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SouthEastern TM refuses valid ticket

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Go on SouthEastern's journey planner and tap in London Victoria to Chelmsford via Stratford International. You will notice it offers fares from Zone U1* Londn to Chelmsford route Any Permitted. I was looking forward to trying the 395.

I got all the way to St Pancras. SouthEastern's barrier refused my ticket. I discussed this with the RPI and he wasn't sure so fetched the TM from the 1855 Faversham, who didn't seem sure and told me he'd sell me a new ticket or let me back out to the Underground which is no short walk. Otherwise he said I could get penalty fared at Stratford Int! So here I am at Liverpool Street more than a little cheesed off.
 
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transportphoto

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Go on SouthEastern's journey planner and tap in London Victoria to Chelmsford via Stratford International. You will notice it offers fares from Zone U1* Londn to Chelmsford route Any Permitted. I was looking forward to trying the 395.

I got all the way to St Pancras. SouthEastern's barrier refused my ticket. I discussed this with the RPI and he wasn't sure so fetched the TM from the 1855 Faversham, who didn't seem sure and told me he'd sell me a new ticket or let me back out to the Underground which is no short walk. Otherwise he said I could get penalty fared at Stratford Int! So here I am at Liverpool Street more than a little cheesed off.
If I was you I would have gone through the barriers and if they PF'd you at Stratford Int appeal, you said in a previous thread that you bought it online and that gave you the itinerary, this is excellent evidence that when you purchased the ticket they gave the route via HS1. I know it would be more hassle than maybe its worth but if you do a similar journey again just book online get the itinerary and do the journey.
 

sonic2009

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If I was you I would have gone through the barriers and if they PF'd you at Stratford Int appeal, you said in a previous thread that you bought it online and that gave you the itinerary, this is excellent evidence that when you purchased the ticket they gave the route via HS1. I know it would be more hassle than maybe its worth but if you do a similar journey again just book online get the itinerary and do the journey.

agree with yourself, should of taken a itineary.
 
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The RPI took me through the barrier to talk to the TM that's why I refer to being 'let out' sorry. I could hardly board his train after that discussion.

And I've never been penalty fared and don't want to risk anything like a criminal record so judged it to be far more hassle and risk than it's worth. I shall of course be making a complaint to SouthEastern. Looks like the fares and validity on this route confuse even the TMs!
 

b0b

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Never pay a penalty fare. Ever.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23731140-fare-dodgers.do


4. politely refuse to pay the penalty and simply pay the full single fare.

On the train or at the station, you have the absolute right to make only "a minimum payment that is equal to the full single fare which [you] would have had to pay for [your] journey if penalty fares had not applied." This is section 8 (2) of the Penalty Fares Rules 2002 - quote it if anyone tries to tell you different. (The full single fare means the fare without any railcard discounts, cheap offers etc.) Ignore any threats that may be made at this point if you refuse to pay the full sum - these are phoney and have no legal basis.
 

yorkie

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They could not give you a penalty fare anyway!

You cannot be given a PF for being off-route! All they can do is charge you a SDS from London to Stratford for £5.00, which you could decline to pay and get an unpaid fares notice and fight it, whether or not it is advisable to do that I am unsure, although I would love it if someone did and if they then won the case.

Their penalty fare threat was either a lie, or they do not understand the PF system. Either way, that sort of behaviour doesn't surprise me.

My advice is always to get their name, and write to the TOC to complain and hopefully they can be re-trained on both the rules and customer service skills. If you didn't get the name, then they might still be able to identify them but it is less likely. Always get the name.
 

kkong

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Never pay a penalty fare. Ever.

On the train or at the station, you have the absolute right to make only "a minimum payment that is equal to the full single fare which [you] would have had to pay for [your] journey if penalty fares had not applied." This is section 8 (2) of the Penalty Fares Rules 2002 - quote it if anyone tries to tell you different.

That is not what the Rules say:

8.2 The authorised collector may require that person to make a minimum payment that is equal to the full single fare which they would have had to pay for their journey if penalty fares had not applied. The person must be given 21 days to pay the rest of the penalty fare, starting on the day that penalty fare is charged. If the penalty fare is not paid in full immediately, it must be paid in any way that is set out in the notice referred to in rule 8.3.
 

b0b

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The person must be given 21 days to pay the rest of the penalty fare, starting on the day that penalty fare is charged. If the penalty fare is not paid in full immediately, it must be paid in any way that is set out in the notice referred to in rule 8.3.

