Would this be allowed in the UK?

[Scott M]

Seen this video and it got me wondering: would a manoeuvre like this be allowed in the UK, or would sending trains as close as this to a head-on/side-swipe be forbidden in case of points failure?

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Reddit Post - showing 3 trains on 4 lines. Two trains on line 2 are heading towards a head-on collision, until they turn away from each other at the last possible set of points, which appears to leave only meters from a head-on. Had one set of points failed, there wouldn’t have been enough time to brake to avoid a head-on collision. Additionally, when one of the trains moves from line 2 to line 3, there is a train on line 4, giving the appearance it is going to crash into the train on line 4 until it settles on line 3.

 

[Spartacus]

In some areas, yes, in some areas no, modern flank protection and overlaps tend to rule it out, though in this case simplification of track layouts would probably do that on it's own!

 

[Gloster]

Unless standards have changed, why not? The interlocking prevents conflicting routes (that would lead to a collision) being set and track geometry means that trains can pass each other safely. There will be some places where a train won’t be allowed up to a particular signal if flank protection isn’t possible and an overrun could lead it into the path of another, but here all trains have a safe route through the junction.

 

[LAX54]

In some areas, yes, in some areas no, modern flank protection and overlaps tend to rule it out, though in this case simplification of track layouts would probably do that on it's own!

But it does seem a fairly straigtforward set up, all the protection is there, if there was a points failure, you would not be able to make the moves anyway !
Head on..no chance in reality,
At Ipswich you can have a train run up the middle road towards a red, and the driver can see a train coming out of the tunnel a few feet away running 'down the up line' into Platform 2.

 

[dan4291]

I've experienced this before, it is a bit unnerving from a drivers point of view seeing a train coming straight towards you, even though obviously we were taking different routes!

 

[whoosh]

When I signed Bedford, it used to happen every day!

Departing Bedford platform 3 towards London, round the curve, over the river, under a bridge, ooh there's a train coming towards me! Over I go towards the up fast, and it heads over to be routed towards platform one.

But it does seem a fairly straigtforward set up, all the protection is there, if there was a points failure, you would not be able to make the moves anyway !

Yes, signals would stay at danger if you couldn't get a safe route set.

 

[357]

Happens every day on my route.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Isn't this just a slightly more aesthetic version of 2 trains passing at a junction, where if the points were set incorrectly one would plough into the other.

An example of what I mean would be a Manchester bound and a Preston bound (ex Manchester) train passing at Euxton Junction.

 

[357]

where if the points were set incorrectly one would plough into the other.

Thankfully there is lots of protection against that happening.

OP, the signaller can't set conflicting routes. And signals will not clear until the points are proven to be in the correct position. If any of the points move away from where they should be, signals will revert to danger/red aspects.

 

[Clip]

That video appears to be in reverse if you look at the lights on the end of the trains

 

[DelW]

The particular geometry at this location makes it look dramatic, but in principle it's no different from three trains passing each other on a four track line with facing crossovers.

I think similar situations must occur many times a day at e.g. the approaches to Waterloo.

 

[Bald Rick]

Seen this video and it got me wondering: would a manoeuvre like this be allowed in the UK, or would sending trains as close as this to a head-on/side-swipe be forbidden in case of points failure?

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happens every morning at London Bridge, at a closing speed of 100mph.

 

[Mattyblob]

Happens just outside of Purley when a train's coming into platform 6 and out of platform 5. Your bowels drop the first time you do it!

 

[Scott M]

Thankfully there is lots of protection against that happening.

OP, the signaller can't set conflicting routes. And signals will not clear until the points are proven to be in the correct position. If any of the points move away from where they should be, signals will revert to danger/red aspects.

As a driver, do you have complete faith in the system and continue at line speed, or do human instincts cause you to dip off the throttle just in case?

 

[Bertie the bus]

Thankfully there is lots of protection against that happening.

I'm aware of that, I'm just pointing out that video isn't a particularly special scenario that would be banned here. It looks good but technically isn't anything much different to what happens in many places.

 

[swt_passenger]

I remember a YouTube video a few years back about a perfectly routine same direction parallel move at Eastleigh, IIRC it was a down freight from P2 to the down main, and a simultaneous loco move from P3 towards the works. Filmed from the Campbell Rd bridge this non-event got described as a dangerous near miss when the latter loco unexpectedly stopped for some unknown reason.

