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Wrong Railway Facts

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Andy873

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There's so many examples coming up here.

Padiham signal box was stated to have closed with the others on my old line in 1964. It didn't close until 30/6/1969.

Padiham power station apparently never converted one unit to oil firing - it did, and the WTT's of the 1970's prove it, why else would daily oil trains make a trip there?

My general point about books:
Did you know that if you write a book and it\s given an ISBN number, the British library automatically gets a copy? - true.

Imagine a scenario where only one book was written about say the Rainhill trials and they got the dates wrong / or the wrong engine won? and that's the only book you've got yo go on...
 

Dai Corner

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Padiham power station apparently never converted one unit to oil firing - it did, and the WTT's of the 1970's prove it, why else would daily oil trains make a trip there?
Just because there were paths in the WTT doesn't mean the trains actually ran. You'd need independent evidence such as observation of the trains or the conversion work to be sure.
 

Andy873

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Just because there were paths in the WTT doesn't mean the trains actually ran. You'd need independent evidence such as observation of the trains or the conversion work to be sure.
True, here it is:

My L&Y society book states oil trains ran as well as coal to the power station.

There is a video on of an open day at the power station in the 1980's, you can see the Shell oil wagons there.

See here.

You can trace them leaving Stanlow refinery (Cheshire) to the power station.

Finally. I saw them on their way there several times.
 
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Dai Corner

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True, here it is:

My L&Y society book states oil trains ran as well as coal to the power station.

There is a video on of an open day at the power station in the 1980's, you can see the Shell oil wagons there.

See here.

You can trace them leaving Stanlow refinery (Cheshire) to the power station.

Finally. I saw them on their way there several times.
If only all authors and website contributors were as diligent.
 

Graham H

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I have noticed that the Railway Magazine appears to have increasing errors. Of course the following months edition will have corrections pointed out by readers but unless you go back and update the previous errors I doubt anyone in the future reading an isolated issue would be any the wiser that the photo of xxx taken on yyy was factually incorrect if the error was only a few months perhaps.
Part of the problem may be that proof reading is a lost art now. Frequently I see spelling (Farnham v Fareham for example) or grammatical errors that make the context change. I blame the spellcheck and predictive text available in computer programmes for much of this as its so easy to hit the button and think the computer knows best. Of course proof reading your own article is not always successful as I know many times I have read what I meant rather than what I wrote down !!
 

Dai Corner

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I have noticed that the Railway Magazine appears to have increasing errors. Of course the following months edition will have corrections pointed out by readers but unless you go back and update the previous errors I doubt anyone in the future reading an isolated issue would be any the wiser that the photo of xxx taken on yyy was factually incorrect if the error was only a few months perhaps.
Part of the problem may be that proof reading is a lost art now. Frequently I see spelling (Farnham v Fareham for example) or grammatical errors that make the context change. I blame the spellcheck and predictive text available in computer programmes for much of this as its so easy to hit the button and think the computer knows best. Of course proof reading your own article is not always successful as I know many times I have read what I meant rather than what I wrote down !!
I guess there isn't enough money in publishing to pay someone to do the checks now.

If people are willing to do it for nothing post-publication perhaps they'd do so pre-publication if sent the proofs? Or is the motivation getting their names in print after catching out the magazine?
 

Mcr Warrior

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My general point about books:
Did you know that if you write a book and it\s given an ISBN number, the British library automatically gets a copy? - true.
Not just them. The National Library of Scotland; the National Library of Wales in Aberystwyth; the Bodleian Libraries at the University of Oxford; Cambridge University Library and possibly also the Library at the Trinity College, Dublin, also all get copies.
 

Magdalia

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My general point about books:
Did you know that if you write a book and it\s given an ISBN number, the British library automatically gets a copy? - true.
Yes. And I have a British Library reader's card.

I think the University Libraries at Cambridge and Oxford get a copy too.

Not just them. The National Library of Scotland; the National Library of Wales in Aberystwyth; the Bodleian Libraries at the University of Oxford; Cambridge University Library and possibly also the Library at the Trinity College, Dublin, also all get copies.

