Your thoughts about the EU pre-2013

[AY1975]

Following on from the long-running thread on Brexit matters at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/brexit-matters.211154/ I am interested to know what people's thoughts about the EU were (if they had any thoughts about it at all) before 2013 when David Cameron first pledged to hold an in/out referendum if re-elected with an overall majority in 2015.

The purpose of this thread is not to discuss the pros and cons of Brexit or whether or not we think it was a good idea (which has already been done to death in the above mentioned thread and several previous threads), but purely for you to talk about your thoughts about the EU before we knew that an in/out referendum was looming (and do please say how you voted in the referendum, and if you voted Leave, whether you think you would still have been crying out for us to leave the EU if Cameron hadn't decided to call the referendum or hadn't been able to do so if he hadn't won an overall majority in 2015).

Clearly there has always been a vociferous minority of the UK population who had been ardent Eurosceptics throughout their adult lives and who had been crying out for us to leave the EEC/EU ever since we joined the then EEC in 1973 (and ever since the 1975 referendum result was announced). However, polling in the run-up to the 2015 General Election showed that our EU membership wasn't a top priority for the vast majority of voters until David Cameron decided that it should be (or rather allowed himself to be persuaded by the Tory Eurosceptics and UKIP that it should be). If it had been a top priority for most voters then the Tories would have won a much bigger majority in 2015. As it was, they only just managed to persuade enough Eurosceptic voters in key marginal seats to vote Conservative to secure a very slender overall majority, which they nonetheless interpreted as a mandate to hold a referendum.

I suspect that the vast majority of people in the UK, whether they voted Remain, Leave or didn't vote, had until 2016 been largely unaware of what the EU was and what it did for us (and some probably didn't even know that the EU existed or that we were in it).

 

[yorksrob]

I think it would have been better if it had stayed more along the lines of the pre-Maastricht EEC model. Would certainly have been more in keeping with our National aspirations.

 

[AlterEgo]

I have to say I was completely dispassionate about the issue in 2013 and didn’t see it as a major sticking point.

 

[davetheguard]

I don't think EU membership mattered to most people at all until recently. I remember one of John Major's Maastrict rebels, Sir Teddy Taylor MP for Southend, appearing on Have I Got News for You, where he was treated by the panel and the audience as a rather preposterous "figure of fun" for his constant obsessive mutterings about the EU.

 

[gg1]

I was broadly pro-EU but accepted it was not without it's faults, in particular I was never a fan of 100% free movement of labour. Having said that it was never a major consideration when it came to voting. Economic, health, education, environmental, social and foreign policies were all far more important to me.

At the time the referendum was announced I leant towards remain but wasn't totally sure which way I would eventually vote, I hoped to hear mature intelligent debate regarding the relative pros and cons of membership which sadly never materialised, both sides were as bad as each other in their ludicrous claims, mudslinging and scaremongering IMO.

 

[yorksrob]

I think that there was quite a large section of opinion that the single currency, as an example, was a step too far, if nothing else. At the Maastricht stage, most people still thought it was a bit of a pipe dream.

 

[eMeS]

I think it would have been better if it had stayed more along the lines of the pre-Maastricht EEC model. Would certainly have been more in keeping with our National aspirations.

I clearly remember one of the then computer magazines publishing the full text of the Maastricht agreement on its cover CD. I was horrified by how much had been agreed without us being kept informed. Up to then, I'd been in favour of being in the EU. From that time, I took more interest in what our politicians were agreeing to on our behalf.

 

[JamesT]

Although not a top issue, I think many people in the UK disagreed with the path of "ever closer union". The sleight-of-hand where a referendum was promised for the EU Constitution but not for the largely similar Lisbon Treaty made our politicians look untrustworthy on the issue.
As well as the constant drumbeat from UKIP and its predecessors, most of the mainstream political parties had called for referendums in the recent past. Even the SNP called for a referendum over Lisbon. The LibDems had an in/out referendum in the 2010 manifesto.
Given that, I think a referendum of some kind on our EU membership was inevitable.

 

[Sm5]

I had no issues with the EU pre2013. Sure it had its faults.
The problem before 2013 was economic off the back of the 2009 financial crisis. The country never got back on its feet after that, and started looking to deflect blame, and the EU happened walked through the crosshairs.

 

[TheSeeker]

I was lucky enough to live through the golden age of UK/EU relations. After graduation in 1998 I found a job in Slough. The firm had won a huge contract in Brussels (fixing the Y2K problem at an insurance company). The Belgian office didn't have enough staff so six of us new recruits were sent from the UK to work on it.

