Routeing guide update 9 Oct 2013

RJ · 9 Oct 2013

The Group Stations document has changed.

Within the London Group, Bethnal Green has been replaced with Vauxhall. Shortlands has been removed from the Bromley South Group and Gomshall has been removed from the Dorking Group.

New groups have appeared but more have either disappeared or had stations removed - it would seem that some TOCs objected to the rights that passengers had to double back to stations with a better service other principle stations in some cases.

RailUK Forums

Eagle · 9 Oct 2013

Map WN has two Glasgows, although in this case the geography makes it clear that one's supposed to represent Queen Street and Central separately.

Similarly a lot of maps involving south London have several Londons, where previously alll the various terminals were labelled separately.

tsr · 9 Oct 2013

Eagle said:
Similarly a lot of maps involving south London have several Londons, where previously alll the various terminals were labelled separately.

And Map OV is just lazy now...

Goatboy · 10 Oct 2013

Worcester Group to Paisley Gilmour Street used to be valid via the ECML and Edinburgh.

Now, it seems the only valid route is via maps HG+GO which restricts you only to the WCML.

However:

a) Worcester Group to Glasgow Group (Which as we all know is a stones throw from Paisley Gilmour Street) is still valid via the ECML
b) Cheltenham Spa to Paisley Gilmour Street is still valid via the ECML even though both this journey and Worcester Group to Paisley intersect from Bromsgrove to Birmingham New Street. It therefore makes no sense that journeys from Worcester Group are barred from the ECML on an Any Permitted ticket but journeys from Cheltenham Spa are not.

What gives?

RJ · 10 Oct 2013

There are some intrinsic issues with forcing the use of a website like NRE to define permitted routes.

1. How do I define the permitted routes between Polesworth and Denton?

2. How do you define permitted routes for tickets which NRE does not show?

Unless the site can be use to determine routes for any possible ticket, I can't see it holding up for very long as a compulsory tool for route checking.

Goatboy · 10 Oct 2013

It'll refuse to show some obviously permitted itinieries simply because the wait between trains is too long or because there is a quicker service for no additional cost or with less changes which it prefers to show you instead. Annoying.

Eagle · 10 Oct 2013

RJ said:
The Group Stations document has changed.

Full list of group station changes:

Bletchley group no longer exists; Bletchley and Milton Keynes are now separate routeing points.
Bromley South group no longer includes Shortlands, which is now a separate routeing point.
Dorking group no longer includes Gomshall.
Dumbarton Central group is a new group including Dalreoch.
Ealing Broadway group is a new group including West Ealing.
Earlestown is now a group, including Newton-le-Willows.
Glasgow group no longer includes Springburn, which is now a separate routeing point.
Hackney group no longer exists; Downs and Wick are now separate routeing points.
Hellifield group no longer exists; only Hellifield becomes a routeing point, Long Preston does not.
Kirckaldy group no longer exists; only Kirkcaldy becomes a routeing point, Markinch does not.
London group no longer includes Bethnal Green; but now includes Vauxhall.
Loughborough group no longer exists; only Loughborough becomes a routeing point, Sileby and Barrow do not.
Manchester group no longer includes Salford Crescent, which is now a separate routeing point.
Penzance group is a new group including St Erth.
Sheffield group no longer exists; only Sheffield becomes a routeing point, Dore does not.
Southend group no longer exists; none of the stations become routeing points.
Tottenham group no longer exists; Seven Sisters and Tottenham Hale become separate routeing points, South Tottenham does not.
Troon group is a new group including Prestwick Town and Airport.
Walthamstow group no longer exists; only Central becomes a routeing point, Queens Road and Blackhorse Road do not.
West Hampstead group is now considered to be a single station routeing point.
Weybridge group is a new group including Byfleet & New Haw.
Wilmslow group no longer includes Manchester Airport or Heald Green.

And just to round it off, the new routeing points not mentioned above are: Accrington, Alexandra Palace, Aylesbury, Bellgrove, Blackheath, Bromsgrove, Cheadle Hulme, Cheshunt, Crianlarich, Dalmuir, Dingwall, Fort William, Gospel Oak, Grays, Hyndland, Kilwinning, Kirkham & Wesham, Liskeard, Llandudno Junction, Motspur Park, Mount Florida, New Malden, Newton Abbot, Northampton, Nunhead, Oxenholme, Par, Partick, Pitsea, Port Glasgow, Princes Risborough, Raynes Park, Shortlands, South Ruislip, Surrey Quays, Truro, Upminster, Westerton, Whitland, Wickford.

Deleted routeing points are West Ham (needless since the Silvertown branch closed), West Ruislip (replaced by South Ruislip), and Winchester (needless as it is not located near a junction); as well as the aforementioned removal of all trace of Southend stations (replaced by Wickford and Pitsea).