 

[357]

As a driver, do you have complete faith in the system and continue at line speed, or do human instincts cause you to dip off the throttle just in case?

I don't - but I do check the points for myself and the other train to ensure they are set correctly!

 

[Flange Squeal]

Happens regularly just east of the old Eurostar flyover at Queenstown Road. Trains on the 'Up Windsor' from Clapham towards London Waterloo pass over a 45mph crossover, while trains from London Waterloo heading towards Clapham Junction along the 'Down Windsor Fast' head straight towards them in a similar manner before also passing over a 45mph crossover as the Down Windsor Fast becomes the Up Windsor at this point. If signalling wasn't to be trusted, then you'd have to constantly worry about whether signals behind any train had actually gone red to prevent rear end collisions etc - you'd never travel on a train again!

Using a screenshot of the 30m 34s point in this video:

 

[Mintona]

As a driver, do you have complete faith in the system and continue at line speed, or do human instincts cause you to dip off the throttle just in case?

If you don’t have complete faith in the signalling system, you probably shouldn’t be a driver. Your nerves would be all over the place.

 

[nicolaboo]

I've seen this as passing trains leave/arrive Meadowhall, having come from the Barnsley platforms, as they change lines coming onto the straight section back to Sheffield.

 

[sw1ller]

There’s a very close one at Birmingham new street. One into P1, one out of P3. Arena tunnel end. Nice and slow though so you have plenty of time to check points. We also have it at Saltney junction too with a closing speed of 100mph. And then the same at Acton grange junction too. That’s just 3, I’m sure it happens in many, many places. I wonder what the fastest closing speed one is??

 

[Jonny]

Happens regularly just east of the old Eurostar flyover at Queenstown Road. Trains on the 'Up Windsor' from Clapham towards London Waterloo pass over a 45mph crossover, while trains from London Waterloo heading towards Clapham Junction along the 'Down Windsor Fast' head straight towards them in a similar manner before also passing over a 45mph crossover as the Down Windsor Fast becomes the Up Windsor at this point. If signalling wasn't to be trusted, then you'd have to constantly worry about whether signals behind any train had actually gone red to prevent rear end collisions etc - you'd never travel on a train again!

Using a screenshot of the 30m 34s point in this video:

View attachment 116009

As long as the clearances are checked in advance (using the swept path method) and the interlocking is working properly before the signals are released with adequate overlaps, there is no reason why one cannot to have such an arrangement.

 

[Egg Centric]

You guys checking points - is there really any point? If it’s anything like in the video from @Flange Squeal theres nowt you can do anyway. May as well be blissfully unaware another second or two..

 

[357]

You guys checking points - is there really any point? If it’s anything like in the video from @Flange Squeal theres nowt you can do anyway. May as well be blissfully unaware another second or two..

Absolutely no point whatsoever - just a natural reaction !

 

[sw1ller]

You guys checking points - is there really any point? If it’s anything like in the video from @Flange Squeal theres nowt you can do anyway. May as well be blissfully unaware another second or two..

Frodsham junction once switched when a driver approached. Luckily he was taking the 20mph curve and not the 75mph mainline. When I’m driving the 75mph mainline I check the points. Massively pointless as you say but I still check.

 

[GB]

You guys checking points - is there really any point? If it’s anything like in the video from @Flange Squeal theres nowt you can do anyway. May as well be blissfully unaware another second or two..

Absolutely no point whatsoever - just a natural reaction !

Depends on the situation. The Waterloo and Cardiff incidents, the respective drivers saw the points were not laid correctly and took mitigating action to lessen the potential result. Now whether they were specially looking out at the points or just a happy coincidence I don't know.

 

[mmh]

happens every morning at London Bridge, at a closing speed of 100mph.

50mph through London Bridge, by two trains? Which ones do this?

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Happens all day every day at Tyseley too. Trains heading to/from Solihull crossing onto/off of the Snow Hill lines. You'd probably only need to hang around there for 20-30 minutes to see it.

 

[Efini92]

Frodsham junction once switched when a driver approached. Luckily he was taking the 20mph curve and not the 75mph mainline. When I’m driving the 75mph mainline I check the points. Massively pointless as you say but I still check.

Is that an old railway myth? It wouldn’t be possible to move the points in front of the train.

 

[Ken H]

Is that an old railway myth? It wouldn’t be possible to move the points in front of the train.

There was an accident at hull where they managed it. The signalman was a bit quick replacing the signals after a train, allowing a conflicting movement. head on collision