How long to wait at a ticket machine

[WelshBluebird]

There are only two times when you can board a train without a ticket.

• Where there are no facilities to buy a ticket or permit to travel.
• Where a train company notice or publication states that tickets may be bought onboard the train.

Having to wait for a ticket at a station is not a reason to board a train without one. Turning up five seconds before the train leaves is not a reason to buy onboard.

But we are not talking about turning up 5 seconds beforehand.

 

[cuccir]

If the TVM only accepts cash - no cards, would you be penalty fared in this instance if you have a credit card? As I said in an earlier post, I would not trust a TVM with a £10 or £20 note!

I've never had a problem using notes in a TVM, I wouldn't worry about that and don't think that's a legitimate excuse to not buy a ticekt

You wouldn't receive a penalty fare if:

* a TVM wasn't accepting cash
* there was no ticket office open
* you had a means of payment (ie a credit card) but no cash on you

I'm not as confident about this BUT, if you had some cash, but not enough for your journey, I think you would probably be expected to buy a ticket for part of your journey or use a permit to travel machine - the money spent would be discounted form your final ticket.

 

[yorkie]

If the TVM only accepts cash - no cards, would you be penalty fared in this instance if you have a credit card? As I said in an earlier post, I would not trust a TVM with a £10 or £20 note!

For the OPs situation, which is a PF station boarding a PF train, you must buy at the first available opportunity. If the payment method you wish to use is not available at your origin, that is not an opportunity!

 

[Failed Unit]

I've never had a problem using notes in a TVM, I wouldn't worry about that and don't think that's a legitimate excuse to not buy a ticekt

You wouldn't receive a penalty fare if:

* a TVM wasn't accepting cash
* there was no ticket office open
* you had a means of payment (ie a credit card) but no cash on you

I'm not as confident about this BUT, if you had some cash, but not enough for your journey, I think you would probably be expected to buy a ticket for part of your journey or use a permit to travel machine - the money spent would be discounted form your final ticket.

I was just burnt once a while ago. I wanted a ticket between New Southgate and Highbury and Islington. The machine took my £10 note but gave no change or ticket. I needed to buy a new ticket a Highbury and Islington as I couldn't prove this and WAGN at the time didn't take any action either so it was £10 down the drain. So never used notes again in them as a result. However to be honest I am now in an area where the TVMs don't accept cash anyway so it is a non-issue (but then Scotrail don't PF either)

 

[FenMan]

My local station, run by FGW:

No ticket office.
In a penalty fare zone, which is signposted at the entrance.
One TVM on the southbound platform (the TVM that was on the northbound platform was removed by FGW after persistent vandalism).
When approaching the station from the northbound side it takes at least 5 minutes to access the remaining TVM, going up and down two lengthy flights of steps and crossing a road bridge. Then add queuing time.
The operational TVM, which doesn't accept cash, has a dicky card reader and is frequently out of order. It is also inoperable when it is raining, due to inadequate shielding.

Unsurprisingly, northbound passengers buy tickets on board with no issues.

Last Monday, an RPI was on a northbound service and questioned me why I hadn't purchased a ticket before boarding. I said I always purchased on the trains as the purchase facilities at the station were inadequate (I suspect this was the nth time he'd heard this explanation). He said ok and told me to buy a ticket from the guard or at the destination. The guard appeared shortly afterwards and I purchased a ticket as normal. Ho hum!

 

[CUB331C]

just buy it from the guard

 

[GadgetMan]

So you think it is fine that someone could arrive for their train in plenty of time, but end up missing the train through no fault of their own?

What I think is irrelevant. If ticket issuing facilities are available and operating correctly then the passenger is expected to be in possession of a ticket before boarding unless a sign or authorised person says otherwise.

In the majority of cases (in my experience) where a passenger says they did not have time to buy a ticket, it usually means they did not allow enough time to buy a ticket. They get to the station and make their way straight to the platform having made no effort to purchase a ticket. A significant number of rail travelers also seem to believe queueing is for everyone else and it's beneath them.

 

[lj9090]

That is the fun. I am wondering if anyone has managed to get an operator to overturn a penalty fare because of queues at ticket machines.

Yes... done exactly this on SWT a few years ago.

 

[GadgetMan]

'Friend of the TOCs' GadgetMan........

I have an opinion, sometimes it agrees with the TOC's stance, sometimes agree with the passenger's view, other times I may or may not agree with both sides of the argument. That doesn't make me a 'friend of the TOC', but if it makes you feel better dishing out childish names then carry on.:roll:

 

[bluenoxid]

In truth this is a grey area - as HHF says, there is nothing in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage which covers this specific issue.