Ah! Not typing quickly enough.
 

jfollows

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I have noticed that the Railway Magazine appears to have increasing errors. Of course the following months edition will have corrections pointed out by readers but unless you go back and update the previous errors I doubt anyone in the future reading an isolated issue would be any the wiser that the photo of xxx taken on yyy was factually incorrect if the error was only a few months perhaps.
Part of the problem may be that proof reading is a lost art now. Frequently I see spelling (Farnham v Fareham for example) or grammatical errors that make the context change. I blame the spellcheck and predictive text available in computer programmes for much of this as its so easy to hit the button and think the computer knows best. Of course proof reading your own article is not always successful as I know many times I have read what I meant rather than what I wrote down !!
Agreed, they did an article about Steventon Bridge a while back (June 2020) in which they wrote that the overhead was not electrified and energised when initially installed, whereas in fact it was but there was a 60mph limit imposed on trains with raised pantographs initially (the overhead wire had a sharp gradient down/up to get under the bridge) so trains that could use diesel did so to avoid the speed restriction. Modern Railways got this right. I wrote to Railway Magazine but never received an acknowledgement and nor, to my knowledge, was any correction printed subsequently. So anyone treating this one article as authoritative is going to propagate a falsehood.
On this particular story, further modelling enabled the speed restriction to be lifted to 110mph which removed the "compelling need" to destroy the bridge.
 

Gloster

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There's so many examples coming up here.

Padiham signal box was stated to have closed with the others on my old line in 1964. It didn't close until 30/6/1969.

A frequent error is quoting an incorrect date of closure for a signal box, when the date is the one on which it was downgraded from a signal box to a ground frame or gate box: the date of the final and complete closure could be later. A similar situation could arise with it ceasing to be regularly manned, but still available to be switched in if required. I have even seen a case of an author saying that a box had closed and criticising BR for leaving the equipment in place and the box open to vandalism, when it was still occasionally opened to allow access to a siding.
 

Dr Hoo

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True, here it is:

My L&Y society book states oil trains ran as well as coal to the power station.

There is a video on of an open day at the power station in the 1980's, you can see the Shell oil wagons there.

See here.

You can trace them leaving Stanlow refinery (Cheshire) to the power station.

Finally. I saw them on their way there several times.
Padiham certainly received oil trains from Stanlow (I was slightly involved in operating them in the 1970s).

Nevertheless, many 'coal fired' power stations used oil for 'lighting up' purposes and did receive occasional oil trains. It would be misleading to describe those stations as 'oil fired', however. You can see the discharge pipework in the video.

However, the four 'Shell' wagons most obvious in the video are clearly an 'exhibition' set. You wouldn't get a mix of 2 x 4-wheelers and 2 x bogie tanks in one short rake for Padiham. The white tank wouldn't have been used for heavy/bunker oil anyway. No doubt part of the general 'rail fest' exhibition of a wide range of traction and rolling stock.
 

matchmaker

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Padiham certainly received oil trains from Stanlow (I was slightly involved in operating them in the 1970s).

Nevertheless, many 'coal fired' power stations used oil for 'lighting up' purposes and did receive occasional oil trains. It would be misleading to describe those stations as 'oil fired', however. You can see the discharge pipework in the video.

However, the four 'Shell' wagons most obvious in the video are clearly an 'exhibition' set. You wouldn't get a mix of 2 x 4-wheelers and 2 x bogie tanks in one short rake for Padiham. The white tank wouldn't have been used for heavy/bunker oil anyway. No doubt part of the general 'rail fest' exhibition of a wide range of traction and rolling stock.
Most coal fired stations started the burners on propane, then fuel oil, then pulverised coal. Sometimes the coal was aided by oil.
 

Andy873

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Padiham certainly received oil trains from Stanlow (I was slightly involved in operating them in the 1970s).

Nevertheless, many 'coal fired' power stations used oil for 'lighting up' purposes and did receive occasional oil trains. It would be misleading to describe those stations as 'oil fired', however. You can see the discharge pipework in the video.

Most coal fired stations started the burners on propane, then fuel oil, then pulverised coal. Sometimes the coal was aided by oil.

Interesting, I guess unless I could find some archive of the CEGB I won't know, but I think we can all at least agree the power station did receive some oil - for now, purpose unknown.
 

6Gman

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According to Wikipedia (I know, I know) there were plans for oil-firing at Padiham but only coal and petrocoke* were ever used as fuel.


* Petrocoke is a by-product of oil refining - it seems to be closer to coke than petroleum, principally in that it is solid rather than liquid. I have no idea how it would have been transported.

EDIT: We are drifting a little off-topic here, but . . .

It appears that petrocoke was transported in covered hoppers (that look a bit like grain hoppers). One flow that I've found on Flicker was from the Humber oil refinery to the Rio Tinto aluminium works at Holyhead back in the 1990s (?). So, maybe, it was also moved from Stanlow and possibly to Padiham?
 
