

Recently on SWR they removed the link with the WiFi symbol from inamongst the TV programmes they want you to watch, and the alternative link in the (from memory) top corner of the page has started taking you to their ticket booking page rather than the log in page... So internet access, at least as far as I could see, was impossible...

It would be nice if the various systems across all TOCs could be unified... Will "GBR" make that more likely?

We can but hope…

In fact is there any point in making people register and log in at all? If people are accessing questionable material they're just going to use a fake email address...

You don‘t need an email on Southeastern. Those TOCs requiring one are probably just trying to harvest data for marketing.

I'd certainly like it if WiFi allowed you to access the national rail site without having to log in, so you can quickly see, for example, what platform you're going to have to head for at your next change.

Southeastern does this.

 

[rf_ioliver]

In theory they could select the mobile network with the best performance at any given location, or even aggregate two or more but I don't know if this happens in practice.

Now, if they were allowed to utilise the GSM-R infrastructure they could guarantee good connections virtually anywhere on the railway.

(GSM-R is the railways' own mobile network, provided for operational use only).

GSM-R has its own frequency allocation to which "normal" consumer devices have no access. One of the major issues with GSM-R now is that this band is often swamped by interference from much higher powered base stations on nearby channels. In order to provide better service operators add more base stations and increease the power levels to do so - this in turn causes interference all over the spectrum unless properly managed.

Most of these problems are solved by LTE-R (4G) and 5G offers a completely different set of solutions to applications such as railways.

 

[jfollows]

With the increase of cheap unlimited 4g mobile contracts I find its not worth bothering with on train or any other external WiFi.
I reckon the whole WiFi provision on buses and trains has been money wasted, it's been overtaken by technological developments just like the provision of payphones on trains was

I also agree, I think it's yesterday's solution for yesterday's problem.
When wifi on trains first came along it was "good" in that it wasn't good - it was pretty terrible - but it was better than the alternative, which was essentially nothing.
Today I choose my carrier because of its coverage, and I've found that EE is good on the WCML between London and Manchester, which covers most of my train travel, and also covers me at home. I've had bad experience with other networks.
But today I find it easier and inexpensive to use my own coverage on most train journeys, no need to sign in and all that stuff, and the coverage is good and cheap.
Personally I use Plusnet, which uses EE, and a reasonable data allowance which I didn't come near to exceeding even before Covid, and this costs me £8/month.
Should trains provide wifi as standard today? Probably. But I don't see myself using it much, or treating it as a positive selling point any more.

 

[DelW]

I've long since given up even trying to use SWT/R's wi-fi, my phone connects each time but fails to give me any internet access ... maybe it's the log-in issues mentioned above. On the other hand, I've used GWR and TfW wi-fi with no problems at all.

There’s probably a sizeable number of passengers using I pads & similar Tablets that rely on WIFI

If they have a phone with a data connection, it's quite straightforward to set that up as a wi-fi hotspot and link the tablet to that (it must be easy, even I've managed it in the past!).

 

[ainsworth74]

Can't remember the last time I actually used wi-fi on the train. Even on Three (which have a terrible reputation but I've had very few issues with) I find that it's usually more reliable and faster than what I can get out of a train. I did play with the Azuma wi-fi when they were new just to see and I will say that it did seem reasonable. But my own phones data was still better overall.

There’s probably a sizeable number of passengers using I pads & similar Tablets that rely on WIFI

I just tether my Chromebook from my phone and use my phones mobile data.

 

[zero]

I have the impression that wifi uses less battery than mobile data, though don't know if this is really true. When wifi is available, I turn my phone to airplane mode so that may potentially save battery. (Sometimes I can't be bothered to get out the wire ± plug to charge my phone, and that's if a working socket is available.)

I use PAYG for my phones, so any saving is better than none. But if the wifi is too convoluted to access I will pay for data if I want to get online; I don't care that much about the cost as I still spend less than £2 per month on average. I don't limit my online activities to save costs except that I will save any videos I want to watch for when I have wifi.

I don't do anything questionable on public wifi but I still give a disposable email, preferably one which requires the fewest number of characters to type so that I can pass through the captive portal more quickly.

The TPE system is just about at the limit of what I can tolerate to log in.

As I prefer to use my own DNS providers, I find I need to accept the default ones in order to pass the captive portal.

 

[Alex365Dash]

For TPE and SWR, my experience is you have to sign in 2 times. First time pressing sign in required from settings. Then go to the companies entertainment page, find the web icon at the top, and sign in again

For SWR, I just get round this by going straight to http://southwesternrailway.on.icomera.com, which is where you get redirected anyway when you press the web icon.

Generally, I also echo island's advice which has been really useful for connecting to captive portals:

You would need to open a browser and open any HTTP website (but not a HTTPS website; this will give a certificate error – and as most websites are HTTPS these days, this is a bit of a problem if you’re not in the know). http://captive.apple.com is a good one, and I have it set as a favourite. (If you open it when you have connected properly or are on a network that doesn’t require sign-in, it will just say “Success”.)

 

[jfollows]

Can't remember the last time I actually used wi-fi on the train. Even on Three (which have a terrible reputation but I've had very few issues with) I find that it's usually more reliable and faster than what I can get out of a train. I did play with the Azuma wi-fi when they were new just to see and I will say that it did seem reasonable. But my own phones data was still better overall.


I just tether my Chromebook from my phone and use my phones mobile data.

Also agreed - I tend to travel with an iPad which is good to use on the train, last time I used it via my phone which was in the pocket of my jacket on the luggage rack over my head. On a train I don't want to use a mobile phone to make/receive calls because I simply don't want to share my conversations with others in the carriage, and nowadays I don't have anyone important enough who's going to ring me and be upset with me if I don't answer.

 

[choochoochoo]

I don't like using, and in doing so, degrading, my phone battery to get 4g/5g tethered to my tablet. So free wifi is good for me.

 

[Skie]

If there is a potential way to use the likes of StarLink or OneWeb onboard trains, this could be a game changer and eliminate many no-spots and significantly improve bandwidth capacity.

Merseyrail/Merseytravel/Network Rail/Panasonic are in the process of installing trackside base-stations which provide an uplink to each train of around 100mbps. Will mean CCTV, PIS and loading info will all be updated in real time at control, but also has spare capacity for passengers. It covers the entire Merseyrail network, so passengers will have Wi-Fi even in the extensive tunnel sections when the 777's eventually roll out. They've built an overprovisioned fibre backbone to support the network and have plans to lease unused capacity to enable locations near to the railway to benefit from it.

https://www.radwin.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Rail-_-Metro-brochure-ENG-W.pdf - Bit of bunf on the mast/receivers

 

[James H]

I find the Icomera wifi on GTR and Southeastern very reliable.

The only downside is the fact that on Thameslink you never know whether your Class 700 will be one of those fitted with wifi.

I agree SWR's convoluted double log in process to reach the wifi is annoying.