Reading your story, if this happens again, I'd travel but I'd gather evidence. Take a photo of the queue when you arrive, and note the exact time that you arrive at the station. Photo the queue length again as your train arrives. The problem in your situation is that the guard, or any RPI, doesn't know if you arrive 1 minute or 21 minutes before your departure time. As you might expect 'I didn't have time' is a fairly common excuse and there's no way of them knowing if you are honest or a chancer.

This is what I think users faced with Queued out Ticket Machines should do and if they are unable to do this, to put a Data Protection request for the CCTV ASAP.

I want passengers to get the train they want. I don't want to see them missing trains or getting Penalty Fares because operators cannot provide a policy for an issue that can and does arise.

 

[radamfi]

It has to be borne in mind that if passengers experience a long queue at the ticket office/machine then they might just give up and drive instead for that journey and maybe other journeys in the future. So it is not in the interest of the TOC to have long queues. Unless there are overcrowding issues and the TOC actually want to cut the number of passengers.

 

[Failed Unit]

In the majority of cases (in my experience) where a passenger says they did not have time to buy a ticket, it usually means they did not allow enough time to buy a ticket. They get to the station and make their way straight to the platform having made no effort to purchase a ticket. A significant number of rail travelers also seem to believe queueing is for everyone else and it's beneath them.

I suspect this is the case, luckily a lot of stations in PF area has barriers I have known staff at stations open the barriers when it is clear that the queuing passengers will miss their trains.

To me it depends on how frequent the service is, I don't think for example it would be acceptable at Alexandra Palace to not buy before you board for the sake of a 6 minute queue considering the trains are every 10 minutes, but then I guess someone will then argue that they changing at Finsbury Park for a train to Cambridge so they will miss the connection etc, etc.

 

[pemma]

How long do I have to queue up at a petrol station before I can drive off with the fuel without paying?

bluenoxid said nothing about not paying for the journey, just not paying before the train arrives.

 

[WelshBluebird]

What I think is irrelevant. If ticket issuing facilities are available and operating correctly then the passenger is expected to be in possession of a ticket before boarding unless a sign or authorised person says otherwise.

In the majority of cases (in my experience) where a passenger says they did not have time to buy a ticket, it usually means they did not allow enough time to buy a ticket. They get to the station and make their way straight to the platform having made no effort to purchase a ticket. A significant number of rail travelers also seem to believe queueing is for everyone else and it's beneath them.

But that ignores the very real issue of the cases where people do leave enough time (in your experience they are the minority - but that must mean they still exist).

Someone else has already given a scenario where you cannot win - you need to pick up an advance ticket, but there is a large queue. Either you queue, pick up your ticket, miss the train, thus have to pay again. Or you queue as long as you can, but leave to get on your train before you have had chance to pick it up, this have to pay a PF.

I agree that in the majority of cases what you say is correct, but certainly not all.
Certainly I have been at Bristol Temple Meads where I have had to wait around 15 minutes before being able to buy a ticket (combination of not all the ticket machines working, some people being very slow with the machines, not having many ticket office staff and at least two of those staff taken up by people wanting railcards), and around 15 minutes at Castle Cary (one member of staff who both dispatches trains and sells tickets, no ticket machine, can get quite busy thanks to the trains to London, all means buying a ticket can be a very slow process) and I'd be surprised if there isn't someone who has had to wait longer.

My local station, run by FGW:

No ticket office.
In a penalty fare zone, which is signposted at the entrance.
One TVM on the southbound platform (the TVM that was on the northbound platform was removed by FGW after persistent vandalism).
When approaching the station from the northbound side it takes at least 5 minutes to access the remaining TVM, going up and down two lengthy flights of steps and crossing a road bridge. Then add queuing time.
The operational TVM, which doesn't accept cash, has a dicky card reader and is frequently out of order. It is also inoperable when it is raining, due to inadequate shielding.

Unsurprisingly, northbound passengers buy tickets on board with no issues.

Last Monday, an RPI was on a northbound service and questioned me why I hadn't purchased a ticket before boarding. I said I always purchased on the trains as the purchase facilities at the station were inadequate (I suspect this was the nth time he'd heard this explanation). He said ok and told me to buy a ticket from the guard or at the destination. The guard appeared shortly afterwards and I purchased a ticket as normal. Ho hum!

Even better is Oldfield park station.
Still technically a penalty fare station as fare as I am aware. But apart from the morning peak where there is just one member of staff selling tickets, there is no way of buying tickets at all on the station.
And even when there is supposed to be a member of staff there, sometimes they leave early. Leaving me having to explain to staff at Bath Spa why I did not by a ticket before travelling. I am actually surprised they believed me.

 

[RJ]

Most Passenger Charters state you should not have to wait more than 3-5 minutes at a booking office window.