I think that's it; feel free to point out any mistakes!

yorkie · 10 Oct 2013

RJ said:
The Group Stations document has changed.

Within the London Group, Bethnal Green has been replaced with Vauxhall. Shortlands has been removed from the Bromley South Group and Gomshall has been removed from the Dorking Group.

New groups have appeared but more have either disappeared or had stations removed - it would seem that some TOCs objected to the rights that passengers had to double back to stations with a better service other principle stations in some cases.

Well the DfT must be happy with these changes, as they must have approved it (as the law requires). Perhaps someone can pop in an FOI request?

And Passenger Focus have to be consulted to, I wonder if they have any views on it? (they are also subject to FOI).

PermitToTravel · 10 Oct 2013

Eagle said:
Full list of group station changes:

Bletchley group no longer exists; Bletchley and Milton Keynes are now separate routeing points.

Bromley South group no longer includes Shortlands, which is now a separate routeing point.

Dorking group no longer includes Gomshall.

Dumbarton Central group is a new group including Dalreoch.

Ealing Broadway group is a new group including West Ealing.

Earlestown is now a group, including Newton-le-Willows.

Glasgow group no longer includes Springburn, which is now a separate routeing point.

Hackney group no longer exists; Downs and Wick are now separate routeing points.

Hellifield group no longer exists; only Hellifield becomes a routeing point, Long Preston does not.

Kirckaldy group no longer exists; only Kirkcaldy becomes a routeing point, Markinch does not.

London group no longer includes Bethnal Green; but now includes Vauxhall.

Loughborough group no longer exists; only Loughborough becomes a routeing point, Sileby and Barrow do not.

Manchester group no longer includes Salford Crescent, which is now a separate routeing point.

Penzance group is a new group including St Erth.

Sheffield group no longer exists; only Sheffield becomes a routeing point, Dore does not.

Southend group no longer exists; none of the stations become routeing points.

Tottenham group no longer exists; Seven Sisters and Tottenham Hale become separate routeing points, South Tottenham does not.

Troon group is a new group including Prestwick Town and Airport.

Walthamstow group no longer exists; only Central becomes a routeing point, Queens Road and Blackhorse Road do not.

West Hampstead group is now considered to be a single station routeing point.

Weybridge group is a new group including Byfleet & New Haw.

Wilmslow group no longer includes Manchester Airport or Heald Green.

And just to round it off, the new routeing points not mentioned above are: Accrington, Alexandra Palace, Aylesbury, Bellgrove, Blackheath, Bromsgrove, Cheadle Hulme, Cheshunt, Crianlarich, Dalmuir, Dingwall, Fort William, Gospel Oak, Grays, Hyndland, Kilwinning, Kirkham & Wesham, Liskeard, Llandudno Junction, Motspur Park, Mount Florida, New Malden, Newton Abbot, Northampton, Nunhead, Oxenholme, Par, Partick, Pitsea, Port Glasgow, Princes Risborough, Raynes Park, Shortlands, South Ruislip, Surrey Quays, Truro, Upminster, Westerton, Whitland, Wickford.

Deleted routeing points are West Ham (needless since the Silvertown branch closed), West Ruislip (replaced by South Ruislip), and Winchester (needless as it is not located near a junction); as well as the aforementioned removal of all trace of Southend stations (replaced by Wickford and Pitsea).

I think that's it; feel free to point out any mistakes!

Greenford is also no longer a routeing point; sensible, as since 1963 it only has a platform on one line, a dead end

Eagle · 10 Oct 2013

fahadsadah said:
Greenford is also no longer a routeing point; sensible, as since 1963 it only has a platform on one line, a dead end

Doesn't stop map RG showing a route from Ealing Broadway to South Ruislip via Greenford. (And no, the Central line doesn't count.)

telstarbox · 10 Oct 2013

I noticed this on the ATOC website:

PLEASE NOTE [the NRG] is of necessity a complex document and the Journey Planner should be used to validate any intended route (including relevant via points) to ensure that it can be used with your ticket. This is especially necessary if using this guide to identify whether an indirect or unusual route is valid for use.

tractakid · 10 Oct 2013

telstarbox said:
I noticed this on the ATOC website:

As did I, although it only mentions the word 'should'.

mikeg · 10 Oct 2013

Some of the easements are overly strict, in particular this one:

300213 Customers travelling from Saltburn to York may not travel via Darlington. This easement applies in both directions.

So remind me, what is the point of having an 'any permitted' and 'not via Darlington' set of tickets available?

This is another very reasonable and historically valid route that has been withdrawn.

And some are more redundant than ever:

700416 Customers travelling via Leeds to Thirsk, may travel via York. This easement applies in both directions.

Well I should hope so!

