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Without additional funding from government there is a real risk to the survival of Eurostar

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Sniffingmoose

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So Eurostar are struggling along with most of the travel sector. Should Eurostar be saved as it has lower carbon emissions than flying? But from a busniess point of vew Eurostar is 55% owned by French state rail firm SNCF and I believe the goverment sold its stake in the business to private companies for £757m in 2015, so should the goverment still bail it out?

May be bail it out if the goverment get our stake back in Eurostar otherwise it will look like the goverment Socialise the losses and privatise the gains. Not a good look when there are many desperate cases for funding in aound the UK at the moment.

See the article on BBC News site for the details
A group of London business leaders has written to the government calling for financial support for the struggling rail firm Eurostar.
In a letter to the Treasury and Department for Transport, they urge "swift action to safeguard its future".
Bosses of firms such as Fortnum & Mason signed the letter asking for access to government loans and business rates relief "at the very least".
The government says it is "working closely" with Eurostar.
The cross-Channel rail company is threatened by a large drop in passenger numbers due to coronavirus-related travel restrictions.
It reported in November that passenger numbers had been down 95% since March 2020.
What do you all think?
 
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StephenHunter

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I think a lot of the demand will come back quickly once restrictions are ended - you will see a bumper year for many services. But a small bailout would be the right thing to do.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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As a railway enthusiast and an advocate of less carbon forms of transport absolutely but as govt have done little to help aviation I suspect not. Also with Brexit just happening it will be anathema for the govt to be seen to be bailing out an EU operation. Lets hope not but this lot are really so narrow minded I fear they wont help. That said this was a thriving operation so someone will pick it up cheap if its forced to administration so it won't be lost.
 

StephenHunter

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Now I'm thinking that ÖBB might want it as part of their plan to conquer European railways. Or DB. Make it part of the TEE 2.0 network.
 

STINT47

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Has the French goverment put any funds in? If not I cannot see how our goverment can without creating some controversy.
 

Goldfish62

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Given that Eurostar has an 80% market share between London and Paris/Brussels it wouldn't be a good look effectively handing this on a plate to the airlines.

There's also the prospect that SE High Speed and freight might not survive without Eurostar due to the burden of having to bear the increased access charges.

Therefore worst case scenario is a significant increase in short-haul flights and HS1 closed. Not a good look.
 

Bletchleyite

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It's a French owned company. France can fund it.

If it fails, a new operator could be set up to replace it. Perhaps it would have the bonus of being less arrogant at times?
 

LeeLivery

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ÖBB buying Eurostar would be the biggest surprise since Siemens won the tube contract.

It's the European Year of Rail and the UK is holding COP 2021. Allowing Eurostar to collapse would be rather embarrassing and politically unviable in London and Kent, especially when we're talking about net emissions and continuing to be a European nation after Brexit.

The UK gov along with the French, Belgians, and Dutch should have a discussion over support. If Thalys is still to be merged (makes sense), then the Germans should be in that discussion too. If that means the UK and DB buying a stake, then so be it. It'd be in the interests of London, Paris, Brussels, Amsterdam and Köln to get tourism to be as high as possible after the pandemic. Make it an essential part of tourist/business promotion between countries.
 

LeeLivery

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Yes, to be fair, to expand on the above a UK bailout would have to be in the form of purchasing a stake, not just throwing money at it, as per the banking bailouts.

Indeed, just throwing money at it would be wrong.

Selling it off was always a questionable decision based on ideology rather than financial sense.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Any "bail-out" of Eurostar would be challenged by the airlines.
Apart from commercial loans, the limit of gov support has so far been furlough and some deferment of taxes, which presumably is also available to ES.
Cross-border ownership makes things complex, not to mention Brexit, but I should think there is a common interest in supporting a minimal service through the pandemic.
The full service airlines have freight to contribute to costs, something ES and the LCC airlines don't.
Easyjet threw the towel in last spring but seem to be continuing at a skeleton level for now, without extra gov support.
The new virtual ban on non-essential travel starting today has yet to work its way through the travel industry.
How it affects Eurotunnel is complicated.
The railway (presumably DfT for the UK) agreed to take half the capacity of the tunnel.
Eurotunnel itself will be healthy enough with its freight shuttle volumes, but the railway half must be at great risk or cost to somebody at the moment.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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If the worst case scenario materialises and we see Eurostar collapse, is that it for cross-channel rail services or will a new operator be created to take over?
 

JonathanP

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It won't be allowed to collapse. The airlines are in no position to complain, most of the flag carriers have already been bailed out already by their respective governments. The only question is what conditions it would have at accept in return. Perhaps UK.Gov will get part ownership again!
 

Goldfish62

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If the worst case scenario materialises and we see Eurostar collapse, is that it for cross-channel rail services or will a new operator be created to take over?
The usual procedure is for the administrator to try to find a buyer. Failing that the company is wound up.
 

bluenoxid

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Do Eurostar own their trains or are they leased?

I would be supportive of support to the infrastructure as per the recent airports announcement.
 

