Can an Oyster card be retained by an RPI?

[Jan Mayen]

In this thread, https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/received-a-witness-statement-receipt.267164/, the poster says that their Oyster card was retained.
Given that the card could well have upto £90 loaded onto it, as well as a season ticket, I was surprised to read it was taken.
Having a card taken off you could leave you stranded, so seems a bit extreme. Can this be done, and would a customer have any form of comeback?

 

[bcarmicle]

Bus drivers can withdraw Oyster cards - see page 168 of the Big Red Book (https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/requ...h/3/bigred book 2019.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1), so I can't see any reason why an RPI couldn't.

I would hope that if the subsequent investigation found no wrongdoing, any fares paid that would be covered by a season ticket on the Oyster card would be refunded.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Yes, under 18.2 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel (and an Oyster card is defined as a ticket later on).

https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e8xgegruud3g/77fuBWp62YPSrGwBP1mNQX/5f912e6484a2dc7efbad3b4ed0c9b383/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel_2024.pdf

 

[furlong]

Can this be done, and would a customer have any form of comeback?

Yes it can be done, and yes the customer may have comeback depending on the circumstances.

The conditions of use state:

2.3 Train Company staff or their agent(s) reserve the right to prevent the use of or to withdraw your Oyster card at any time if they have reason to suspect that it is being improperly used or used in a way that is not permitted by these conditions of use. Such withdrawal will not take place without good reason and you will be given a receipt.

 

[RuinsFreedom]

Yes it can be done, and yes the customer may have comeback depending on the circumstances.

The conditions of use state:

What does improperly used mean in this case? I was using the correct oyster and had tapped in, it was taken from me because I was sat in the first class carriage which I did not realise was not declassified. I had mistakenly thought all trains running through central London had declassified their first class carriages. I have been taking trains in London for nearly 8 years and this is my first experience of train staff making the distinction.

 

[fandroid]

I had mistakenly thought all trains running through central London had declassified their first class carriages. I have been taking trains in London for nearly 8 years and this is my first experience of train staff making the distinction.

Thameslink trains declassify the rear first class areas, but not the front ones. Last time I travelled on one (on Friday) there was an automated announcement about the position of first class.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thameslink trains declassify the rear first class areas, but not the front ones. Last time I travelled on one (on Friday) there was an automated announcement about the position of first class.

But confusingly on their Sutton loop trains I think both front and rear first class are declassified tho correct me if this is wrong!

 

[RJ]

If it’s deemed confusing it’s best to stay out of it altogether.

 

[greenline712]

Thameslink trains declassify the rear first class areas, but not the front ones. Last time I travelled on one (on Friday) there was an automated announcement about the position of first class.

Not strictly true . . . trains on the Sutton Loop have both sets of first class declassified. This means that (for example) consecutive trains at Elstree and Borehamwood can have different rules for occupation of first class areas!! It is confusing, although if @RuinsFreedom has been using these trains for 8 years, then I would have thought they would've heard the auto-announcements . . . these are made several times on every journey, and the screens also mention it (albeit briefly on each set of displays).

Frankly, if SouthEastern and Chiltern can remove first class, it would seem to me to be appropriate for others so to do. By all means retain the distinction on InterCity services, and I'd include Waterloo-Exeter in that, but on pure commuter-type services . . . time for first to go!!

 

[Haywain]

What does improperly used mean in this case? I was using the correct oyster and had tapped in, it was taken from me because I was sat in the first class carriage

As Oyster cannot be used for first class travel, being in first class accommodation would suggest it was being improperly used. And an apparent refusal to give name and address details would also suggest that and prevent a receipt being issued.

 

[RuinsFreedom]

Not strictly true . . . trains on the Sutton Loop have both sets of first class declassified. This means that (for example) consecutive trains at Elstree and Borehamwood can have different rules for occupation of first class areas!! It is confusing, although if @RuinsFreedom has been using these trains for 8 years, then I would have thought they would've heard the auto-announcements . . . these are made several times on every journey, and the screens also mention it (albeit briefly on each set of displays).

Frankly, if SouthEastern and Chiltern can remove first class, it would seem to me to be appropriate for others so to do. By all means retain the distinction on InterCity services, and I'd include Waterloo-Exeter in that, but on pure commuter-type services . . . time for first to go!!

I travel mainly on southern and south eastern, though I do use Thameslink on occasion - usually just one stop to London Bridge. I can honestly say I can't ever recall hearing the announcement - I may well have have but paid no attention to it and I'm sure I will be hearing it every time I am on a Thameslink train now

As Oyster cannot be used for first class travel, being in first class accommodation would suggest it was veing improperly used. And your apparent refusal to give your details would also suggest that and prevent you being given a receipt.

I was never asked for my details. I said I thought they had been declassified and this is where the tone of the RPI changed. He then said he would issue me a penalty fare but we never got to the point where he asked for any details. I asked for my oyster back and he refused and then walked off. When I followed him and demanded it back, he called the police and then we just sat and waited for the police.

When the police arrived, we both explained the situation and they told me that I would need to give my details, and I did. They also spoke about it as if I was receiving a penalty fare, saying you don't have to pay it now etc. It was only when I got home I realised that it wasnt actually a penalty fare.

 

[Hadders]

I travel mainly on southern and south eastern, though I do use Thameslink on occasion - usually just one stop to London Bridge. I can honestly say I can't ever recall hearing the announcement - I may well have have but paid no attention to it and I'm sure I will be hearing it every time I am on a Thameslink train now

There is no announcement on the trains but the 1st class compartments are clearly marked. There is a door you have to go through to get into first.

When 1st class is declassified on Thameslink (always the rear compartment and sometimes the front one as well) the passenger information screen in the compartment displays as message to this effect as part of its rotation.

 

[AdamWW]

When 1st class is declassified on Thameslink (always the rear compartment and sometimes the front one as well) the passenger information screen in the compartment displays as message to this effect as part of its rotation.

Although in my experience it's only displayed for a relatively small fraction of time. I've sat in the back looking out for the message to double check that I was OK, and it's taken quite a while before I've spotted it.

Certainly if someone thought the front was declassified, it seems a bit much to expect them to notice that unlike the back, the display rotation didn't include a message to that effect.

When sitting in first class with the wrong ticket was made a criminal offence, I doubt that something as confusing as this was what they had in mind.

 

[Haywain]

Certainly if someone thought the front was declassified, it seems a bit much to expect them to notice that unlike the back, the display rotation didn't include a message to that effect.

In which case the simple rule is that if you are unsure, don't sit there.

 

[AdamWW]

In which case the simple rule is that if you are unsure, don't sit there

True. Though not relevant to my comment or the discussion I was comenting on about someone who was sure but wrong.