CAF Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Lurcheroo]

To be fair, Holyhead Cardiff, Manchester Carmarthen, Cardiff Milford, Maesteg Cheltenham, Ebbw Vale Cardiff, Cardiff Fishguard and even Ebbw Vale Newport are using them, so it does make sense to think they’d be on those routes if not on Manchester Chester.

As are pretty much all the North routes.
Holyhead/Llandudno to the airport, Blaenau, Wrexham to Bidston, Chester Crewe, Chester liverpool and they were in Crewe to Shrewsbury but not sure if the shuttle is back entirely to 153’s.
There’s just a general lack of 197’s as they’re out for whatever reason.
Decisions are made with what units are available to cover what services in mind. If there’s a spare 150 in Canton and nothing at Chester then they’ll steal a 197 from there and use that.
Vice versus, if nothings available at Canton but a158 available at Chester then they’ll do it that way.
There’s of course plenty of other considerations such is unit mileage, exams, where it needs to end up that night, fuel, road transport, station staffing number of passengers to be left stranded, other operators that can take passengers to their destinations and probably plenty more I’ve not thought of.
Not really much reason to assume they’re ‘in the south’ anymore than would be expected.
There’s a Rhetoric about TFW only caring about the south and it’s just bonkers, coming from someone who works and lives in the North.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

There’s a Rhetoric about TFW only caring about the south and it’s just bonkers, coming from someone who works and lives in the North.

Yes I agree it’s bonkers. For the first year of the 197s introduction the North got a much better deal than we did down here.

 

[TDK]

Yes I agree it’s bonkers. For the first year of the 197s introduction the North got a much better deal than we did down here.

The north will swap the 197's for the FLIRTS, when you look at the financial outlay there's just no comparison, Taffs Well, electrification etc. etc. leaves short change for any infrastructure enhancements. As the 175's have been decommissioned what would have replaced them if not 197's?

117 reported to not have the holes in the floor for the access ramp and hence why it was taken out of service. I’m surprised, given that it’s coupled up to 016 that it couldn’t have worked the service back to Chester with 016 and 019 going forward together.

So TFW accepted it like that, seems like a bit of fail on their part.

 

[Lurcheroo]

The north will swap the 197's for the FLIRTS, when you look at the financial outlay there's just no comparison, Taffs Well, electrification etc. etc. leaves short change for any infrastructure enhancements. As the 175's have been decommissioned what would have replaced them if not 197's?

The FLIRTs wouldn’t work in the North, in fact, I struggle to see what new DMU other than the covert platform could have been sourced for TFW that’s suitable with all the portion working.

So TFW accepted it like that, seems like a bit of fail on their part.

Yeah it does seem like a small fail but not a major issue by any means and can certainly be easily rectified.

 

[TDK]

The FLIRTs wouldn’t work in the North, in fact, I struggle to see what new DMU other than the covert platform could have been sourced for TFW that’s suitable with all the portion working.

Yeah it does seem like a small fail but not a major issue by any means and can certainly be easily rectified.

So why would the FLIRTS not work in the north, same guage, replacing the same units, if they are ordered from scratch they can be whatever formation required, the FLIRTS are far superior in build and are more practical when it comes to driver visibility than the 197's, the only viable reason I can see is cost. Regarding the small fail, any train entering service should go through a testing program and a full exam, this unit had to be removed from service and a service cancelled.

 

[Lurcheroo]

So why would the FLIRTS not work in the north, same guage, replacing the same units, if they are ordered from scratch they can be whatever formation required, the FLIRTS are far superior in build and are more practical when it comes to driver visibility than the 197's, the only viable reason I can see is cost. Regarding the small fail, any train entering service should go through a testing program and a full exam, this unit had to be removed from service and a service cancelled.

Because we do an absolutely ridiculous amount of portion working and I’m not aware of any Stadler product with end gangways, in fact I’m not aware of any manufacturer other than CAF making units with end gangways?

