WMTrains livery and station branding

[greatvoyager]

Are the 139s die for refurbishment?

 

[birchesgreen]

172 338 has gone to Ilford.

 

[py_megapixel]

East Midlands Railway.

Heading to East Midlands Railway. Centre car is heading to CrossCountry.

Thanks

 

[59CosG95]

172 338 has gone to Ilford.

172 331 also returned north from Ilford following completion of its refurb.

 

[sprinterguy]

350 101 has got LNWR livery...

I don't know if this is something that's been picked up previously, but 350101 also has discrete "I'm a Double Shift Train" branding on the driving car body sides, explaining that the unit is also used in the West Midlands. There's nothing quite like brand clarity...

 

[221101 Voyager]

I don't know if this is something that's been picked up previously, but 350101 also has discrete "I'm a Double Shift Train" branding on the driving car body sides, explaining that the unit is also used in the West Midlands. There's nothing quite like brand clarity...

Yes I and someone else has bought this up previously. I'm getting a list of all these names and will publish one at some point soon.

 

[sprinterguy]

Yes I and someone else has bought this up previously. I'm getting a list of all these names and will publish one at some point soon.

Ah fair play: I went back a couple of pages to see if anything had been mentioned recently, but admit that I haven't been following the progress of this and related WMT threads closely.

 

[DavidGrain]

I can't remember if I have mentioned it. I know I have mentioned it on Facebook. The LNR 350s also work local services in the West Midlands on behalf of WMR because WMR do not have any 350s. This is on the Wolverhampton- Birmingham-Walsall and the Birmingham-Coventry services. The timetable for the Rugeley line service shows alternating WMR and LNR services but they are in fact all worked by LNR 350s. The WMR Rugley services run to Birmingham International then suddenly become LNR services to Liverpool but the layover time at International does not allow enough time to change the livery. On the other hand the LNR Rugeley services go to Euston so they are LNR services all the way although calling at some local stations.

I hope this explains how West Midland Trains are attempting to comply with their franchise agreement to separate the two brands.

 

[Energy]

Is the double branding temporary? I'm assuming WMR will try to use only their 730s when they arrive so the 350s only work on LNWR.

 

[DavidGrain]

Are the 139s die for refurbishment?

The 139s are not WMR stock, that is a mini franchise operated by Pre Metro Operations Ltd, the smallest TOC in the country. Apart from any running repairs to seat covers, it is difficult to see what refurbishment can be done. With a journey time of 4 minutes there is no time to recharge your battery and by the time you have logged on to WIFI you will have reached your destination and accessible toilets will take up half the train.

 

[Energy]

The 139s are not WMR stock, that is a mini franchise operated by Pre Metro Operations Ltd, the smallest TOC in the country. Apart from any running repairs to seat covers, it is difficult to see what refurbishment can be done. With a journey time of 4 minutes there is no time to recharge your battery and by the time you have logged on to WIFI you will have reached your destination and accessible toilets will take up half the train.

I would imagine that at some point they will change them into WMR seat covers, they have already got the new livery.

 

[greatvoyager]

The 139s are not WMR stock, that is a mini franchise operated by Pre Metro Operations Ltd, the smallest TOC in the country. Apart from any running repairs to seat covers, it is difficult to see what refurbishment can be done. With a journey time of 4 minutes there is no time to recharge your battery and by the time you have logged on to WIFI you will have reached your destination and accessible toilets will take up half the train.

That makes sense.

I would imagine that at some point they will change them into WMR seat covers, they have already got the new livery.

I guess it depends if they see any need.

 

[FLIRTfan18]

The 139s are not WMR stock, that is a mini franchise operated by Pre Metro Operations Ltd, the smallest TOC in the country. Apart from any running repairs to seat covers, it is difficult to see what refurbishment can be done. With a journey time of 4 minutes there is no time to recharge your battery and by the time you have logged on to WIFI you will have reached your destination and accessible toilets will take up half the train.

So are they exempt from PRM in some way?

 

[OTRail]

So are they exempt from PRM in some way?

I think they already have a PIS as they were built back in 2009, but they don’t need a toilet as it’s a small branch line.