The point being that you should only pay the RPI the single fare and not the 20 quid that you hope to retrieve if you "win" on appeal.

or as the ES puts it:

5 Never pay the penalty in the belief that you can recover it on appeal.

You are allowed to appeal against a penalty fare to one of two supposedly "independent" bodies. Most operators use the Independent Penalty Fares Appeals Service (IPFAS), others the Independent Appeals Service (IAS). But IPFAS is in fact owned by Southeastern Trains, is based at Southeastern's head office and all its staff are Southeastern employees. IAS was also until recently based in railway offices and its company secretary is a director of the company which runs the railways' ticketing system. In short, the appeal process is not independent of the rail operators, is not operated in your interests and is most unlikely to recover your money.
 
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daikilo

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The point being that you should only pay the RPI the single fare and not the 20 quid that you hope to retrieve if you "win" on appeal.

or as the ES puts it:

5 Never pay the penalty in the belief that you can recover it on appeal.

You are allowed to appeal against a penalty fare to one of two supposedly "independent" bodies. Most operators use the Independent Penalty Fares Appeals Service (IPFAS), others the Independent Appeals Service (IAS). But IPFAS is in fact owned by Southeastern Trains, is based at Southeastern's head office and all its staff are Southeastern employees. IAS was also until recently based in railway offices and its company secretary is a director of the company which runs the railways' ticketing system. In short, the appeal process is not independent of the rail operators, is not operated in your interests and is most unlikely to recover your money.

Did I miss the bit about independent? OK, learn your rights and never pay more than the minimum.
 

anonymous0101

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As far as I can tell Zonal Fares are not permitted for travel on HS1. There are a lot of people 'trying it on' and using One day travelcards and requesting to pay from the Zone 6 boundary to Ebbsfleet or Ashford. Unfortunately Stratford International is not in the zones as far as I know.

To get the proper high speed experience why not get a ticket to Ashford? 7 minutes in a tunnel is hardly the proper 395 experience.
 

hairyhandedfool

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In this case the U1 to Chelmsford is basically a ticket in Zone U1 and a London Terminals to Chelmsford ticket.

Tickets to and from London Terminals are not valid on High Speed services from St Pancras unless routed appropriately (eg 'Plus High Speed'), or accompanied by a HS upgrade.

The Southern site should not give this as a valid route unless it mentions the upgrade.

'Inboundary' travelcards are not valid on HS services.
 

brad465

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Usually tickets which involve the availiability of Hs1 would have either "not valid on Hs1" or "Plus Highspeed" written in the route section.:|
 

yorkie

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In this case the U1 to Chelmsford is basically a ticket in Zone U1 and a London Terminals to Chelmsford ticket.
You could say a York to Ashford is basically a York to London Terminals, plus London Terminals to Ashford with the option of a cross-London transfer, but that doesn't make it invalid!
Tickets to and from London Terminals are not valid on High Speed services from St Pancras unless routed appropriately (eg 'Plus High Speed'), or accompanied by a HS upgrade.
That isn't a negative easement (it would be unenforceable and ridiculous if it was), more a 'statement of fact' (or so they think) because they have supposedly re-named the routeing from Any Permitted to Plus HS1, a move which I think is utterly bizarre and ridiculous and serves no real purpose. The equivalent would be for York to Middlesbrough to be routed 'Not ECML' and 'Plus ECML' rather than the sensible 'Not Darlington' and 'Any Permitted'.
The Southern site should not give this as a valid route unless it mentions the upgrade.
HS1 is just a normal line, there is no upgrade necessary unless the ticket is routed Not HS1. This is not really any different to any other ticket not being valid by any a particular route requiring the excess. The only difference is that they are expecting a lot of passengers to require a change of route excess, and as you know excesses are a bit of a faff so they decided to have an upgrade available that would save time.
'Inboundary' travelcards are not valid on HS services.
Well, this is perhaps a topic for another thread. ;)
 

hairyhandedfool

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You could say a York to Ashford is basically a York to London Terminals, plus London Terminals to Ashford with the option of a cross-London transfer, but that doesn't make it invalid!....

No, yorkie there is a subtle difference, the FRPP says that the U1 part is used as an add-on to the national rail fare (this is not the case with a York Ashford fare), in this case London Terminals to Chelmsford. Even if you go back to the old NFM, fares were never listed from U1 to a station, the other way round yes, but never from a 'U' zone.