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randyrippley

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Interesting, I guess unless I could find some archive of the CEGB I won't know, but I think we can all at least agree the power station did receive some oil - for now, purpose unknown.
Even if you could find any archives they may be unclear.
From what I was told years ago, the details of the coal-to-oil conversions during / prior to the Scargill strike were kept secret to avoid the NUM realising what was happening. Also many (possibly most?) of the "conversions" involved minimal physical change to the boilers. All they did was switch fuels: replacing pulverised coal by fly-ash sprayed with heavy oil. The resultant mess could be used and handled as a solid, not a liquid. Equipment changes were minimal, I guess changes would be needed to the burners in the boiler
 

Dr Hoo

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According to Wikipedia (I know, I know) there were plans for oil-firing at Padiham but only coal and petrocoke* were ever used as fuel.


* Petrocoke is a by-product of oil refining - it seems to be closer to coke than petroleum, principally in that it is solid rather than liquid. I have no idea how it would have been transported.

EDIT: We are drifting a little off-topic here, but . . .

It appears that petrocoke was transported in covered hoppers (that look a bit like grain hoppers). One flow that I've found on Flicker was from the Humber oil refinery to the Rio Tinto aluminium works at Holyhead back in the 1990s (?). So, maybe, it was also moved from Stanlow and possibly to Padiham?
The "Humber to Holyhead" flow of petroleum coke wasn't for 'fuel' purposes, so far as I understand. (The aluminium smelter used electricity, conceptually from nearby Wylfa nuclear station although obviously anywhere on the Grid really.) The coke was high in carbon and was manufactured into 'electrodes' - chemistry and physics teaching eluding me these days but hope you get the idea - for the electric arc smelting. It travelled in BRT leased hoppers.

I don't think that Padiham was equipped for hopper discharge (but may be wrong).

I was never aware of the Stanlow complex using rail to despatch petrocoke.
 

infobleep

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For 28 July, following the previous day's strike, South Western Railway said something along the lines of:
First services will start much later than usual.

I accept why they did this so I'm not criticising them. However, technically there was a rail replacement bus running between Guildford and Wimbledon starting before 4 àm so that was the first service.
 

Western Sunset

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Just to clarify things re-legal deposit of material.

"If you're a publisher, you need to give a copy of every UK publication you make to the British Library. Five other major UK libraries may also ask you to give them a copy. This system is called legal deposit and it's been a part of English law since 1662." (Source: British Library website).

So only the British Library needs to be sent a copy. The other libraries in Edinburgh, Aberystwyth, Dublin, Oxford and Cambridge can ask for a free copy if they want one.
 

Dai Corner

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Just to clarify things re-legal deposit of material.

"If you're a publisher, you need to give a copy of every UK publication you make to the British Library. Five other major UK libraries may also ask you to give them a copy. This system is called legal deposit and it's been a part of English law since 1662." (Source: British Library website).

So only the British Library needs to be sent a copy. The other libraries in Edinburgh, Aberystwyth, Dublin, Oxford and Cambridge can ask for a free copy if they want one.
There are some very dubious publications out there (think top shelves of newsagents for example). I wonder what the British Library does with those? Maybe it turns a blind eye to the requirement.
 

Springs Branch

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There are some very dubious publications out there (think top shelves of newsagents for example). I wonder what the British Library does with those? Maybe it turns a blind eye to the requirement.
I was at Cambridge University in the 1970s and 80s and the apocryphal story circulating at the time was that the University Library (UL) did indeed maintain a 'comprehensive & representative' collection of those sorts of publications.

Allegedly, these were kept under lock & key in a 'special' section of the UL's tower (surely a dungeon would be more appropriate), and were only available for 'research purposes' on application to a senior librarian with a letter from your tutor / supervisor explaining precisely why you needed access.

Some medical students of my acquaintance claimed they could get access to the UL's stash without any difficulty (maybe for anatomy study, or as a preview of some of the 'I slipped and fell' stories they'd later encounter working late at night in A&E) - but I always took this with a grain of NaCl.
 
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Andy873

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Yes you do have to wonder about what you read and the source of the information.

More examples:

Marshall describes a landslide at one embankment 1/1/1877, but my L&Y society book states this happened 1/1/1876 - which is it?

Both state the embankment had track and signals in place but it took six months to repair and replace the track etc.

