‘Avanti to stop at-seat service from May 2023’

[Bletchleyite]

The problem with that is that there are an increasing number of services on which it's just impossible to even walk through the train, let alone carry food and drink (or push a trolley).

Other than XC and on Reading-Padd overcrowding on IC services isn't really endemic, and it's only those that can sustain catering in any class. If we get to the point where it is and we can't add capacity, compulsory reservations is the only solution (unpalatable though it is), and then you have nobody standing.

 

[dk1]

Other than XC overcrowding on IC services isn't really endemic, and it's only those that can sustain catering in any class. If we get to the point where it is and we can't add capacity, compulsory reservations is the only solution (unpalatable though it is), and then you have nobody standing.

Compulsory reservations would be a very sad day indeed. Thankfully I can not see that happening.

 

[HSTEd]

Other than XC and on Reading-Padd overcrowding on IC services isn't really endemic, and it's only those that can sustain catering in any class. If we get to the point where it is and we can't add capacity, compulsory reservations is the only solution (unpalatable though it is), and then you have nobody standing.

I'd much rather sacrifice catering than go to compulsory reservations.

Catering doesn't carry more passengers nor does it make the railway a significant amount of money.
Carrying more people does both.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd much rather sacrifice catering than go to compulsory reservations.

Catering doesn't carry more passengers nor does it make the railway a significant amount of money.
Carrying more people does both.

I don't think it's just about catering, rather it's about the fact that having people routinely stand for 2+ hours in crush load conditions is not acceptable, and there are three fixes for that - more capacity, crank fares up or CR (it's not really relevant to this thread which it should be). The catering situation just extrapolates from that.

 

[HSTEd]

I don't think it's just about catering, rather it's about the fact that having people routinely stand for 2+ hours in crush load conditions is not acceptable, and there are three fixes for that - more capacity, crank fares up or CR (it's not really relevant to this thread which it should be).

If it isn't acceptable, people won't do it! The fact that people will be routinely doing it indicates that people do find it acceptable to get where they want to go. Otherwise they would stop travelling by rail and switch to alternative transport, which is what the other mechanisms would force them to do anyway.

Crowding is the most sensible control measure available here, because it will maximise both revenue and the social licence to operate. The railway needs political support for its subsidies to be politically sustainable, the more people it carries, the more people have an interest in the railway continuing to operate.

 

[a1904]

I'm often startled at just how poor mobile data coverage is in when travelling around the UK by train; often within seconds of leaving a major station the signal drops off to nothing, even with a 5G enabled device on a decent network (Vodafone). On-train wifi suffers just the same of course, and that will always place limitations on how well any on board service relying on data or wifi is able to work. I wonder if LNER are just fortunate that their routes enjoy a broadly decent degree of coverage compared to Avanti? GWR will see similar hurdles no doubt in the west country in particular.

If you go on the Settle Carlisle line there's barely any bit between Settle and Carlisle where you have any sort of mobile data coverage

 

[dk1]

If you go on the Settle Carlisle line there's barely any bit between Settle and Carlisle where you have any sort of mobile data coverage

Sounds like heaven now & again.

 

[JamieL]

However bad the mobile phone coverage might be across the UK, I can't say I have ever suffered too much on the WCML. I am normally streaming radio or a film throughout the journey from data without any real issues. Let's not use that as an excuse for another Avanti failing please.

 

[TurbineEnginee]

There seems to be some debate about catering as a profit centre.

I think we’re losing sight of the customer.

There seems little doubt that the same number of passengers could be conveyed for lower cost if we didn’t include seats.

Some people travel without seats anyway. Ergo they are unnecessary.

I do think we need an aspiration for what the railway is supposed to be for.

Is it there to be a minimalistic grudge purchase for people who have no alternative. Transportation of last resort. Or is it supposed to be an attractive alternative to other forms of transportation?

Actually attracting more people to use your service need not be bad economics.

 

[Craig1122]

There seems to be some debate about catering as a profit centre.

I think we’re losing sight of the customer.

There seems little doubt that the same number of passengers could be conveyed for lower cost if we didn’t include seats.

Some people travel without seats anyway. Ergo they are unnecessary.

I do think we need an aspiration for what the railway is supposed to be for.

Is it there to be a minimalistic grudge purchase for people who have no alternative. Transportation of last resort. Or is it supposed to be an attractive alternative to other forms of transportation?

Actually attracting more people to use your service need not be bad economics.

Anglia always reckoned their catering was break even when considered in isolation but that it was part of an overall package that made rail more attractive and helped sell more tickets. Of course that was in the early days of privatisation when operators had some freedom to make commercial decisions like that, and in this case genuinely worked hard to provide an attractive service.

 

[island]

I think the problem is a vicious circle - passengers think catering provision is uncertain, so they bring their own refreshments on board, so they don't use the buffet or trolley even if they are available, so catering loses money and is reduced or withdrawn. I'm travelling on Avanti next week and I certainly won't be relying on there being catering on board.

This is what it comes down to.