The fares finder, Ticket machines and websites helpfully add this on for you, but it doesn't change what it is.

....That isn't a negative easement (it would be unenforceable and ridiculous if it was), more a 'statement of fact' (or so they think) because they have supposedly re-named the routeing from Any Permitted to Plus HS1, a move which I think is utterly bizarre and ridiculous and serves no real purpose. The equivalent would be for York to Middlesbrough to be routed 'Not ECML' and 'Plus ECML' rather than the sensible 'Not Darlington' and 'Any Permitted'.

HS1 is just a normal line, there is no upgrade necessary unless the ticket is routed Not HS1. This is not really any different to any other ticket not being valid by any a particular route requiring the excess. The only difference is that they are expecting a lot of passengers to require a change of route excess, and as you know excesses are a bit of a faff so they decided to have an upgrade available that would save time.

Well, this is perhaps a topic for another thread. ;)

I was just reading from the FRPP Yorkie, that is what it says. Tickets to and from London Terminals are not valid without an upgrade (it does note that longer distance tickets like York to Dover 'rte any permitted' are valid on HS1) and 'Inboundary' Travelcards are not valid at all.
 

yorkie

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But that's not a 'negative easement' and I don't think it appears anywhere in the Routeing Guide or Conditions of Carriage - does it?

It's more of a statement of 'fact', a basic explanation of the total mess they did when they introduced the route. There is no good reason why tickets currently routed 'Plus HS1' should not be routed 'Any Permitted' in line with all other routes. This is the case for destinations beyond London Terminals anyway, so why not do it for London Terminals?

The statements that tickets to London Terminals routed Any Permitted are not valid doesn't really make much sense anyway because if it is routed Any Permitted, then that (at least in theory) means that HS1 isn't a permitted route anyway, e.g. Brighton to London Terminals. Are they really going to sell an 'upgrade' to make that valid via HS1?
 

paul1609

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Strangely enough the PIS on the XX42 from London St Pancras announces as the train approaches Ashford:
"We will shortly be arriving at Ashford International, change here for Marshlink serives to Brighton via Eastbourne and Rye"
Presumably if we can stop any investment in the North of England HS1a will see the Marshlink receive ac electrification and the rear 6 coaches of the 18 coach service will continue along the south coast at high speed.
Might upset the sheep on the marsh though! ;)
 

hairyhandedfool

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I think you have to look at what a permitted route actually is Yorkie.

The shortest route
On a direct train
As listed in the NRG

Do any of those fit the bill?

I don't know if HS1 is even in the NRG if I'm honest, but I know London Terminals to Chelmsford (using Shenfield as the RP) only gives the direct route from Liverpool Street (map CO).

We know it isn't a direct train, so is it the shortest route???
 

MikeWh

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I don't know if HS1 is even in the NRG if I'm honest
It is, on maps HK (StP to Ramsgate via Faversham) and HS (all regular HS routes except beyond Faversham). Interestingly Dover to London routes do not include either HK or HS. Ramsgate to London routes mention both. Looks like there is more work to do on that one.
 

b0b

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Did some looking in the National Rail timetable

London Liverpool St to Chelmsford is 29 3/4 miles, the Liverpool St to Stratford leg is 4 miles.

St Pancras to Stratford Intl is 6 miles,

so if the Liverpool St is the shortest route then the St Pancras route/High Speed would appear to be valid via the "within 3 miles of shortest route" rule...
 

yorkie

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I think you have to look at what a permitted route actually is Yorkie.

The shortest route
On a direct train
As listed in the NRG

Do any of those fit the bill?
Yes, I think so.
I don't know if HS1 is even in the NRG if I'm honest, but I know London Terminals to Chelmsford (using Shenfield as the RP) only gives the direct route from Liverpool Street (map CO).

We know it isn't a direct train, so is it the shortest route???
HS1 is in the RG, Any Permitted tickets are valid on it as appropriate, as with any other line (with the exception of Dover which is clearly a mistake, in typical ATOC tradition).

U1 can be anywhere you choose. Let's choose somewhere near King's Cross. Now the shortest route is via HS1, if you take the overall route length from origin to destination. Obviously you will argue that you don't take this length and only taking the route length from London Terminals (I can pre-empt this argument ;)), then admittedly it is not the shortest route, but it is still covered under the 'up to 3 miles longer than the shortest route' rule, as identified by b0b.
 

b0b

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U1 can be anywhere you choose.