 

[Spirit555]

Have been advised today that 170632 has been disbanded and renumbered 170532. Middle car 56632 is already at Bristol Barton Hill.

Mark

 

[DavidGrain]

Is the double branding temporary? I'm assuming WMR will try to use only their 730s when they arrive so the 350s only work on LNWR.

That is something that we shall have to see when the 730s arrive as both WMR and LNR will be getting 730s to replace the 323s and the 350s but in different formations
730/0 36 3 car units which I expect will normally operate as 2 units coupled together for the Cross City line (90mph)
730/1 29 5 car units for London outer suburban services (110mph)
730/2 16 5 car units for long distance services (110mph)
So I would expect the 730/2s will continue to work West Midlands locals so may have double branding

The first of the 3 car units is currently on test in Europe. I hope that the end doors can concertina back from this view as otherwise the driver is going to be blindsided. I note that this livery does not have the WM hatching on the front end.

 

[Domh245]

730/2 16 5 car units for long distance services (110mph)
So I would expect the 730/2s will continue to work West Midlands locals so may have double branding

The first of the 3 car units is current on test in Europe. I hope that the end doors can concertina back from this view as otherwise the driver is going to be blindsided. I note that this livery does not have the WM hatching on the front end.

The /2s are effectively for Crewe and Liverpool services, which are both firmly LNWR services, so they shouldn't need to have any double branding?

The gangway doesn't concertina, the view is (theoretically) no worse than any other gangwayed stock, including the 350s. It doesn't have the hatching because that's a vinyl which will be applied before delivery to WMR - it isn't needed for the testing they're doing, so they haven't applied it yet

 

[physics34]

I don't know if this is something that's been picked up previously, but 350101 also has discrete "I'm a Double Shift Train" branding on the driving car body sides, explaining that the unit is also used in the West Midlands. There's nothing quite like brand clarity...

Beyond silly now isnt it.

Its crying out for there to be two or three standard liveries for the whole country. Yes its dull for enthusiasts but its so much common sense. Got the silly situation of red 707s going to SE soon, which will need a repaint/vinyling of some sort (bring back blue and grey he screams)

 

[samuelmorris]

Beyond silly now isnt it.

Its crying out for there to be two or three standard liveries for the whole country. Yes its dull for enthusiasts but its so much common sense. Got the silly situation of red 707s going to SE soon, which will need a repaint/vinyling of some sort (bring back blue and grey he screams)

NSE Javelin - Alternative Railways - Galleries - RMweb | British rail, Uk rail, Visit london

Jul 20, 2019 - This image is based on a photograph by Paul Burkitt-Gray. All rights to the original and modified images are reserved. As suggested by Captain Electra, what a Javelin might have look liked if Network Southeast had survived to run the domestic services on HS1.

www.pinterest.co.uk

comes to mind...

Theoretically operators (or better, certain regions) having distinct liveries isn't an issue, it does help distinguish different services that may use similar stock. Having multiple, region-branded liveries within the same operator always goes wrong though and was a daft idea in my opinion - look at how often buses branded with a particular route end up working other routes. Granted, that's easier to happen for road transport where there aren't route/traction signing issues to deal with but I can still see it being an issue at WMR - evidently it's starting to become one already.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Beyond silly now isnt it.

What was silly was using two brands for West Midlands Trains once the idea of actually splitting the franchises had been binned. The whole thing should have been branded "West Midlands Trains", with a "variant livery" per the old Regional Railways approach (and London Midland) for units that would never be used on non-PTE services.

 

[DavidGrain]

What was silly was using two brands for West Midlands Trains once the idea of actually splitting the franchises had been binned. The whole thing should have been branded "West Midlands Trains", with a "variant livery" per the old Regional Railways approach (and London Midland) for units that would never be used on non-PTE services.

Has the splitting of the brands been binned? I had not heard that. However it was not working anyway and I don't see how it was going to work. We will have to wait to see what the new arrangements mean with franchises going.

 

[the sniper]

Is the double branding temporary? I'm assuming WMR will try to use only their 730s when they arrive so the 350s only work on LNWR.

Isn't there talk of retaining the few 323s that Northern aren't having? There should be enough for Walsall - Wolverhampton and the Chase to wherever they want them to go, BHI or maybe Crewe via Stoke, as per the original WMR map...