The usual thing happened, I met a woman. Then decided to find a local job in Belgium and moved over here in 2000.

All those things were seamless. My freedom of movement, the firms ability to send people from another EU member state (qualifications recognised, no work permits etc.), the UK based firms ability to gain the profits from working in another state.

For me, freedom of movement (people, goods, services, capital) is the cornerstone of being an EU member state.

Regarding the introduction of the Euro. We all received a bag of euro coins the week before the introduction. Banks exchanged Belgian Francs for Euros with no issues. It was a huge boon to my inlaws living near Luxembourg. My mother in law had previously kept three purses for shopping. French Francs, Belgian Francs and Deutsch Marks.

 

[Ianno87]

My view was that the EU was by no means perfect, but it was great to be key part of a cooperative international organisation and properly part of 'Europe' and its diverse culture. I would have loved the UK to also be part of Schengen (a product of Interrailing in 2008 when country borders barely mattered, and why should they, really - they're all basically arbitrary lines on a map anyway)

I think that there was quite a large section of opinion that the single currency, as an example, was a step too far, if nothing else.

I was skeptical about the single currency. Frankly, I think we had a good deal being in the EU but out of the Euro, and with power of Veto etc.. And we threw it away for some reason.

 

[yorksrob]

My view was that the EU was by no means perfect, but it was great to be key part of a cooperative international organisation and properly part of 'Europe' and its diverse culture. I would have loved the UK to also be part of Schengen (a product of Interrailing in 2008 when country borders barely mattered, and why should they, really - they're all basically arbitrary lines on a map anyway)





I was skeptical about the single currency. Frankly, I think we had a good deal being in the EU but out of the Euro, and with power of Veto etc.. And we threw it away for some reason.

I agree with your second post. Although David Cameron's renegotiation was too Tory (market orientated) we should have given it a decade or so to see how it worked.

 

[Butts]

Some of us on here can remember pre-1973 never mind 2013 , before we had joined.

Coming hot on the heels of decimalisation a couple of years before joining, it was similarly held responsible for price increases in the shops.

One benefit was the introduction of King Size Cigarettes ( a lot more people smoked then)

 

[telstarbox]

David Cameron's book is quite insightful (if self serving) about the renegotiation process before the referendum.

 

[Busaholic]

Some of us on here can remember pre-1973 never mind 2013 , before we had joined.

Coming hot on the heels of decimalisation a couple of years before joining, it was similarly held responsible for price increases in the shops.

The Egypt-Israel war of 1973 and the consequent huge increase in the oil price was the prime stoker of inflation at the time.

My main reason for wishing the U.K. to remain in the EU was the freedom to travel, remembering how in 1969 on reaching 21 (the Age of Majority at that time) I was stymied in my attempts to get very far in Europe because of the strict Exchange Control regulations concerning taking money abroad (no credit or debit cards then) and the lack of any Interrail. How I envied the 'gap year' and other travellers who managed it all with ease in later years, by which time I was a married wage slave!

 

[colchesterken]

I blame the whole thing on Major, I voted against in 1975 on a matter of principal, not to put all our eggs in one basket and keep our options open to the world. Top nation and all that. We seemed to get on with them until Maastricht, such a basic change in everything we are should have been subject to a referendum ( he would have lost ) He forced it through because he thought he was right. Portello gave an interview with Andrew Neale when he said he was proud to have been one of " The Bastards " quote from John Major, for being against the Maastricht Treaty
I voted leave in 2016 on the basis of "ever closer union" the last nail in the coffin for me was the ruling by the European Court that we must give prisoner's the vote, I dont care weather they can vote or not it is the principal of them telling us what to do
I voted to leave in 2016. I now regret it, I voted on a matter of principal, sovereignty and all that. When I see how it has gone with the leaving deal we did it seems we are in the worst of all worlds, and may lose Scotland and N Ireland
Maybe, just Maybe. Labour was right about a second vote when we knew the deal on offer
Anyone remember that bloke who said " no prime minster of the UK would ever allow a boarder in the Irish Sea "

 

[Busaholic]

Anyone remember that bloke who said " no prime minster of the UK would ever allow a boarder in the Irish Sea "

He'd have had a get-out clause if only he'd added the words ''worthy of the name'' after the UK.

 

[Ianno87]

. Labour was right about a second vote when we knew the deal on offer

I thought that was actually pretty pragmatic.