While true, wont a LU gateline write where the journey began to the mag stripe of the ticket if they really wanted to argue this.....
 

yorkie

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I don't think that is possible, or done. Magstripes on tickets are very limited in terms of the data they can hold - as mentioned in previous threads.
 

MikeWh

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Where does it say which stations are valid for London terminals given a particular start point. For example, from Crayford I believe the description means Charing Cross, Waterloo East, Cannon Street, London Bridge, Victoria, Blackfriars and City Thameslink. I don't think it is valid to any others. Is it possible that from Chelmsford the description is Liverpool Street only (or possibly including Fenchurch Street)? Following on from that, is it true that U1 only allows travel on Underground services within zone 1 to/from the valid London terminal(s)?
 

clagmonster

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Hairy Handed Fool, thank you for confirming that a Zone U1 (or similar) ticket is considered as an add on to a London Terminals ticket. Please could you tell me, are through fares such as sail-rail and bus links treated in the same way.

On to the original question. The ticket is routed any permitted. The National Routeing Guide states:
"If a choice of routes is available and the fare for the
journey is described as "Any Permitted" route or is unrouted, you are free to
choose any of the routes listed in the Guide."
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/instructions.pdf page 2

As Hairy Handed Fool has already pointed out, the passenger is not travelling on a direct train.

The London Group is a routeing point and Chelmsford is a related station to Shenfield and Witham.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/routeing_point_identifier.pdf pages 14 and 39

We must now perform the fare check rule to determine which of these routeing points, if any, are appropriate.
A London Terminals-Chelmsford day single costs £12.20.
A London Terminals-Shenfield day single costs £9.30, this is less than the Chelmsford fare so Shenfield is an appropriate routeing point.
A London Terminals-Witham day single costs £17.30, this is more than the Chelmsford fare so Witham is not an appropriate routeing point.

The only routeing permission for London Group-Shenfield is CO.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/permitted_route_identifier.pdf page 574

This allows:
London Liverpool St group-Stratford group-Romford group-Shenfield
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/maps.pdf page 18

Therefore, on the face of it, there is no mapped route allowing travel on HS1 out of St Pancras. However, it could be argued that as Liverpool St is a member of the London Group (as shown by the square point on map CO), which also contains St Pancras, and Stratford is a member of the Stratford group, which also contains Stratford International that the Liverpool St-Stratford segment of map CO also covers St Pancras-Stratford International. This would then give a mapped route as desired.

Whether the above argument is correct or not, which I am unsure of, it is a valid route anyway because of the following easement:
"Journeys on direct trains or taking the route of shortest distance or a distance longer
by no more than 3 miles are always following a permitted route."
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/nrg_detail.pdf page 9

As Bob has demonstrated, this easement allows this route.

My advice would be to write to South Eastern, citing the relevent section of the routeing guide and the distances provided in the National Rail timeable, and complain that the guard at St Pancras denied travel on a permitted route. This denies the right provided by condition 13 of the conditions of carriage.
 

b0b

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I don't think that is possible, or done. Magstripes on tickets are very limited in terms of the data they can hold - as mentioned in previous threads.

It must write on entry or exit at a gateline otherwise the U1 ticket would give unlimited entry at U1 ....
 

Deerfold

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I was just reading from the FRPP Yorkie, that is what it says. Tickets to and from London Terminals are not valid without an upgrade

Is that a bit of the FRPP the public don't have access to? And which is contradicted by the information given by SouthEastern when the ticket was sold?
 

b0b

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Is that a bit of the FRPP the public don't have access to? And which is contradicted by the information given by SouthEastern when the ticket was sold?

Also there is no +HS1/Not HS1 fare in NFM06
 

barrykas

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I looked on Journey Planner (the replacement for RJIS) earlier for this and it quite clearly said that St Pancras - Chelmsford via Stratford International was not a valid route, just as I'd expect.

Cheers,

Barry
 
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It must write on entry or exit at a gateline otherwise the U1 ticket would give unlimited entry at U1 ....

Well it let me out and back in at St Pancras!

So as I suspected the journey planners know the rules and therefore knows travelling via Stratford International is permitted. When SE get in touch I will be able to show that Chelmsford to/from London Terminals/U1 is valid for a 7 minute ride on the 395. Presumably most Any Permitted journeys to/from London passing through Stratford are valid by this route!
 
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