SouthEastern TM refuses valid ticket

[yorkie]

but that's not authoritative or part of the contract. RJIS is/was wrong on occasions and i'd not be surprised if its replacement is not 100% accurate

 

[barrykas]

It must write on entry or exit at a gateline otherwise the U1 ticket would give unlimited entry at U1 ....

Usage is recorded in what is nominally the "LU" part of the magstripe, with 9 bits each for the station, date and time (within a 5 minute period) at which the ticket was last used. For season tickets, only the station and time are encoded.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[b0b]

I looked on Journey Planner (the replacement for RJIS) earlier for this and it quite clearly said that St Pancras - Chelmsford via Stratford International was not a valid route, just as I'd expect.

I'd love to hear by what reason it is not valid, for I am unable to see why!

It is disgusting that the data we require to determine the validity of the ticket is not available to us, unless we're willing to pay hundreds for an RJIS feed...


I believe it to be valid due to:
(a) there is no +HS1/Not HS1 fare in Avantix, supposedly authoritive for fare data;
(b) the distance travelled is not more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route I can find.
(c) the ticket is Route: Any Permitted

.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well it let me out and back in at St Pancras!

That might be a little different, it let you out to end the LU part of the journey, and let you back in at St Pancras so you could begin (or not as the case may be) your NR journey?

.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I guess the way to figure this out would be for the OP to try again and if he gets declined, ask the SE staff to excess the ticket to be valid on HS1 and see what happens?

.

 

[gchst]

I think it needs +HS1 but they normaly just sell you an extra supplement.

 

[barrykas]

I'd love to hear by what reason it is not valid, for I am unable to see why!

Looking at the list of easements in the Routeing Guide, I've just found the following which seems to settle the matter:

600069 - Customers travelling from Stratford Domestic(sic) station to London St Pancras may not travel via Stratford International. This easement applies in both directions.

Seems pretty definitive to me, even if it is badly worded.

I believe it to be valid due to:
(a) there is no +HS1/Not HS1 fare in Avantix, supposedly authoritive for fare data;

Southeastern have only created "Plus High Speed" fares for 'relevant' flows, and they can't go round creating fares willy nilly where the "base" fares are set by another operator!

(b) the distance travelled is not more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route I can find.

That I do agree with...Although the introduction of the new software that produces the eNRT has put paid to verification of timetabled mileages, and there's no mileage recorded on TRUST for St Pancras International to Stratford International.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[yorkie]

Seems pretty definitive to me, even if it is badly worded.

But you don't need to consult that if it's valid as part of the shortest route, surely?

 

[b0b]

Originally Posted by Rail Settlement Plan
600069 - Customers travelling from Stratford Domestic(sic) station to London St Pancras may not travel via Stratford International. This easement applies in both directions.

The OP is not travelling from Stratford Domestic to London, they are travelling from London to Chelmsford. I can't see how this easement would apply, even if the route is not permitted by the shortest route rule.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Southeastern have only created "Plus High Speed" fares for 'relevant' flows, and they can't go round creating fares willy nilly where the "base" fares are set by another operator!

I can't see where SE can go around willy nilly and say, sir, you can't use that shiny new train because company X didn't charge you enough for that ticket! That is something SE needs to sort out with the other TOC/ATOC, and not arbitrarily decide it at the St Pancras gateline.

And it also has the issue that how does the customer know whether the ticket they are holding is valid on HS1, if they can't count on "Any Permitted".

 

[MikeWh]

The OP is not travelling from Stratford Domestic to London, they are travelling from London to Chelmsford. I can't see how this easement would apply, even if the route is not permitted by the shortest route rule.

They are travelling between London St Pancras and Stratford Domestic if they intend going on towards Chelmsford.

The issue of negative easements affecting routes where the routeing guide has not been used because it was not needed seems to be the big one here. It does seem as though there are quite a few entries that fall into this category. As an example, here is one affecting my local line:

44
Journeys from or via London and via Crayford and Slade Green, Slade Green and Barnehurst or Barnehurst and Crayford are not valid. This applies in both directions.

Throughout the day there are services that run via Crayford and Slade Green and are advertised as through trains looping between Cannon Street and Cannon Street. This means that you should be able to travel from London to Hither Green via Abbey Wood, but the easement suggests otherwise. But it's a direct train.

 

[Mojo]

Throughout the day there are services that run via Crayford and Slade Green and are advertised as through trains looping between Cannon Street and Cannon Street. This means that you should be able to travel from London to Hither Green via Abbey Wood, but the easement suggests otherwise. But it's a direct train.