Also, I’m not sure how viable it would be to have the power pack system for a 2 car train, which is plenty for many services in the North, but then Again you’d probably need 3 cars on the fliers as they have a lot less seats.

You can then add that a 2 car 197 is almost 20 metres shorter than a 3 car FLIRT whilst having just 2, yes JUST 2, less seats, it would make them not great for all of the short platforms around the North.

Driver visibility isn’t that horrific on the 197’s, obviously not as good as something like the FLIRT or pendelino with a large window and no gangway but we’ve been driving unit’s with gangways across the network for decades without issues.

I’m surprised, given that it’s coupled up to 016 that it couldn’t have worked the service back to Chester

Ahh well, that seems that is an issue but isn’t the reason both units are OOS. Driver reported that they were having issues with the ARG not working.

Well actually, if you read my further posts, the issue was reported and I made the assumption that was why it was coming out of service, which I thought was odd as it was coupled to a unit with perfectly fine disability access.
I posted again shortly after saying that it was actually an ARG issue that meant it had to come out of service.

197117 is back out again and is back onto the exact same diagram as before, ending up at Cardiff again with 197016.

Bill then kindly pointed out that it was back in service later that day after it had been repaired.
Undoubtedly the lack of holes for the ramp will have been dealt with when it got back to the depot at the end of its working day.
So yes whilst it did have to come out of service and a service cancelled, it was for a totally unrelated reason and as I stated, was no big issue that could be easily resolved.

You may not like the 197’s or TFW (and that’s fair, everyone has their own opinion) but your comments seem needlessly nefarious quite frankly. Or maybe just uninformed I’m not quite sure.

Edit: just wanted to add a 2car 197 is about £4.8m whilst a 3car 197 is about £6.5m and a class 231 is about £6.9m.
So with the 231 and a 3 car 197 having almost the same seated capacity, the difference in price is not that much, which to me says it’s not the reason they stayed away from them for the rest of the fleet.

 

[Topological]

I am not sure that ordering 197s over Flirts for the North Wales services is the biggest thing TfW did wrong. Arguably, not ordering more 197s so that all Marches services could be 197 is the bigger offence.

As @Lurcheroo rightly says the 197s provide excellent flexibility without compromising the capacity. TfW just need to get enough of them into service to get Manchester to 5-car (though no doubt there will be 197s stolen to make up for the failure of Mk4s for a long time yet)

 

[Lurcheroo]

I am not sure that ordering 197s over Flirts for the North Wales services is the biggest thing TfW did wrong. Arguably, not ordering more 197s so that all Marches services could be 197 is the bigger offence.

As @Lurcheroo rightly says the 197s provide excellent flexibility without compromising the capacity. TfW just need to get enough of them into service to get Manchester to 5-car (though no doubt there will be 197s stolen to make up for the failure of Mk4s for a long time yet.

MK4’s have improved and will continue to do so undoubtedly. But 197 substitutes will happen. When that’s added with 197’s be used to cover for 230’s and FLIRTS also, it’s easy to see why it feels like there’s a lack of 197’s despite only 5x3 cars being left to enter service.

Edit: removed mis information regarding cost of 197120’s made in wales vinyl stickers.

 

[Northerngirl]

Could also say that paying £5.5 million for a ‘made in wales’ vinyl on 197120 is a bigger offence too.

Are you saying that the 197s overall cost £5.5 more, or did they pay that much for one sticker

 

[Jamesrob637]

Could also say that paying £5.5 million for a ‘made in wales’ vinyl on 197120 is a bigger offence too.

MK4’s have improved and will continue to do so undoubtedly. But 197 substitutes will happen. When that’s added with 197’s be used to cover for 230’s and FLIRTS also, it’s easy to see why it feels like there’s a lack of 197’s despite only 5x3 cars being left to enter service.