The booking office is closed

How long should I have to wait at the ticket machine?

5 minutes, 10, 15, 20 ...

If my train arrives, have the facilities been unavailable and can I exercise that exclusion if a penalty fare is issued?

Edit

Read this to flesh it out. Note that all previous responses to post 23 have not had this information.

http://railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1049621&postcount=23

The simple answer is, as long as it takes. The passenger charter does not supersede the law, which states that you need to pay your fare if it is possible to do so.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

For the OPs situation, which is a PF station boarding a PF train, you must buy at the first available opportunity. If the payment method you wish to use is not available at your origin, that is not an opportunity!

If the method of payment you wish to use is not accepted, but you have another method of payment that is accepted, you would still be expected to buy a ticket before travelling.

 

[RJ]

I have an opinion, sometimes it agrees with the TOC's stance, sometimes agree with the passenger's view, other times I may or may not agree with both sides of the argument. That doesn't make me a 'friend of the TOC', but if it makes you feel better dishing out childish names then carry on.:roll:

Take no notice. When I used to give out advice based on the written rule, I used to get flak for it - see here where we had several members telling someone that it was ok to travel overdistance in a PF area, because the fare was the same and that the PF should be cancelled .

Then before long, several members started copying me in providing the type of advice that I was when they realised that their "pro passenger" rants were essentially useless when it comes to enforcement .

 

[Failed Unit]

The simple answer is, as long as it takes. The passenger charter does not supersede the law, which states that you need to pay your fare if it is possible to do so.

I know this is a discussion about Penalty Fares areas, but are you seriously suggesting that someone travelling from Dunbar to London should miss thier train because of a long queue and wait 2 hours, even if they had been queuing for 30 minutes already?

However - Penalty fare areas tend to have frequent services so I expect a wait longer than 30 minutes is unlikely.

The problem is things are impossible to prove as well. If I have a £4 fare and 4x £1 coins, the machine refuses to accept one of them (it happens) you board anyway you can't prove that is what really happened and you have a PF for the privalidge I am glad I live in an area the TVMs don't take cash.

 

[bluenoxid]

I know this is a discussion about Penalty Fares areas, but are you seriously suggesting that someone travelling from Dunbar to London should miss thier train because of a long queue and wait 2 hours, even if they had been queuing for 30 minutes already?

Unfortunately he is and the laws and rules in place state that. They don't have a time exclusion in place for what is classed as unavailable facilities. I would expect that it would be likely that someone would be issued with a PF and they would be forced to appeal when it would save the operator time, a lot of money and losing passengers, to have a reasonable expectation in place for service, which could be referred to as having not been achieved.

There is no one authorised to wave you through, so without any policy, you're stuffed.

 

[RJ]

I know this is a discussion about Penalty Fares areas, but are you seriously suggesting that someone travelling from Dunbar to London should miss thier train because of a long queue and wait 2 hours, even if they had been queuing for 30 minutes already?

That's precisely what I'm saying. Hopefully if that happens then someone from the TOC will provide you with permission to buy the full range on board, in the form of at least a stamped bit of paper with a note on it.

EMT are good in this respect as they offered me compensation after one of their air-headed ticket office clerks at Leicester made me miss my train after dithering for almost 20 minutes over a simple ticket that needed issuing.

 

[GadgetMan]

What is interesting is some of the most extreme waiting mentioned above is around the 15 - 20 minutes mark if you ignore the hypothetical scenarios.

If 20 minutes is really the worst people occasionally spend queueing then I do not think that is an unreasonable amount of time to allow for purchasing tickets before traveling.

 

[Wolfie]

If the method of payment you wish to use is not accepted, but you have another method of payment that is accepted, you would still be expected to buy a ticket before travelling.

Now that is an interesting and controversial statement which I would like to see justified.

You appear to be saying that a TOC, due to its own equipment inadequacies, could expect a passenger to leave themselves penniless as a result.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What is interesting is some of the most extreme waiting mentioned above is around the 15 - 20 minutes mark if you ignore the hypothetical scenarios.

If 20 minutes is really the worst people occasionally spend queueing then I do not think that is an unreasonable amount of time to allow for purchasing tickets before traveling.

Even if they therefore miss the last train of the day.l

A radical idea - how about the TOCS actually provide adequate and functioning facilities in sufficient quantities?

An even more radical idea - how about they are stripped of their franchises if they do not?

 

[SS4]

Now that is an interesting and controversial statement which I would like to see justified.

You appear to be saying that a TOC, due to its own equipment inadequacies, could expect a passenger to leave themselves penniless as a result.

