Card rejected at station

[WelshBluebird]

Just curious about what my rights were in the situation I was in this morning.

The station I travel from doesn't have a ticket machine or a ticket office and is normally totally unmanned, but during the morning peak a member of staff sells tickets from a small booth using an avantix machine.

This morning, I did not have any cash on me and only had my debit card to pay with. I know I had money in my account as I was paid last week. My card works fine. And it isn't one of the cards that cannot be used "offline" (I use it to buy tickets onboard trains quite a lot anyway). Yet it was declined by the machine with the member of staff just saying she couldn't help.

Now as it was I was more worried about if my card had been blocked or something rather than getting on the train, so I went to the nearest cashpoint to try to get money out (which worked fine).

But if I had chosen to, would I have been ok getting on the train without a ticket? I tried to buy a ticket before boarding, and it isn't my fault the avantix machine didn't work (indeed the member of staff herself said sometimes they can just not work for no reason). But at the same time, for all FGW know, I could have been trying to pull the wool over their eyes.

 

[maniacmartin]

What did you last use the card for prior to attempting to buy this ticket? As I understand it, cards have a limit to the amount of offline transactions that can be done in succession before they need an online one to reset them to allow further offline transactions.

I would be wary of boarding the train in the scenario you describe, unless you the staff member has authorised in writing that eyou can pay at the next available opportunity.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Had used the card the previous day in quite a few places, but I would have imagined all those places would have been online (Sainsburies, Nandos etc).

I would be wary about getting on the train myself really. But I still don't see why the passenger should be inconvenienced for something that is totally not their fault at all (and in my opinion was a fault with the avantix machine - backed up by the fact the person infront of me had issues with paying by card as it wouldn't accept his pin).

 

[bb21]

The difficulty for you is how do you convince staff that it was the machine's fault, particularly if the card is declined again onboard?

 

[wintonian]

A card can be declined for many reasons and very few of those (I would have thought) would be related be the failure of the TOC's equipment, or otherwise with in their responsibility, as anyone with a National Westminster account could probably tell you. :-x

 

[IanXC]

A card can be declined for many reasons and very few of those (I would have thought) would be related be the failure of the TOC's equipment, or otherwise with in their responsibility, as anyone with a National Westminster account could probably tell you. :-x

I would agree that the possible decline reasons attributable to the TOCs equipment are few in number, but I would be very surprised if the failure of the TOCs equipment to process cards online did not account for the vast majority of declines.

 

[wintonian]

I would agree that the possible decline reasons attributable to the TOCs equipment are few in number, but I would be very surprised if the failure of the TOCs equipment to process cards online did not account for the vast majority of declines.

If your thinking about equipment not being able to gain authorisation, then that's just as likely to be down to the Payments Council's end of the connection as it is the TOC's.

 

[IanXC]

If your thinking about equipment not being able to gain authorisation, then that's just as likely to be down to the Payments Council's end of the connection as it is the TOC's.

I'm not sure quite what the Payments Council has to do with any of this? The terms of the Visa and Mastercard schemes are not under their control.

Over quite a number of years the Visa and Mastercard schemes have been moving to online authorisation, and technology the TOCs could use is available. They have chosen not to acquire this equipment, even though many other industries have and we therefore find ourselves in this situation.

 

[michael769]

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But if I had chosen to, would I have been ok getting on the train without a ticket? I tried to buy a ticket before boarding, and it isn't my fault the avantix machine didn't work (indeed the member of staff herself said sometimes they can just not work for no reason). But at the same time, for all FGW know, I could have been trying to pull the wool over their eyes.

Where ticket selling options are available at a station it is your responsibility to buy a ticket using a method of payment that is acceptable to both you and the ticket seller. The ToC (or their staff) are perfectly at liberty to refuse any transaction without giving a reason.

If a ToC fails to accept an advertised method of payment and that failure is not due to you or your bank, it would be grounds for a complaint to the ASA or Tradings Standards for false or misleading advertising. This does not exempt you from the requirement to purchase a ticket before boarding, and you would still need to either offer an alternative means of payment that is accepted or not travel.

I could not advise boarding from a station with a person selling tickets without having first gained permission to do so. I would hope that most staff having experience of the foibles of the Avantix terminals would use their discretion if you did though - but that is not guaranteed and it is important to understand the potential consequences of taking the chance (a criminal prosecution for a Byelaw Offence).

 

[island]

That is an excellent post.

 

[Ferret]

That is an excellent post.

Seconded - an extremely sensible and well-worded post from michael769 there.

With regard to stations, I see no reason for there to be an issue with installing equipment for an online transaction. For on board sales, it becomes far more tricky...

 

[island]

With regard to stations, I see no reason for there to be an issue with installing equipment for an online transaction.

For some stations, the choice is having someone camped there for a few hours on weekday mornings with an Avantix Mobile or no ticket office, as it is not worth installing network connections and a full-fledged TIS.

 

[Scotty]

GPRS/3G connectivity?

 

[Ferret]

For some stations, the choice is having someone camped there for a few hours on weekday mornings with an Avantix Mobile or no ticket office, as it is not worth installing network connections and a full-fledged TIS.

Can we foresee a time when the banks drive a policy of 'online only transactions'? What will the choice be then?

 

[island]

GPRS/3G connectivity?

Not compatible with any equipment currently in use, so some new system would need to be procured, no doubt at enormous expense.

Can we foresee a time when the banks drive a policy of 'online only transactions'? What will the choice be then?

Good question. Offline transactions are very much the exception rather than the rule at the moment. Traditional merchants often have zero floor limits now. Avantix Mobile really should be replaced pronto.

 

[IanXC]

Can we foresee a time when the banks drive a policy of 'online only transactions'? What will the choice be then?

If there is more movement on the issues of not allowing accounts to go overdrawn without advance permission and/or the issues surrounding charges for overdrafts, then I think tightening up on offline transactions will become inevitable. Having said that, as I understand it contactless payments (limited currently to £20) default to offline authorisation.

 

[island]

Yes, contactless payments are done offline, but banks set a limit (such as five transactions or £50, whichever comes first) above which an online PIN-verified transaction must be carried out.

A number of banks now offer products which for a monthly fee guarantee you will be never charged unauthorized overdraft fees, but a condition of this is that you must accept an online-only debit card.

 

[Delta558]

From what I remember when Avantix 2 was introduced with us, there was a deliberate avoidance of the software which authorises transactions 'instantly' via online connections. When you think of the cuttings, tunnels etc that a train moves through at speed, there would be a likelihood of transactions being disrupted and potentially problems arising from that. Different areas will (obviously) have different reception levels, but to take one of my depot's core routes there is approximately five minutes of clear GPRS signal in the first forty minutes of the journey. That happens to be the busiest section of the route, so offline transactions are the most profitable (for the company) and efficient (for the majority of customers).
It is noticeable that certain cards (a very common green one, for example) are the ones which are frequently declined using this software, apparently that is to do with the way the cards are set up by the banks. We are able to manually input the card number, but there is a fairly low limit on what can be done before authorisation has to be obtained. Addressing the OP, I cannot speak of any TOC other than my own (I can't actually speak for them either, but . . . !) our routine on train is to swipe after pin verification if the amount is below the authorisation limit, or to phone for authorisation above that limit, obtain an auth No. and then swipe. I think that if you were not offered these options (which are fully supported by all UK banks), then you would have grounds for complaint if you were later to be picked up for not purchasing at your origin station.

 

[island]

Many staff members are unfamiliar with, or unwilling to, use the manual telephone authorization service which has been laid on.