This section of line opened 1/6/1877.
 

randyrippley

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I was at Cambridge University in the 1970s and 80s and the apocryphal story circulating at the time was that the University Library (UL) did indeed maintain a 'comprehensive & representative' collection of those sorts of publications.

Allegedly, these were kept under lock & key in a 'special' section of the UL's tower (surely a dungeon would be more appropriate), and were only available for 'research purposes' on application to a senior librarian with a letter from your tutor / supervisor explaining precisely why you needed access.

Some medical students of my acquaintance claimed they could get access to the UL's stash without any difficulty (maybe for anatomy study, or as a preview of some of the 'I slipped and fell' stories they'd later encounter working late at night in A&E) - but I always took this with a grain of NaCl.
NaCl?
NaBr would have been more appropriate
 

Magdalia

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Even if you could find any archives they may be unclear.
From what I was told years ago, the details of the coal-to-oil conversions during / prior to the Scargill strike were kept secret to avoid the NUM realising what was happening.
Cabinet papers and some Ministry files will get deposited with the National Archives and now available for research under the "30 year rule".

I have had a bit of a dabble in the National Archives catalogue for CEGB papers but not found anything yet. I keep hitting lots of UK Atomic Energy Authority stuff. I suspect there's CEGB papers in there somewhere, especially for the earlier years of its existence.

So only the British Library needs to be sent a copy. The other libraries in Edinburgh, Aberystwyth, Dublin, Oxford and Cambridge can ask for a free copy if they want one.
My main gripe with the Cambridge University Library is that they did not save all the papers of the Cambridge University Railway Club!

Allegedly, these were kept under lock & key in a 'special' section of the UL's tower (surely a dungeon would be more appropriate),

Anyone familiar with the Cambridge University Library tower will recognise the top floor as the appropriate place!
 

Andy873

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I have had a bit of a dabble in the National Archives catalogue for CEGB papers but not found anything yet.
Well, you gave me ideas there, so I had a look myself and found it!

There's an application to convert Padiham power station to oil firing in 1973.


It still doesn't prove it ever happened, and the year 1973 is unfortunate as this was the year of the first oil crisis. So the CEGB did more than just talk about it with an application submission.

There were no oil trains in 1974 but by 1978 they ran weekdays MSX.
 

Towers

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Have we had the DfT yet? "Rolling stock is a matter for the TOCs and has nowt to do with us", etc.

Also, one of the most oft-repeated railway myths of all time - that the GWR was the best of the Big Four! Those in the know are of course aware that this is completely false, the correct answer is obviously the Southern....

*Dives for cover :lol::lol::lol:
 

geoffk

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I've come across errors in books, such as a reference to the Edge Hill Light Railway being in the Liverpool area and the Severn Tunnel having broad gauge tracks. These come into the "howler" category but other errors are less easily spotted. Some are perpetuated and become accepted fact such as the date of Preston shed fire frequently quoted as 1961, when it was actually a year earlier. With regard to magazines, the problem is inadequate checking in the rush to be as up to date as possible and on the bookshelves before the competition.
 

Dai Corner

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I've come across errors in books, such as a reference to the Edge Hill Light Railway being in the Liverpool area and the Severn Tunnel having broad gauge tracks. These come into the "howler" category but other errors are less easily spotted. Some are perpetuated and become accepted fact such as the date of Preston shed fire frequently quoted as 1961, when it was actually a year earlier. With regard to magazines, the problem is inadequate checking in the rush to be as up to date as possible and on the bookshelves before the competition.
When magazines published pages of loco failures, unusual workings and the like, weren't there a number of correspondents who found it amusing to send in false, implausible reports to try to catch the editor out and sometimes succeeded?
 

Magdalia

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Well, you gave me ideas there, so I had a look myself and found it!

There's an application to convert Padiham power station to oil firing in 1973.


It still doesn't prove it ever happened, and the year 1973 is unfortunate as this was the year of the first oil crisis. So the CEGB did more than just talk about it with an application submission.

There were no oil trains in 1974 but by 1978 they ran weekdays MSX.
Thanks for this. You have given me a place to start for more dabbling!

When magazines published pages of loco failures, unusual workings and the like, weren't there a number of correspondents who found it amusing to send in false, implausible reports to try to catch the editor out and sometimes succeeded?
I've heard this too. It particularly related to one magazine that published a few things that were widely known to be incorrect, then people started to test their ability to separate fact from fiction.
 
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