Or worse if payment puts one overdrawn because cash isn't accepted. In this age of direct debits the ticket may not put one overdrawn but the bill will.
There is of course no compulsion to carry a debit/credit card and I cannot imagine a guard/RPI being legally empowered to search.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

That's precisely what I'm saying. Hopefully if that happens then someone from the TOC will provide you with permission to buy the full range on board, in the form of at least a stamped bit of paper with a note on it....

And which members of staff on these stations that have no open ticket office are wandering around with stamped pieces of paper ready for people who haven't got a ticket because of a long queue at a ticket machine?

 

[bluenoxid]

What is interesting is some of the most extreme waiting mentioned above is around the 15 - 20 minutes mark if you ignore the hypothetical scenarios.

If 20 minutes is really the worst people occasionally spend queueing then I do not think that is an unreasonable amount of time to allow for purchasing tickets before traveling.

What about 25 minutes. She left 15 minutes but the ticket queue had only half gone.

Why set 20 minutes? Is that satisfactory service for a ticket machine when they set 5-10 minutes for a booking office in peak times.

I am not saying you wrong but you have just made a statement that has increased a PAYG rail journey by 20 minutes.

 

[Failed Unit]

That's precisely what I'm saying. Hopefully if that happens then someone from the TOC will provide you with permission to buy the full range on board, in the form of at least a stamped bit of paper with a note on it.

EMT are good in this respect as they offered me compensation after one of their air-headed ticket office clerks at Leicester made me miss my train after dithering for almost 20 minutes over a simple ticket that needed issuing.

To be totally honest, I am not saying that it does not happen but I have never experienced the risk of missing a train because of excessive queuing, even at Lincoln Central where the staff can be doing a complex AP ticket (now that they don't have separate windows). The queues at the likes of Edinburgh Waverley and London Kings Cross look long but do flow quickly.

Small stations in penalty fare areas typically don't have long queue's even in the peaks that take more than 10 minutes to get past. Middle sized stations such as Finsbury Park they will open the gates if the queue is too long, and I guess the RPI can phone and check the confirmation before a PF is issued.

I would never collect an AP ticket on the day of travel at a small station, just in case for whatever reason the TVM is not working (I know it doesn't help if you go a couple of days before - but at least you have another attempt) But I would be interested to know how many people have had a genuine wait of more than 10 minutes for a ticket. My Dunbar example was extreme, but maybe a question for another thread, how many services in a penalty fare area are less frequent than one per hour? I can think of a few in Kent, but they are unstaffed stations and the trains have gaurds on them anyway.

 

[GadgetMan]

Why set 20 minutes? Is that satisfactory service for a ticket machine when they set 5-10 minutes for a booking office in peak times.

That is where you are going wrong. They are not saying you will be served within 5 minutes. The TOCs are saying they aim to serve you within 5 minutes where possible. In reality buying a ticket will take as long as it does.

For instance you can have a very underused station with a TVM that only gets 2 passengers a day. However they could both turn up at the same time and the first one takes 6 minutes to find the ticket they want and purchase it. Have the TOC provided ample facilities, well yes but that does not guarantee a maximum 5 minute wait.

 

[WelshBluebird]

What is interesting is some of the most extreme waiting mentioned above is around the 15 - 20 minutes mark if you ignore the hypothetical scenarios.

If 20 minutes is really the worst people occasionally spend queueing then I do not think that is an unreasonable amount of time to allow for purchasing tickets before traveling.

But at the same time, I think that turning up 15 - 20 minutes before your train is due is perfectly acceptable, and indeed having to turn up any length of time before that IMO is not acceptable.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

I was at St Austell a month ago, and whilst waiting for my train could see the ticket office. There were 2 windows open and a lady patienly waited 15 minutes to buy her ticket. (FGW now charge penalty fares, XC don't) A mother and daughter took turns to occupy one window for 15 minutes, and walked out without a ticket - (the guy must have the patience of Jove!!) And there was a reasonable queue. She got her ticket with 3 minutes to spare. You have to cross the footbridge to use the machine.
We now have a complicated fare system, and bank cards, which probably at least doubles/ triples the time to sell a ticket today.
It used to be destination, single or return? are you returning today? Cash - Less than a minute!!

Last year in France I bought a ticket for 12 Euros at Nantes, and the lady asked for cash! (espèce)

 

[radamfi]

As I pointed out earlier, the Dutch have removed the need ever to visit a TVM or ticket office with their smartcard system. Even without a smartcard, you can print any ticket at home, including walk up tickets valid on any train on a particular day.

Belgian Railways have a pragmatic system where they allow you to buy on the train at a modest supplement:

http://www.b-rail.be/nat/E/practical/pointsofsale/train/index.php

"If you board at a station where tickets are issued, but you still buy your ticket on the train, you will have to pay a supplement of 3,00 EUR. You need to tell the train staff in good time."