York to Harrogate signalling

[Colin1501]

As far as I know the problem with that signal was that, if it had been commissioned, the platform would have needed to be nearly doubled in length (at vast expense) in order to allow the train to be fully in the platform when stopped at the signal. The existing semaphore has "grandfather rights" and thus could be simply maintained thus avoiding the expense so that is what happened. I think the signal was erected in 1989 as a consequence of the York resignalling and abolition of Skelton Junction box

Thanks Pinza-C55 - that's interesting to know.

 

[Pinza-C55]

Thanks Pinza-C55 - that's interesting to know.

The problem with any proper resignalling of the line is that several of the stations duplicate the situation at Poppleton. So at Starbeck and Cattal you have a signal right next to the level crossing and at Knaresborough the signal is next to a wicket gate crossing. At Hammerton on the Harrogate platform there is no signal protecting the level crossing. As far as I know the current signalling regulations stipulate that a newly installed signal protecting a level crossing should be a minimum of 200 feet from the crossing , as was the case with the ill fated colour light at Poppleton. So if they wanted to resignal Cattal the new signal on the Harrogate platform would need to be 200 feet from the crossing and thus the platform would need to be extended OR they would need to build a bridge to replace the crossing. Whilst that would be feasible (at huge expense) at Cattal and Hammerton it would be virtually impossible at Starbeck and Poppleton. Whichever way you slice it, resignalling the whole line and/or doubling it is going to cost a lot of money.

 

[LowLevel]

The problem with any proper resignalling of the line is that several of the stations duplicate the situation at Poppleton. So at Starbeck and Cattal you have a signal right next to the level crossing and at Knaresborough the signal is next to a wicket gate crossing. At Hammerton on the Harrogate platform there is no signal protecting the level crossing. As far as I know the current signalling regulations stipulate that a newly installed signal protecting a level crossing should be a minimum of 200 feet from the crossing , as was the case with the ill fated colour light at Poppleton. So if they wanted to resignal Cattal the new signal on the Harrogate platform would need to be 200 feet from the crossing and thus the platform would need to be extended OR they would need to build a bridge to replace the crossing. Whilst that would be feasible (at huge expense) at Cattal and Hammerton it would be virtually impossible at Starbeck and Poppleton. Whichever way you slice it, resignalling the whole line and/or doubling it is going to cost a lot of money.

There are ways around it (numerous stations I work through have been resignalled in the last 5 years and have signals right on the end of the platform) but I'm not sure on the specific rules. Rolleston, Fiskerton, Lowdham and Burton Joyce all have signals next to the level crossings there and Burton Joyce is usually "on" on arrival as it is provided for timings at an AHB crossing.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Whilst that would be feasible (at huge expense) at Cattal and Hammerton it would be virtually impossible at Starbeck and Poppleton.

Wasn't they're talk of sinking the line and putting it in a cutting through Starbeck at one time ?

As for Cattal I don't know if anything has been previously suggested but I can't imagine it would be that difficult considering it is mostly surrounded by fields. (At the moment)

 

[Pinza-C55]

There are ways around it (numerous stations I work through have been resignalled in the last 5 years and have signals right on the end of the platform) but I'm not sure on the specific rules. Rolleston, Fiskerton, Lowdham and Burton Joyce all have signals next to the level crossings there and Burton Joyce is usually "on" on arrival as it is provided for timings at an AHB crossing.

Maybe that's true, I'm not an expert on signalling. But I looked at Burton Joyce station on Google Earth and the signal is a long way back from the crossing.

This is the planning application for "Maltkiln Village" centred on Cattal station which includes replacing the level crossing with a bridge. I can't imagine how the existing trains will cope with that number of possible commuters. The "Great Hammerton" proposal is on a similar scale centred on Hammerton station.

file:///C:/Users/User/Documents/Bluetooth%20Folder/Archive/Oakgate-Group-Vision-Doc-1054819.pdf

 

[LowLevel]

Maybe that's true, I'm not an expert on signalling. But I looked at Burton Joyce station on Google Earth and the signal is a long way back from the crossing.

This is the planning application for "Maltkiln Village" centred on Cattal station which includes replacing the level crossing with a bridge. I can't imagine how the existing trains will cope with that number of possible commuters. The "Great Hammerton" proposal is on a similar scale centred on Hammerton station.

file:///C:/Users/User/Documents/Bluetooth%20Folder/Archive/Oakgate-Group-Vision-Doc-1054819.pdf

Attached is the signal on the down at Burton Joyce - as you'll note it is only a few metres from the crossing. (Click on it and the resolution will correct).

 

[superkev]

The first phase of the replacement of traditional token working with some sort of token less block started yesterday. I hear it ran a little late with talk of some pilotman working.
Two more weekends to go and due to finish 6th Dec.
K

 

[Scotrail88]

Is that the cause of the delays occurring today?

 

[superkev]

Delays seem to be continuing today.
I cant quite get my head round the new system which retains the signalmen, signals and presumably the traditional bells but dispenses with the tokens.
Phasd 2 this weekend all finished Dec 6th
K

 

[Mollman]

Delays seem to be continuing today.
I cant quite get my head round the new system which retains the signalmen, signals and presumably the traditional bells but dispenses with the tokens.
Phasd 2 this weekend all finished Dec 6th
K

The idea is that it saves the time and hassle of physical token exchange where either the signaler has to leave the box or the driver has to leave the cab. St Bees (Cumbria) has the former and the crossing gates can be closed quite a long time after the train has crossed as the signaler has to cross the line via the footbridge to exchange tokens and then cross back to reach the box.

 

[Pinza-C55]

The idea is that it saves the time and hassle of physical token exchange where either the signaler has to leave the box or the driver has to leave the cab. St Bees (Cumbria) has the former and the crossing gates can be closed quite a long time after the train has crossed as the signaler has to cross the line via the footbridge to exchange tokens and then cross back to reach the box.

And presumably because it doesn't involve major alterations to the mechanical signals it leaves the way open for redoubling of the line which it (arguably) should be.

 

[Scotrail88]

Looks like delays are still happening albeit not as bad.

Is completion this week and hope to remove these delays?

 

[superkev]

Supposed to be completed today with a new Crossover to allow trains from leeds to access platform 3 and the extended loop at Cattell.
As I said I've no idea how it all works as I believe it reatains the bells and signalmen but has no tokens.
K

 

[Triang Hornby]

Travelled on this line recently. Is the work now complete. And has it brought about the expected efficiencies?

 

[The Lad]

I suspect that the covid timetable doesn't allow it to demonstrate the advantages, there have been a few failures requiring appointment of a pilotman

 

[skyhigh]

I suspect that the covid timetable doesn't allow it to demonstrate the advantages, there have been a few failures requiring appointment of a pilotman

A few?!

 

[IanXC]

A few?!

A few days of operation where a pilotman has not been required?

 

[skyhigh]

A few days of operation where a pilotman has not been required?

That's more the case. It might just be how it feels to me as train crew, but it went through an awful few weeks.

 

[The Lad]

I was aware of a few but I don't check every day!