Eagle · 10 Oct 2013

I can think of a few ways you can get from Leeds to Thirsk without passing through York. (None of them are permitted routes, of course.)

34D · 10 Oct 2013

Eagle said:
I can think of a few ways you can get from Leeds to Thirsk without passing through York. (None of them are permitted routes, of course.)

Via Ripon? Are ATOC reopening that line?

I have a question/suggestion for the forum mods: this is a major change, as we are realising. Is there a way that some kind of advert can be added to all FTR posts saying "new routeing guide from Oct 2013 - the advice in this old thread may no longer be current. Please recheck"

I would also suggest a mass-PM to all 20,000 users advising them of this fundamental change.

embers25 · 10 Oct 2013

London to Shotton routes are all new maps but pretty much the same as before which seems a little pointless. I did like Map LC "London to Cheshire and
North Wales" yet they deleted any route west of Crewe so is impossible to get to North Wales on.

Eagle · 10 Oct 2013

Yeah, there are a few routes where they've chopped the map in half (presumably because of a range of new maps replacing it) but forgotten to update the title. Worst offender is map WX, which claims to show routes to the Westcountry but doesn't get further out of the capital than Reading and Woking.

John @ home · 10 Oct 2013

Eagle said:
Full list of group station changes: ...

Manchester group no longer includes Salford Crescent, which is now a separate routeing point.

Manchester Group is defined as including Salford Crescent on page 1 of the 9 October 2013 edition of the Glossary.

mikeg said:
Some of the easements are overly strict, in particular this one:

300213 Customers travelling from Saltburn to York may not travel via Darlington. This easement applies in both directions.

Click to expand...

So remind me, what is the point of having an 'any permitted' and 'not via Darlington' set of tickets available?

This is another very reasonable and historically valid route that has been withdrawn.

It's clearly an error. Until it's sorted, for flexible tickets buy Saltburn - Church Fenton instead. Due to clustering Saltburn - York and Saltburn - Church Fenton fares are identical and all Saltburn - Church Fenton flexible fares allow break of journey and ending/starting at York.

For Advance Saltburn - York fares, the restriction in the Route field (XC &CONNECTIONS) forces a journey via Darlington despite the negative Easement.

Note that Easement 600080 allows Route NOT VIA DARLNGTN tickets to be used via Darlington on 5 specific trains.

Eagle · 10 Oct 2013

John @ home said:
For Advance Saltburn - York fares, the restriction in the Route field (XC &CONNECTIONS) forces a journey via Darlington despite the negative Easement.

Unless engineering works mean that XC are stopping additionally at Northallerton (which did happen one recent weekend).

Puffing Devil · 10 Oct 2013

Why do we have two maps Reading to York (RH+RY) with one map not featuring York at all? :lol:

I'm glad they proof read this before publishing......

ainsworth74 · 10 Oct 2013

mikeg said:
So remind me, what is the point of having an 'any permitted' and 'not via Darlington' set of tickets available?

This is another very reasonable and historically valid route that has been withdrawn.

John @ home said:
It's clearly an error. Until it's sorted, for flexible tickets buy Saltburn - Church Fenton instead. Due to clustering Saltburn - York and Saltburn - Church Fenton fares are identical and all Saltburn - Church Fenton flexible fares allow break of journey and ending/starting at York.

It's an error and one that hasn't been implemented as NRE and EC are both happy to sell tickets (well NRE will direct you to someone else to buy them of course) Saltburn - York via Darlington.

I wonder if it's a hack for something else?

Also there won't be a single guard that wouldn't accept Saltburn to York via Darlington!

Goatboy · 10 Oct 2013

Goatboy said:
Worcester Group to Paisley Gilmour Street used to be valid via the ECML and Edinburgh.

Now, it seems the only valid route is via maps HG+GO which restricts you only to the WCML.

However:

a) Worcester Group to Glasgow Group (Which as we all know is a stones throw from Paisley Gilmour Street) is still valid via the ECML
b) Cheltenham Spa to Paisley Gilmour Street is still valid via the ECML even though both this journey and Worcester Group to Paisley intersect from Bromsgrove to Birmingham New Street. It therefore makes no sense that journeys from Worcester Group are barred from the ECML on an Any Permitted ticket but journeys from Cheltenham Spa are not.

What gives?

This one is even more annoying than I thought as Birmingham to Paisley or Troon group is valid via the ECML yet Worcester to Paisley or Troon group is not. All permitted routes from Worcester Group pass THROUGH Birmingham, so where is the logic in that?

Presumably if one wishes to travel from Worcester to a member of these groups via the ECML they must now purchase two seperate tickets - a return to Birmingham and then a return from Birmingham to the intended destination (Bromsgrove is also valid via the ECML, so I guess you could split there too).

Utter madness.