Alfonso

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Both BA and easyJet have had £2 billion in soft loans from HM government. I doubt Eurostar would be allowed to go under, but if it did I'm sure someone would buy the assets and rights to run something similar. IAG (parent of BA) and Lufthansa probably have the deepest pockets at the moment.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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I suspect part of the burden on ES reducing costs currently is access charges on HS1 which is owned by a private equity group and the fixed charges won't be avoidable. The govt should be leaning on them to take a hit as they've done in several other parts of the economy. For instance in commercial property govt interventions have resulted in many landlords realising the world has changed and taking a hit on particularly in the retail and hospitality space by giving tenants rent free periods as well as reducing rents over the longer term.

Ultimately this was a viable operation so it would be absurd with all our intents on climate change as well as that of Europe to let it totally fail. High Speed Rail is the only response to short to medium distance air travel which has to be reduced unless they miraculously come up with a zero carbon solution.
 

alex397

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Perhaps if they changed their livery to a Union Jack, and the name to ‘Sovereignty Express’, our government would support them!

Whatever the outcome of this, I hope there won’t be major cutbacks in the future, such as permanent closures of Ebbsfleet or Ashford.
 

MarcVD

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Concentration on the ’core network’ is indeed a likely scenario. There is a high probability that the trains to the Alps and the Mediterranean will never come back, and the projected operation to Bordeaux will never come to fruition. Abandoning Ebbsfleet, Ashford, and Calais is also a clear possibility. The 3 capitals service, with its extension to A’dam and the Lille hub for the connections with the french TGV network, will likely survive. Such a reduction in operations would probably allow E* to ditch all remaining Alsthom sets and keep the Siemens ones only.
 

Ianno87

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Concentration on the ’core network’ is indeed a likely scenario. There is a high probability that the trains to the Alps and the Mediterranean will never come back, and the projected operation to Bordeaux will never come to fruition. Abandoning Ebbsfleet, Ashford, and Calais is also a clear possibility. The 3 capitals service, with its extension to A’dam and the Lille hub for the connections with the french TGV network, will likely survive. Such a reduction in operations would probably allow E* to ditch all remaining Alsthom sets and keep the Siemens ones only.

I worked out on a previous thread that keeping the 374s and ditching the remaining 373s pretty much covers a credible three capitals service, plus Amsterdam, plus a Disney or a ski train.
 

Bletchleyite

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I worked out on a previous thread that keeping the 374s and ditching the remaining 373s pretty much covers a credible three capitals service, plus Amsterdam, plus a Disney or a ski train.

Presumably if things did pick up enough, they could go back to Herr Siemens and grab a few more of the same - the ICE (Velaro) is still a current thing.
 

alex397

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Concentration on the ’core network’ is indeed a likely scenario. There is a high probability that the trains to the Alps and the Mediterranean will never come back, and the projected operation to Bordeaux will never come to fruition. Abandoning Ebbsfleet, Ashford, and Calais is also a clear possibility. The 3 capitals service, with its extension to A’dam and the Lille hub for the connections with the french TGV network, will likely survive. Such a reduction in operations would probably allow E* to ditch all remaining Alsthom sets and keep the Siemens ones only.
I can certainly see this being a probable scenario and it would make sense for them to take this approach, but I really hope you’re wrong.

Im just so glad I made the most of using Ashford when I did, as well as taking the Marseille train from there (a direct train from Kent to the Mediterranean was a bizarre but wonderful trip). It will be a sad day for me if Ashford goes. It did have fairly good passenger levels from there, but most people in Kent I tell about it are surprised you can get a Eurostar from Ashford, which perhaps shows it isn’t well publicised (and it often gets confused with the Eurotunnel too).

I’m talking about Ashford almost as if it is definitely going. I am optimistic that it will reopen, but also realistic that it might not.
 

popeter45

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if the UK gov bailed out ES i wonder what strings would be attached?
more Ebbsfleet and Ashford stops?
scaling back of south of paris journeys (e.g. end of ski train)?
potential adding to whatever replaces the franchise system?
 

Bletchleyite

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if the UK gov bailed out ES i wonder what strings would be attached?

Can't see that any would. It would I expect involve taking a stake, though. Certainly I'd oppose them simply throwing money at a French company.

more Ebbsfleet and Ashford stops?

I would expect Ashford to close, TBH, though I doubt it would be a condition by the Government.

scaling back of south of paris journeys (e.g. end of ski train)?
potential adding to whatever replaces the franchise system?

Doubt it.
 

popeter45

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Presumably if things did pick up enough, they could go back to Herr Siemens and grab a few more of the same - the ICE (Velaro) is still a current thing.
as i said in the 373 thread if possible may be better to go for doubled up 8 car varients instead of more custom 16 car units
lets for more efficent use of UK paths (e.g same train serves both paris and brussels at times of less demand) and would be easier to sell/lease out IZY style
 

Astro_Orbiter

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It seems to me that for the last 3 or so months I've seen article after article about Eurostar being on the brink and nobody wanting to help. I'm hopeful it won't be allowed to go under, but at this rate it seems to me like a distinct possibility?
 

HSTEd

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I'm not sure why the British taxpayer should pour money into a privately owned service that exists pretty much only to help comparatively rich people go on city breaks abroad.

If it goes bust, so be it. If the HS1 concessionaire goes bust, so be it.
We already have the tools to keep the infrastructure operational without significant disruption. The concession can be terminated if the concessionaire goes into administration

Eurostar's wellbeing ceased to be my problem when the government sold its share
 
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