This is an issue which has cropped up a few times in the past (originally relating to negative easements on the Fife Circle) and the general consensus seemed to be that they are unenforcable as, following section A of the RG someone would have no reason to read the easements unless they have exhausted all other options within the RG.

 

[MikeWh]

This is an issue which has cropped up a few times in the past (originally relating to negative easements on the Fife Circle) and the general consensus seemed to be that they are unenforcable as, following section A of the RG someone would have no reason to read the easements unless they have exhausted all other options within the RG.

So what we're saying is that the easement which prohibits travel from Stratford Domestic to St Pancras via Stratford International should be unenforceable because the route is permitted by being less than 3 miles longer than the route to Liverpool Street. But the machines and indeed staff at St Pancras did try to enforce the easement.

 

[Mojo]

So what we're saying is that the easement which prohibits travel from Stratford Domestic to St Pancras via Stratford International should be unenforceable because the route is permitted by being less than 3 miles longer than the route to Liverpool Street. But the machines and indeed staff at St Pancras did try to enforce the easement.

I was under the impression that Stratford International (aka. STRATFORD INT SE) and Stratford Domestic (aka. STRATFORD LONDON) were two separate stations, and thus a ticket from Stratford Domestic would not be valid from Stratford International.

In normal circumstances (assuming no break of journey restrictions apply), there is nothing wrong with me buying a ticket from X to Z, walking X - Y and then taking the train Y - Z, this assuming the railway line is X ---> Y ---> Z. Putting in real station names here, Stratford Domestic is X, Stratford Intl is Y and London (either Liverpool Street or St Pancras) is Z. However Stratford International isn't on the same line as Stratford Domestic.

Walking between stations on different lines (or using the free shuttle bus in the case of Stratford) is often allowed and sometimes compulsory, thus in the stages taken on your journey, separate lines can form a single route. However what if Stratford International was actually X, and thus came before Stratford Domestic?

 

[MikeWh]

They are, but they're linked by a free (to valid ticket holders) bus service. That will probably stop once the DLR extension opens though.

 

[Mojo]

I've just added an update to my post #41 above since you added your reply, Mike.

Given that both Stratford International and Stratford London are both listed as separate stations within the RG, the issue in my mind is, on a non-physical route with three stations, is Stratford International closer or further away from London than Stratford Domestic? Bear in mind that the physical railway infrastructure does not exist in reality! Going on the fares and everything else, I would say that Stratford International is intended to be further away from London and thus a ticket from Stratford Domestic would not be valid there.

 

[b0b]

They are travelling between London St Pancras and Stratford Domestic if they intend going on towards Chelmsford.

true:- but then the easement does not apply since they are not travelling to/from Stratford Domestic.

There are plenty of easements that allow doubling back typically from/to stations that have very poor service to one of their routeing points

That does not allow people to double back from other stations, even if they would travel through a station that benefits from such easement.

Your own example demonstrates it, note that it uses the phrase 'from or via'!

 

[W-on-Sea]

I notice that the Avantix lists higher +HS1 fares for fares from numerous NXEA stations (certainly on the Southend Victoria branch, not sure about the main line : e.g. SDR £27.40 from Southend Vic plus High Speed, compared with normal £23.10) to London Terminals. Certainly charging a special fare to travel on that line (even if only from Stratford Int to St P) seems to be in line, too, with the prohibition of travelcards there.

As we all know, there's nothing logical or consistent about rail ticket pricing in this country....

Edit: Just checked - higher fares for Chelmsford to London "plus High Speed" ARE also listed, some with various restrictions

 

[b0b]

Edit: Just checked - higher fares for Chelmsford to London "plus High Speed" ARE also listed, some with various restrictions

They are not showing in NFM06, at last not on my copy!

.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think the Southeastern site supports the OP, since he holds a ANY PERMITTED that goes beyond London Terminals....

http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/tickets-and-fares/ticket-types/157/

Supplements
If you have a ticket to London Terminals, an outboundary** Travelcard ticket or you hold a Season ticket, you can upgrade to high speed services by paying a supplement in addition to your current ticket.

For example, a ticket from Margate to St Pancras International would require a supplement in order to travel on the high speed service between Ashford and St Pancras International.

High speed ticket details
The following ticket descriptions entitle you to travel on high speed services:

PLUS HIGH SPEED – this is shown on either a walk up or supplement ticket.
UPGRADE + HS – this is shown on a supplement ticket and must be accompanied by a Southeastern ticket that is not valid on high speed services.
ANY PERMITTED - in the case of long distance through tickets, i.e. destinations beyond St Pancras.