FenMan · 10 Oct 2013

The removal of Farnborough Group and the additional instruction that NRE is the "bible" for establishing valid routes causes a problem.

I occasionally travel from Blackwater to Cambridge or King's Lynn and usually go via Reading/Paddington.

NRE now refuses to display the normal return fares for this routeing, yet does return the correct results if the journey is changed so that Wokingham (now a routeing point for journeys from Blackwater) is the start point.

The fares from Blackwater and Wokingham are the same, so no issue there.

In practice I suspect I won't have any problems, but the letter of the law says differently. Irritating.

swt_passenger · 10 Oct 2013

The chap who emailed SWT about Fareham to Basingstoke via Salisbury may be interested to find out that the only route now permitted is now via Eastleigh, using new Map XR. This is a very simple map based on routes via Eastleigh, and now doesn't even allow travel via Southampton Central (as far as I can work out).

Could someone please check this if they get the time? I'd always assumed Southampton was an acceptable 'via point' for routes from Fareham via Southampton towards Basingstoke and London, but it may no longer be true.

soil · 10 Oct 2013

FenMan said:
The removal of Farnborough Group and the additional instruction that NRE is the "bible" for establishing valid routes causes a problem.

According to the Routeing Points Table, Farnborough Main and North are both routeing points.

I'm not 100% sure, but I think removing this group is a good thing, because it means that you don't have to transfer on foot between the two stations.

I occasionally travel from Blackwater to Cambridge or King's Lynn and usually go via Reading/Paddington.

NRE now refuses to display the normal return fares for this routeing, yet does return the correct results if the journey is changed so that Wokingham (now a routeing point for journeys from Blackwater) is the start point.

The fares from Blackwater and Wokingham are the same, so no issue there.

In practice I suspect I won't have any problems, but the letter of the law says differently. Irritating.

It's clearly an error. I suspect remnants of the Farnborough routeing group lingers somewhere in the code. Blackwater was once a part of that group, and they probably forgot that when they were cleaning up.

Wanborough - Cambridge works fine via Guildford.

Given the way they have performed this 'upgrade', there must be many thousands of similar such errors, which will no doubt cause customers no end of hassle.

cuccir · 10 Oct 2013

They maps now permit travel Darlington - Lancaster Group via the Caldverale Line, so some sense installed there!

soil · 10 Oct 2013

swt_passenger said:
The chap who emailed SWT about Fareham to Basingstoke via Salisbury may be interested to find out that the only route now permitted is now via Eastleigh, using new Map XR. This is a very simple map based on routes via Eastleigh, and now doesn't even allow travel via Southampton Central (as far as I can work out).

Could someone please check this if they get the time? I'd always assumed Southampton was an acceptable 'via point' for routes from Fareham via Southampton towards Basingstoke and London, but it may no longer be true.

That's correct. You are no longer permitted to travel via Southampton.

Just for the benefit of anyone else, the service between Fareham and Basingstoke looks like this:

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/FRM/BSK/tomorrow/1215/dep

In other words there's an hourly direct service between Fareham and Basingstoke, and another hourly service via Southampton. If you miss the direct service then the via Southampton service is half-an-hour quicker than waiting for the next direct train.

But you can't go that way on a Fareham - Basingstoke ticket any more.

So much for passengers wanting the quickest route.

swt_passenger · 10 Oct 2013

Also, what makes me think that is purely a knee jerk reaction to the earlier Fareham - Basingstoke via Salisbury complaint, is that if you are going via Basingstoke to Reading, (and further) then travel via Southampton Central still seems to be OK.

On the face of it, map XR also deals with Portsmouth Group to Reading, but that can still use MW, MW+CW, or MW+PD - and XR isn't mentioned...

I suspect what they should have done was include a line from Fareham to Southampton on map XR. That would provide for reasonable connections without including Salisbury, which I expect was the purpose...

deltic · 10 Oct 2013

soil said:
That's correct. You are no longer permitted to travel via Southampton.

Just for the benefit of anyone else, the service between Fareham and Basingstoke looks like this:

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/FRM/BSK/tomorrow/1215/dep

In other words there's an hourly direct service between Fareham and Basingstoke, and another hourly service via Southampton. If you miss the direct service then the via Southampton service is half-an-hour quicker than waiting for the next direct train.

But you can't go that way on a Fareham - Basingstoke ticket any more.

So much for passengers wanting the quickest route.

NRE still showing it as an acceptable route

swt_passenger · 10 Oct 2013

deltic said:
NRE still showing it as an acceptable route

They are not showing the same fare though, and that's the clincher...

SWT's own site reports 'no fares available' with a Southampton Central via point...

Routeing guide update 9 Oct 2013

Established Member

RailUK Forums

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Forum Staff

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Forum Staff

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member