Tuesday marked 18 months since the introduction into traffic of the first unit.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Are you saying that the 197s overall cost £5.5 more, or did they pay that much for one sticker

ok so it was 4am after being awoken by my little one when I was reading the FOI reaponse, it was £5,500.00 not £5.5 million. So sorry for the confusion. I did think £5.5million seemed totally absurd.

Tuesday marked 18 months since the introduction into traffic of the first unit.

Then it’ll be well over 2 years by the time the last one is in service i would have thought.

 

[Jamesrob637]

ok so it was 4am after being awoken by my little one when I was reading the FOI reaponse, it was £5,500.00 not £5.5 million. So sorry for the confusion. I did think £5.5million seemed totally absurd.


Then it’ll be well over 2 years by the time the last one is in service i would have thought.

It won't take six months to accept the final few. Six weeks maybe.

 

[BillStampy]

It won't take six months to accept the final few. Six weeks maybe.

Six weeks? The last few months have been almost dead silent up until recently, 6 weeks is a short time to accept the remainder. Of course 114 is almost certainly next up, still unsure of the rest!

 

[Lurcheroo]

It won't take six months to accept the final few. Six weeks maybe.

Six weeks? The last few months have been almost dead silent up until recently, 6 weeks is a short time to accept the remainder. Of course 114 is almost certainly next up, still unsure of the rest!

I think you may both be forgetting that there are 21 ERTMS 2 cars to get into service once the 3 cars are done.

 

[craigybagel]

I think you may both be forgetting that there are 21 ERTMS 2 cars to get into service once the 3 cars are done.

And that none of the current 197 competent drivers have been shown how ERTMS is going to work on these units. Seemingly the process will be different from the 158s.

 

[Lurcheroo]

And that none of the current 197 competent drivers have been shown how ERTMS is going to work on these units. Seemingly the process will be different from the 158s.

Yes sounds that way as all ERTMS trained drivers will need some sort of training just on the 197 ERTMS system .

 

[nigelsporne]

Have all the ERTMS units been manufactured? If so where are they? Have any yet been spotted on the network?
Apologies if this has been covered earlier but I couldn't find it.

 

[childwallblues]

197114 is on the 0542 Chester to Liverpool and 0652 return this morning. Is this its first day in service?

 

[sd0733]

197114 is on the 0542 Chester to Liverpool and 0652 return this morning. Is this its first day in service?

Yes first day for that one, so the 05:42 was its first working.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Have all the ERTMS units been manufactured? If so where are they? Have any yet been spotted on the network?
Apologies if this has been covered earlier but I couldn't find it.

Not sure if they’ve all been manufactured or not. There’s a number of 2 cars at Donnington rail freight terminal so those will be ERTMS units.
003 and 024 have certainly both been out and about and have done testing on the Cambrian.

 

[nigelsporne]

Thank you.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Yes first day for that one, so the 05:42 was its first working.

So is that 4 3 cars left now then ?
Edit: looking back through the thread, looks like its 5 3cars left to being into service.

 

[Jamesrob637]

So is that 4 3 cars left now then ?
Edit: looking back through the thread, looks like its 5 3cars left to being into service.

Six weeks is realistic to bring five trains into service. That's barely one a week.

 

[craigybagel]

Yes sounds that way as all ERTMS trained drivers will need some sort of training just on the 197 ERTMS system .

What I was told is that outside the Cambrian we won't be using Level 0 like we do with the 158s, but I've no idea how what we'll be doing instead

Have all the ERTMS units been manufactured? If so where are they? Have any yet been spotted on the network?
Apologies if this has been covered earlier but I couldn't find it.

Apart from the Cambrian testing runs, 003 was also used (with ERTMS isolated) for crew training runs near the start of the programme. Aside from that, none of the ERTMS sets have seen much use yet.

 

[sd0733]

Six weeks is realistic to bring five trains into service. That's barely one a week.

Some 6 week blocks have seen 0 or 1 being accepted.
There's still 26 197s to accept, there's a low chance they'll be accepted in 6 months, 6 weeks is no chance.