 

[MikeWh]

I think the Southeastern site supports the OP, since he holds a ANY PERMITTED that goes beyond London Terminals....

http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/tickets-and-fares/ticket-types/157/

Supplements
If you have a ticket to London Terminals, an outboundary** Travelcard ticket or you hold a Season ticket, you can upgrade to high speed services by paying a supplement in addition to your current ticket.

For example, a ticket from Margate to St Pancras International would require a supplement in order to travel on the high speed service between Ashford and St Pancras International.

High speed ticket details
The following ticket descriptions entitle you to travel on high speed services:

PLUS HIGH SPEED – this is shown on either a walk up or supplement ticket.
UPGRADE + HS – this is shown on a supplement ticket and must be accompanied by a Southeastern ticket that is not valid on high speed services.
ANY PERMITTED - in the case of long distance through tickets, i.e. destinations beyond St Pancras.

Except that U1 is a special ticket closely tied to the valid London terminals and it looks like the OP had a ticket which only allowed Liverpool Street. There might be a higher fare allowing travel via HS1 and St Pancras which would be valid; in the same way that W-on-sea found higher fares from NXEA stations to London. I don't have any fare software or CDs though, so I can't check.

 

[W-on-Sea]

They are not showing in NFM06, at last not on my copy!

.

Errrrrr... Good point. I only have NFM05

But.... Searching for "London to Chelmsford" on the NXEA ticket-purchasing website, then selecting "other options" DOES bring up extra "Plus High Speed" tickets for a London to Chelmsford journey (after you select the misleadingly named link " Click here to check if slower routes with cheaper tickets are available.")

(Super off-peak Day Return "any permitted" (presumably not valid on HS1 - £12.30; Super off-peak Day Return "plus High Speed" - £17.10)

However...when you then select "Check for trains" for any of these plus HS options, the only response is that none are available.

(Similarly, trying to buy a ticket from St Pancras International to Chelmsford via Stratford International turns up no valid tickets)

It's all as clear as mud

 

[yorkie]

I wonder how much money is spent desperately trying to prevent a handful of people doing St Pancras - Stratford on nearly empty trains? (OK, I'm exaggerating slightly, but I have a point!)

How much time and money was spent on over-complicating the Routeing Guide to end up with a system that is less clear than if they had simply put HS1 as a normal permitted route like any other line?

If HS2 is going to be like this, I will oppose it and would rather the money was spent on the existing network!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've just added an update to my post #41 above since you added your reply, Mike.

Given that both Stratford International and Stratford London are both listed as separate stations within the RG, the issue in my mind is, on a non-physical route with three stations, is Stratford International closer or further away from London than Stratford Domestic? Bear in mind that the physical railway infrastructure does not exist in reality! Going on the fares and everything else, I would say that Stratford International is intended to be further away from London and thus a ticket from Stratford Domestic would not be valid there.

But, explain this then...

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=28492&page=2

....It seems it is going to be cheaper to change at Stratford for Liverpool Street. I contacted the Southeastern ticket office at Ebbsfleet today and received a call back earlier. Their system is allowing to purchase a train only season ticket to Liverpool Street. The person at the office recommends to try the journey with a return ticket first before committing for the season ticket. I also submitted an enquiry on Southeastern website. I will let you know the reply.

 

[MikeWh]

It has some logic. If International is deemed further out from London than Domestic then it is ok to change from International to Domestic when going towards London, but not from Domestic to International.

 

[John @ home]

I think you have to look at what a permitted route actually is Yorkie.

The shortest route
On a direct train
As listed in the NRG

That's not a complete list. A Permitted Route is

• a direct service advertised in the National Rail Timetable between the origin and destination printed on the ticket [NRG page A1], or
• the shortest route which has a regular scheduled train service, calculated by reference to the National Rail Timetable [NRG pages A1, A2, F12 and F15], or
• a route which is longer than the shortest route by no more than 3 miles [NRG pages F7 and F9], or
• when origin and destination have a routeing point in common, the route followed by direct trains to and from the common routeing point if the journey is made on those trains [NRG page F7], or
• a mapped route given by the National Routeing Guide [NRG page F9], or
• a route permitted by an easement [NRG page F10]

unless it is

• a route prohibited by an easement [NRG page F10].

I don't know if HS1 is even in the NRG

Try map HS.

I know London Terminals to Chelmsford (using Shenfield as the RP) only gives the direct route from Liverpool Street (map CO).