 

[Djgr]

So how does this play out for our Standard Premium punters?

Presumably "premium" doesn't stretch as far as not having to leave the carriage to grab a coffee?

 

[Facing Back]

So how does this play out for our Standard Premium punters?

Presumably "premium" doesn't stretch as far as not having to leave the carriage to grab a coffee?

unless you bring a travel kettle and a small cafetierre with you, that’s how it sounds to me. But that doesn‘t sound any different from any standard premium travel I’ve taken on Avanti recently.

Sounds like heaven now & again.

I agree with that. Kick back and enjoy the views

 

[modernrail]

I never got it to work on several trips where I tried to use it. It either wouldn't connect. Or if I got as far as placing and order then it wouldn't complete and accept payment. Haven't bothered trying on recent trips.

Tried it many times. Not been able to connect any of those times.

 

[Parallel]

I’m not surprised Avanti are scrapping this. I’ve taken about 6 of their services since this has been rolled out and it’s not been available on any of them!

I rather think a full review for catering should take place on the network in my opinion. On GWR, they could easily remove catering from some routes (i.e Paddington to Bristol) as from my observations, they only seem to sell the odd hot drink on it and there is a cafe or facilities at every station on the route (including Chippenham!). There is no point providing something if it’s not being utilised.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I rather think a full review for catering should take place on the network in my opinion. On GWR, they could easily remove catering from some routes (i.e Paddington to Bristol) as from my observations, they only seem to sell the odd hot drink on it and there is a cafe or facilities at every station on the route (including Chippenham!). There is no point providing something if it’s not being utilised.

Up to about 2 hours most people would only want hot drinks anyway and can carry on a higher quality one than you will ever get from a trolley. I think it was the coming of premium coffee to the UK that basically signed their death knell - they were more attractive in the days when you'd only get Nescafe in a polystyrene cup pretty much wherever you bought it.

 

[Goldfish62]

I rather think a full review for catering should take place on the network in my opinion. On GWR, they could easily remove catering from some routes (i.e Paddington to Bristol) as from my observations, they only seem to sell the odd hot drink on it and there is a cafe or facilities at every station on the route (including Chippenham!). There is no point providing something if it’s not being utilised.

And then the spiral of decline will have reached its logical conclusion.

If you want to get rid of catering simply downgrade it to the extent that people get used to making alternative arrangements and lo and behold you can legitimately claim that no one is using on board catering service so it can be withdrawn.

 

[philosopher]

Up to about 2 hours most people would only want hot drinks anyway and can carry on a higher quality one than you will ever get from a trolley. I think it was the coming of premium coffee to the UK that basically signed their death knell - they were more attractive in the days when you'd only get Nescafe in a polystyrene cup pretty much wherever you bought it.

Avanti to be fair do have reasonable coffee from a bean to cup machine in the shop / buffet, which is no different from what you get at some of the coffee chains, (Pret and Starbucks I am pretty sure are just using a fancy bean to cup machine). Many other operators however seem to just dispense instant coffee from a flask on a trolley.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Avanti to be fair do have reasonable coffee from a bean to cup machine in the shop / buffet, which is no different from what you get at some of the coffee chains, (Pret and Starbucks I am pretty sure are just using a fancy bean to cup machine).

Yes, that's true. I do sometimes buy it.

Many other operators however seem to just dispense instant coffee from a flask on a trolley.

I've never understood why they do instant; you could do decent quality filter easily enough from a flask. I suppose though some of the "fancy" instants (the microgrind ones like Kenco Millicano) are quite drinkable now and worlds away from Nescafe.

 

[ValentaFan1974]

As a XC caterer, I find this thread quite depressing. On most of my routes, although very busy, I am usually able to get through with the catering trolley from one end to the other and back within an hour or a bit more. Take-up is usually quite good. Once I’m at the other end, if there isn’t a First Class Host, I will look after those passengers for a period of time, then back I go with the trolley again to the other end.

Our shifts can be up to 11 hours long on some days and I can assure you that most of that time I’ll be on my feet doing the best job I can with the tools I have - rarely do I have the luxury of sitting down. At times when I can’t go out with the trolley I will provide a static service and will make regular announcements as to where I’m situated. I can’t speak for others but I’m on my feet for nearly all the time on board.

Catering usually breaks even or is a loss-leader - the same way Tesco used to price beans at 2p a tin many years ago just to get people through the doors and buy other things. Many people value on-board catering and maybe wouldn’t travel by train if it were not available - certainly not on very long journeys from one end of the country to the other… is it worth the TOC/DfT losing many hundreds of pounds of ticket revenue per-passenger lost (which could be many thousands per journey) for the sake of paying a caterer a small percentage of that to run a service?

 

[Goldfish62]

As a XC caterer, I find this thread quite depressing. On most of my routes, although very busy, I am usually able to get through with the catering trolley from one end to the other and back within an hour or a bit more. Take-up is usually quite good. Once I’m at the other end, if there isn’t a First Class Host, I will look after those passengers for a period of time, then back I go with the trolley again to the other end.