 

[Lurcheroo]

What I was told is that outside the Cambrian we won't be using Level 0 like we do with the 158s, but I've no idea how what we'll be doing instead

Interesting! Not used the 197 one yet so not sure how that will differ.

Apart from the Cambrian testing runs, 003 was also used (with ERTMS isolated) for crew training runs near the start of the programme. Aside from that, none of the ERTMS sets have seen much use yet.

003 also went on one of the 5 car proving runs to Manchester.

Some 6 week blocks have seen 0 or 1 being accepted.
There's still 26 197s to accept, there's a low chance they'll be accepted in 6 months, 6 weeks is no chance.

I think the 6 weeks is just referring to the 3 cars remaining but even that could be quite a push as you say !

 

[sd0733]

I think the 6 weeks is just referring to the 3 cars remaining but even that could be quite a push as you say !

If they go through the way theyve been accepted recently those could be done in just over a week! 4 this week I believe. Very hit and miss though how quickly they come through.

Strangely even with all the extra units this week and not the upturn in diagrams there's quite a shortage of 197s today particularly out of Chester.

Looks as if 10 197s short potentially for tomorrow with likely shortforms and possibly cancellations with unit shortages, with 51 units accepted and only 30 Sunday diagrams for them it's poor if that can't be covered. Hopefully some can be coaxed back to life overnight!

 

[Lurcheroo]

If they go through the way theyve been accepted recently those could be done in just over a week! 4 this week I believe. Very hit and miss though how quickly they come through.

Strangely even with all the extra units this week and not the upturn in diagrams there's quite a shortage of 197s today particularly out of Chester.

Looks as if 10 197s short potentially for tomorrow with likely shortforms and possibly cancellations with unit shortages, with 51 units accepted and only 30 Sunday diagrams for them it's poor if that can't be covered. Hopefully some can be coaxed back to life overnight!

That’s interesting. So there’s only 20 of the 51 197’s available ?
That’s wild.

 

[sd0733]

That’s interesting. So there’s only 20 of the 51 197’s available ?
That’s wild.

Don't think quite that bad, it's 10 units stopped over what's normally maintenance/exam I believe, some of the slack may be taken out with some swapping or using what would be static diagrams.
Today has seen the Blaneau cancelled completely with no unit all day and some 15x substituting, 150/153 on Cheltenham/Ebbw and 158s round Chester. This hasn't really helped with many 2 car Birminghams running non-stop Shrewsbury to Wolverhampton due to overcrowding. The Marches has seen a few 2 car instead of 3/4 too but no Manchester 15x (other than the booked late pair of 153s later)

Not sure what the 197 issues are but hopefully they're overcome quickly.

 

[Jez]

If they go through the way theyve been accepted recently those could be done in just over a week! 4 this week I believe. Very hit and miss though how quickly they come through.

Strangely even with all the extra units this week and not the upturn in diagrams there's quite a shortage of 197s today particularly out of Chester.

Looks as if 10 197s short potentially for tomorrow with likely shortforms and possibly cancellations with unit shortages, with 51 units accepted and only 30 Sunday diagrams for them it's poor if that can't be covered. Hopefully some can be coaxed back to life overnight!

I noticed there seemed to be a shortage of 197s, a good number of West Wales to Cardiff were 2 carriages today although all I think were covered by 197's but short formed to 2 cars. At least 1 Maesteg diagram was a 150 too. But better they go there than to West Wales to Manchester.

I also noticed on a very overcrowded 197008 the air con wasnt working. Quite a few people were commenting how hot it was on the train. And I was only on it around 12 minutes. It was good to switch to 197050 at Bridgend to go up the Maesteg line as not only was it cooler but I actually got a seat.

Im really happy that so many 3 cars are now coming into service, lets hope the 197s get their act together with all these faults otherwise this summer could be just as bad as the last few have been with overcrowding on key services.