Agreed. The mapped route between London Group and Chelmsford uses Shenfield as the appropriate Routeing Point for Chelmsford, and is shown on map CO, which permits Shenfield - Romford - Stratford - London Liverpool Street.

is it the shortest route???

Due to an error, distances do not appear in the current copy of the National Rail Timetable. Assuming that none of the relevant stations have moved in recent months, we know from the previous edition that:

• Chelmsford - Shenfield - Romford - Stratford - London Liverpool Street = 29.75 miles.
• Chelmsford - Shenfield - Romford - Stratford = 25.75 miles

HS1 distances have not yet been included in an edition of the National Rail Timetable, but are in Quail's Railway Track Diagrams. This shows that Stratford - HS1 - London St Pancras International = 9.403km. This is 5 miles 67 chains or, rounding to the nearest quarter mile in the style of the National Rail Timetable, 5.75 miles. So

• Chelmsford - Shenfield - Romford - Stratford - HS1 - London St Pancras International = 31.5 miles.

This is "a route which is longer than the shortest route by no more than 3 miles". Therefore Chelmsford - Shenfield - Romford - Stratford - HS1 - London St Pancras International is a Permitted Route between Chelmsford and London Group.

 

[bb21]

It has some logic. If International is deemed further out from London than Domestic then it is ok to change from International to Domestic when going towards London, but not from Domestic to International.

But is it? A Bedford - Stratford London Route +Any Permitted SDR is valid for travel via St Pancras and Stratford Int SE on HS1. I'm not sure Stratford Int is classed as further out from London than Domestic.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Hairy Handed Fool, thank you for confirming that a Zone U1 (or similar) ticket is considered as an add on to a London Terminals ticket. Please could you tell me, are through fares such as sail-rail and bus links treated in the same way....

Plusbus is an add-on which is automatically added to the fare to the interchange station by most ticketing systems when asked for (for example Chester+Bus is the Plus bus add-on to the Chester fare. Other bus links that I know of are add-ons, although there are a lot of them to look through.

Shipping links vary. IOW, the Hebrides, Orkney, Shetland and Thames Clipper fares are add-ons, the rest are seperate through fares as far as I can see.

Is that a bit of the FRPP the public don't have access to? And which is contradicted by the information given by SouthEastern when the ticket was sold?

I haven't seen the contents of the NFM06 CD, so I can't say.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That's not a complete list. A Permitted Route is

a direct service advertised in the National Rail Timetable between the origin and destination printed on the ticket [NRG page A1], or....

Which I believe I mentioned.

the shortest route which has a regular scheduled train service, calculated by reference to the National Rail Timetable [NRG pages A1, A2, F12 and F15], or....

Which I believe I mentioned.

a route which is longer than the shortest route by no more than 3 miles [NRG pages F7 and F9], or....

Which is in the NRG that I believe I mentioned.*

when origin and destination have a routeing point in common, the route followed by direct trains to and from the common routeing point if the journey is made on those trains [NRG page F7], or....

Which is in the NRG that I believe I mentioned.

a mapped route given by the National Routeing Guide [NRG page F9], or....

Which is in the NRG that I believe I mentioned.

a route permitted by an easement [NRG page F10]....

Which is in the NRG that I believe I mentioned.

unless it is
a route prohibited by an easement [NRG page F10]....

Which is in the NRG that I believe I mentioned.

[*I see you did not mention section A there, whereas you did earlier in the post. Is that because the "Routeing Guide Instructions" (section A) does not mention the "within 3 miles" part? If so, do you believe the "The National Routeing Guide in Detail" (henceforth refered to as "TNRGiD") section over-rides it?]

Try map HS....

I said that because I had had no need to check if it was there or not.

....This is "a route which is longer than the shortest route by no more than 3 miles". Therefore Chelmsford - Shenfield - Romford - Stratford - HS1 - London St Pancras International is a Permitted Route between Chelmsford and London Group.

I don't want start a riot here, but just for reference (again) the "within three miles" bit isn't in the instructions of the NRG, but even if it is to be allowed, someone has already mentioned a negative easement...

600069 - Customers travelling from Stratford Domestic to St Pancras may not travel via Stratford International. This easement applies in both directions.

Now, page F10 ("TNRGiD") says that easements can restrict permitted routes. I don't think it is very well worded because it either means the easements apply to the shortest route, direct trains and anything alllowed by the NRG, or it means only routes not allowed by those rules. If it is the latter, why do we have restrictive easements?

It therefore must mean that we apply them to all routes (this would seem to put it in conflict with NCoC Condition 13). So, if we want to travel from St Pancras to Stratford Domestic, we can't go via Stratford International.