Less trains per hour running now on the Cross City though, so some WMR 730 will be free if things stay that way, which they probably should for the purposes of having a more workable timetable.

What was silly was using two brands for West Midlands Trains once the idea of actually splitting the franchises had been binned.

Don't the terms of the franchise require them to be ready that eventuality by the end of this franchise, so at least would have been an obligation until March/Covid/EMAs were a thing?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Don't the terms of the franchise require them to be ready that eventuality by the end of this franchise, so at least would have been an obligation until March/Covid/EMAs were a thing?

Correct. But it's still silly - that's just about whose fault it is!

 

[physics34]

NSE Javelin - Alternative Railways - Galleries - RMweb | British rail, Uk rail, Visit london

Jul 20, 2019 - This image is based on a photograph by Paul Burkitt-Gray. All rights to the original and modified images are reserved. As suggested by Captain Electra, what a Javelin might have look liked if Network Southeast had survived to run the domestic services on HS1.

www.pinterest.co.uk

comes to mind...

love those pics lol

 

[Energy]

Isn't there talk of retaining the few 323s that Northern aren't having? There should be enough for Walsall - Wolverhampton and the Chase to wherever they want them to go, BHI or maybe Crewe via Stoke, as per the original WMR map...

Less trains per hour running now on the Cross City though, so some WMR 730 will be free if things stay that way, which they probably should for the purposes of having a more workable timetable.

Its been a rumour but I see it unlikely, they are already taking 36 730s to replace 26 323s, thats already 10 units extra so I doubt they will need the 9 323s, if they did they would probably order more 730s.

On the branding (this is a branding thread after all), the idea was that WMR and LNWR would be eventually split with TfWM taking over control of WMR. For now they decided on having both brands but confusingly operated by the same company, however Abellio decided instead of having them be 2 completely seperate brands with the only similarity being the legal name of the company behind them, they decided to put "operated by West Midlands Trains" stickers on a lot of the branding, adding a third brand which people don't really understand the point of, it would make more sense to just have "operated by Abellio".

 

[Bletchleyite]

There was originally another brand - "wmtraiiins" (not actually 3 Is, but there were diamonds above the I and the letters either side). That got dropped.

 

[Energy]

There was originally another brand - "wmtraiiins" (not actually 3 Is, but there were diamonds above the I and the letters either side). That got dropped.

It seems to be the same brand as West Midlands Trains, the Abellio West Midlands (easiest name) branding is the most confusing on the network and it isn't uncommon to see people confused by it. West Midlands Trains is just too similar to West Midlands Railway, it is easy to say the wrong one so they should have dropped West Midlands Trains branding completely and call the company which runs it Abellio Rail West Midlands (Abellio do operate buses, just not in the west midlands), this is only for legal purposes and shouldn't be used in customer facing branding. The individual brands aren't small, they have ~90 trains each so I don't think they will need to share customer service staff, etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not just Abellio, though. A bit like the previous incarnation of TPE, there's more investors - JR East (they must be pretty close to hara kiri if they knew what it was like) and Mitsui.

 

[Energy]

It's not just Abellio, though. A bit like the previous incarnation of TPE, there's more investors - JR East (they must be pretty close to hara kiri if they knew what it was like) and Mitsui.

Greater Anglia still has Abellio Greater Anglia as its legal name despite being 40% Mitsui, this was sold later on though. What was FTPE called legally? In public branding Keolis didn't seem to really care that it was heavily First branded with almost no Keolis branding so I don't think they were too fussed. The other shareholders in West Midlands only have 15% each which is a small amount.

 

[OTRail]

Greater Anglia still has Abellio Greater Anglia as its legal name despite being 40% Mitsui, this was sold later on though. What was FTPE called legally? In public branding Keolis didn't seem to really care that it was heavily First branded with almost no Keolis branding so I don't think they were too fussed. The other shareholders in West Midlands only have 15% each which is a small amount.

Legally FTPE was called First Keolis Transpennine Express, but then again unlike Greater Anglia First and Keolis tendered together at the time.

Anyways back on to WMT - it would have been a lot easier regardless of the TFWM takeover to include a universal brand name like London Midland in my opinion...