But the country was so divided and polarised on the issue by 2019, pragmatism was never going to fly - most people don't "do" pragmatism.

 

[XAM2175]

... on the basis of "ever closer union" ...

We were exempt from that too, you know.

 

[dosxuk]

the last nail in the coffin for me was the ruling by the European Court that we must give prisoner's the vote, I dont care weather they can vote or not it is the principal of them telling us what to do

And this was the European Court for Human Rights, which is separate from the EU and we're still signed up to.

 

[colchesterken]

Oh dear the stupid old git seems to have got the whole thing wrong!!
How many others voted on impulse

 

[dosxuk]

Unfortunately any attempts at an informed debate where people talked in factual terms were drowned out by the "if we leave world war three will start" and "we've all had enough of listening to experts" camps.

 

[Ianno87]

Oh dear the stupid old git seems to have got the whole thing wrong!!
How many others voted on impulse

And plenty voted over things that had nothing to do with the EU. It was a catch-all scapegoat.

Unfortunately any attempts at an informed debate where people talked in factual terms were drowned out by the "if we leave world war three will start" and "we've all had enough of listening to experts" camps.

Not helped by Cameron having no plan for Leave winning, especially by such a small majority.

Frankly (and hindsight being wonderful) the first thing the actual result should have done (and been made clear to the electorate beforehand) would be the UK going to the rest of the EU and asking what it can do to address such dissatisfaction and what a renegotiated position might look like.

Instead, we just had months on end of infighting and no clear plan that ultimately weakened our position.

 

[AY1975]

I blame the whole thing on Major, I voted against in 1975 on a matter of principal, not to put all our eggs in one basket and keep our options open to the world. Top nation and all that. We seemed to get on with them until Maastricht, such a basic change in everything we are should have been subject to a referendum ( he would have lost ) He forced it through because he thought he was right. Portello gave an interview with Andrew Neale when he said he was proud to have been one of " The Bastards " quote from John Major, for being against the Maastricht Treaty

I seem to recall that Major toyed with the idea of putting the Maastricht Treaty to a referendum but decided against it, maybe partly out of fear of losing but probably also because he realised that such a referendum would have risked tearing the country apart (just as the 2016 Brexit referendum did). Rightly or wrongly, he believed that avoiding that risk was, on balance, more important than avoiding angering the Eurosceptics. After all, a country that is bitterly divided on such an important issue can hardly be said to be at ease with itself.

 

[JamesT]

Not helped by Cameron having no plan for Leave winning, especially by such a small majority.

Frankly (and hindsight being wonderful) the first thing the actual result should have done (and been made clear to the electorate beforehand) would be the UK going to the rest of the EU and asking what it can do to address such dissatisfaction and what a renegotiated position might look like.

Instead, we just had months on end of infighting and no clear plan that ultimately weakened our position.

My recollection of the time is that Cameron's deal was the limit of what the rest of the EU were willing to offer. It was also conditional on winning the referendum, so disappeared when Leave won.

 

[yorksrob]

Oh dear the stupid old git seems to have got the whole thing wrong!!
How many others voted on impulse

To be fair, we were very much committed to ever closer union up until David cameron's re-negotiation.

 

[birchesgreen]

I wouldn't say i'm a EU fanatic though have never been against it. Greater European integration such as the euro wouldn't have bothered me, to be honest the average European politician seems of a better calibre than what we have here these days. As for the euro i'm not bothered what my money is called, just as long as i have some!

 

[eMeS]

To be fair, we were very much committed to ever closer union up until David Cameron's re-negotiation.

For me, that was a deciding period, in that Cameron didn't seem to get treated with any respect.

 

[yorksrob]

For me, that was a deciding period, in that Cameron didn't seem to get treated with any respect.

I think he had a decent stab of it, however it's the sort of thing that we should have been thinking about as a country forty years ago.

 

[nw1]

I would always have been 'in' because it makes life easier - and thought in 2013 that the 'out' vote was the right-wing nationalist fringe. I really didn't think Brexit would have had a chance of winning a referendum, as it seemed to be very much a fringe movement in the same way that the pro-foxhunting lobby was at the time.

And if Brexit did happen, I certainly wasn't anticipating the hard Brexit, with restrictions on movement and trade, that emerged. I expected a Norway deal.

It was of course a badly-designed referendum in the first place (a clear majority of 60%+, or 50% of the entire eligible voting population) should have been needed for such a radical change, not 37% of eligible voters.