Here is the real problem though, it doesn't say "Stratford Domestic and/or beyond", so what does "travelling from [or to] Stratford Domestic" actually mean?

If we go from St Pancras to Chelmsford via Stratford International, are we not travelling to Stratford Domestic along the way? After all, the easement is not specific to starting or finishing our journey there, is it?

But if we are to say that travelling is from the start of your journey to the end of your journey, then surely you are not travelling from/to Stratford Domestic, are you?

As with other terms losely used, "travelling" is not defined by the NRG.

So if the restriction on travelling to/from St Pancras is not covered in the tickets conditions or the NCoC, some questions remain unanswered....

Is the easement even applicable to our journey?

Can the restriction in the FRPP (about tickets to London Terminals on HS1) be enforced?

Does Section A of the NRG over-ride the "TNRGiD" section in terms of "the shortest route" or vice versa?

The original 'paper' National Routeing Guide was quite clear that easements were to allow additional routes, not to restrict them, and that the shortest route was only the shortest route, something that has beome lost over time, to it's detriment.

I think ATOC and everyone else involved in the NRG need to re-write it, or just correct it, and quickly.

 

[barrykas]

They are not showing in NFM06, at last not on my copy!

Having just done a bit of experimentation with the Fares Finder in "The Manual", it seems that you have to enter St Pancras (NLC 1555) as the origin, rather than London Terminals, to get fares via HS1.

Restriction codes are the same as the London Terminals tickets, though there doesn't appear to be a Season Ticket for the journey.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[b0b]

But if we are to say that travelling is from the start of your journey to the end of your journey, then surely you are not travelling from/to Stratford Domestic, are you?

As with other terms losely used, "travelling" is not defined by the NRG.

So if the restriction on travelling to/from St Pancras is not covered in the tickets conditions or the NCoC, some questions remain unanswered....

Is the easement even applicable to our journey?

I think the easement is not applicable because your origin/destination is not Stratford Domestic, 2 reasons I believe this

(a) the easement does not say from or via, it just says from. there are many easements that say either via, or from & via.

If the easement said this instead:
Customers travelling from or via Stratford Domestic to St Pancras may not travel via Stratford International. This easement applies in both directions.

Actually to totally clarify the situation:
Customers travelling via Stratford Domestic may not travel via Stratford International on tickets routed "Any Permitted". This easement applies in both directions.

then I would say it would have to be considered in the debate whether easements affect shortest route journeys.

(b) There are easements to relax doubling-back restrictions from numerous stations that are poorly served to certain routing points. I don't think its intended that those easements are intended to permit doubling back on any service that calls at or passes through those stations.

so my stance is that "from" means the origin of a journey, and "via" refers to a point en-route during a journey.

 

[paul1609]

I wonder how much money is spent desperately trying to prevent a handful of people doing St Pancras - Stratford on nearly empty trains? (OK, I'm exaggerating slightly, but I have a point!)


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But, explain this then...

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=28492&page=2

Yorkie,
I think you have little experience of travel on HS1.
Trains via Ashford are already exceeding their traffic forecasts inside a year of opening.
Peak time departures are now usually standing from Ashford as are the first couple of trains on which off peak tickets are valid. Travel during the day is very healthy at 75 to 80% full.

What has not yet reached expectations are the North Kent Services which are running at well below expectations.

Neither Ebbsfleet or Stratford stations at the present time generate significant traffic for HS1.

 

[CompactDstrxion]

Wonder if HS1 loadings would be so healthy if they hadn't slashed the classic route services.

 

[MikeWh]

What has not yet reached expectations are the North Kent Services which are running at well below expectations.

Neither Ebbsfleet or Stratford stations at the present time generate significant traffic for HS1.

The problem with the North Kent service is that the time savings are minimal unless you are travelling from Strood, Higham or Gravesend. In fact Gravesend is really the only serious winner on the North Kent stretch. As for Ebbsfleet and Stratford; one is in the middle of nowhere while the other is in the middle of a building site. What do they expect?

 

[paul1609]

Wonder if HS1 loadings would be so healthy if they hadn't slashed the classic route services.

Ashford hasnt really been that badly affected in my opinion, the via Tonbridge services are now every station to Tonbridge and the Maidstone services have gone from half hourly to hourly.

Given that we have gained an extra 2 services to St Pancras per hour I'd say that was well balanced.

The 2 tph to Victoria (via maidstone) was probably pretty generous anyway these services were never much used by people travelling to London from Ashford.