Our shifts can be up to 11 hours long on some days and I can assure you that most of that time I’ll be on my feet doing the best job I can with the tools I have - rarely do I have the luxury of sitting down. At times when I can’t go out with the trolley I will provide a static service and will make regular announcements as to where I’m situated. I can’t speak for others but I’m on my feet for nearly all the time on board.

Catering usually breaks even or is a loss-leader - the same way Tesco used to price beans at 2p a tin many years ago just to get people through the doors and buy other things. Many people value on-board catering and maybe wouldn’t travel by train if it were not available - certainly not on very long journeys from one end of the country to the other… is it worth the TOC/DfT losing many hundreds of pounds of ticket revenue per-passenger lost (which could be many thousands per journey) for the sake of paying a caterer a small percentage of that to run a service?

I totally agree with everything you say. I can also vouch that the XC catering staff are great. Keep up the good work!

 

[Towers]

I totally agree with everything you say. I can also vouch that the XC catering staff are great. Keep up the good work!

Sadly though the scourge of pairs of non-gangway units often seems to spoil things on XC; my casual observations are that a very long winded and confusing announcement to the effect that one end has catering but the other doesn't is a fairly common thing. The staff are unfailing proactive on pretty much every single journey, but again you have to have the tools to do a job well!

 

[g492p]

Up to about 2 hours most people would only want hot drinks anyway and can carry on a higher quality one than you will ever get from a trolley. I think it was the coming of premium coffee to the UK that basically signed their death knell - they were more attractive in the days when you'd only get Nescafe in a polystyrene cup pretty much wherever you bought it.

I’m not surprised Avanti are scrapping this. I’ve taken about 6 of their services since this has been rolled out and it’s not been available on any of them!

I rather think a full review for catering should take place on the network in my opinion. On GWR, they could easily remove catering from some routes (i.e Paddington to Bristol) as from my observations, they only seem to sell the odd hot drink on it and there is a cafe or facilities at every station on the route (including Chippenham!). There is no point providing something if it’s not being utilised.

Have you any evidence to back this up? Catering is very well used on my trains for many journeys under 2 hours so I’d be interested to see it. Indeed the buffet was very well used on the Bristol trains back in the days of FGW. Some people don’t arrive at the station in time to get provisions, and there is often long queues at outlets on stations too. Indeed I think on IC services people should be offered the choice of catering. If GA can commit to catering on the 750s to Norwich, I can’t see why Avanti and GWR can’t, other than bad management. I think it’s also a point that where catering as been eradicated, ticket prices have not fallen. This means passengers paying the same or more for a worse service.

 

[43066]

Up to about 2 hours most people would only want hot drinks anyway and can carry on a higher quality one than you will ever get from a trolley. I think it was the coming of premium coffee to the UK that basically signed their death knell - they were more attractive in the days when you'd only get Nescafe in a polystyrene cup pretty much wherever you bought it.

Not sure this is necessarily true? It probably depends on time of day.

Have you any evidence to back this up? Catering is very well used on my trains for many journeys under 2 hours so I’d be interested to see it. Indeed the buffet was very well used on the Bristol trains back in the days of FGW. Some people don’t arrive at the station in time to get provisions, and there is often long queues at outlets on stations too. Indeed I think on IC services people should be offered the choice of catering. If GA can commit to catering on the 750s to Norwich, I can’t see why Avanti and GWR can’t, other than bad management. I think it’s also a point that where catering as been eradicated, ticket prices have not fallen. This means passengers paying the same or more for a worse service.

This is a good point. We still have trolley hosts, but seemingly not on every trip, and if there’s no trolley there’s no catering at all for non first class ticket holders. Even first class catering has been reduced to a shadow of its former self. Covid has been used as an excuse for cost cutting in all sorts of areas and, as you say, it doesn’t translate to lower ticket prices; people are just paying more for less!

 

[island]

Eurostar has contrived to do espresso from a trolley, albeit only in Business Premier. I think it's a bit of a gimmick.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Eurostar has contrived to do espresso from a trolley, albeit only in Business Premier. I think it's a bit of a gimmick.

It can be done using a Nespresso machine - SBB do it. However people prefer longer coffee drinks with more milk in the UK so this may not sell well.

 

[Runningaround]

You won't see a trolley on an 11 car Pendo, that is the problem unfortunately. Trolleys travel very, very slowly and are completely unsuitable for longer trains.

Use more then, why use only one or two?

 

[Neo9320]

Use more then, why use only one or two?

Increased costs of team members pushing those trolleys. The catering doesn’t make much money as it is, add more humans in the mix and it’s going to be a drain on resources

 

[AlterEgo]

Use more then, why use only one or two?

Good luck a) finding the staff and b) justifying the cost

 

[laseandre]

Tried to use this twice on a recent trip, there and back. Didn't work either time, with the added bonus of a rushed connection on the way back and no card acceptance in the onboard cafe! Just absolutely no chance for me to eat all the way from BHM-GLC...