How was passenger travel handled during WW2?

[ChiefPlanner]

A reduced service ran certainly , but often strenghened to maximise loco power and paths , - someone I worked with many years ago fired a Kings Cross to Leeds train of 16 coaches aged under 20 , it very nearly killed him due to bad coal etc and refused to go beyond Doncaster - but was persuaded to carry on. However , it was possible to get reasonable travel conditions as written up in the reports for Mass Observation on even journeys like Newport to Crewe and Paddington towards Penzance.

War effort was not just lifting freight - the GWR for example served the war time factory at Tremains near Bridgend - and arranged a very comprehensive service feed workers in from the Valleys from all over. Many female workers on a 3 shift system , my own grand father commuted from the Amman Valley to Pembrey by rail and my mother - forced at 16 into the Metal Box factory at Neath by bus , but the latter always connected out of the down Swansea from London as it was an important connection for chunks of South West Wales. (she said that was tedious after a shift making ammo boxes !)

 

[Calthrop]

Off topic but I believe the first known train spotter was a girl who recorded details of trains on Brunel's then new line out of Paddington.

And there was George Stephenson's chum, the actress Frances Kemble; she managed to persuade him to give her a ride on the Rocket pre-opening of Liverpool & Manchester -- she reckoned the machine quite sweet and appealing. There've always been a few; but with accent very much, on the "few".

 

[Taunton]

Over in the USA in WW2 things were different, and the less-involved population complained about various delays and, especially, shortages of passenger vehicles. The railways there had a particular rush to move vast numbers of troops very long distances, exacerbated by the way the railroads there had been in steady decline ever since the Great Depression, followed by the rise of car and longer distance bus travel, leading to reductions in rolling stock. The New Haven railroad devised a series of advertisements (there seem a dozen or more, to explain what the missing passenger coaches were doing, the most famous being "The Kid in Upper 4" about a young recruit travelling across country by train to his embarkation point. "Upper 4" would be well recognised as a berth location in a sleeping car. Commonly felt to have been one of the media items that galvanised the country to a different view of events. Some here:

and

the kid in upper four - Google Search

There was a further USA rail movement, less publicly viewed but one which railroaders of the time took great pride in, in 1945 when the war in the Pacific suddenly ended in September 1945. By the time shipping was organised to bring the troops home, they were arriving at the Pacific ports at the end of November, into December. There was an enormous swell to "get them home for Christmas", including travelling thousands of rail miles onwards across the USA, journeys which took days in their own right. A vast move of empty stock across the country took place of pretty much anything whose wheels would turn, to pick them up and return. Soldiers were actually travelling, somewhat semi-officially, in boxcars, which the railway turned a blind eye to. The chaos at the points from Seattle down to San Diego was apparently amazing. When I lived in Los Angeles around 1980 there were still a couple of long-term rail employees who could recall it all.

 

[Rescars]

D L Smith tells a tale about a wartime Ardrossan - Kilmarnock evening train with just two carriages, into which they managed to pack the usual passengers, plus a party of 350 and a crowd heading to the dog track. They got 26 passengers and two greyhonds into one compartment (including children in the luggage racks). The guard had to lean out of the brake all the way until the party alighted whilst five off-duty railwaymen in the crowd accompanied the driver and fireman on the footplate. An object lesson in what could be done, perhaps!

 

[MP33]

My Father was in a reserved occupation and told me that even when the London Underground stations were being used as shelters, a limited service ran. It was for, ARP Wardens, Fire Watchers and the Emergency Services who during the Blitz were the majority of the passengers.

 

[John Webb]

There were also lots of workers factory commuter trains, from towns where people could find lodgings to the big wartime factories. Of course things like ammunition, bombs and ordnance tended to made in remote areas.

Even today if you go exploring in places like Pembrey country park, will find bits of concreted in rails where explosives were transferred to the mainline trains from the narrow gauge in the dunes. The site was used in both world wars, and in 1917 had over 4000 workers (was over 3000 in WW2), so needed workers to be brought in daily.

Haven't got any Railways at war books to hand, but there were a few stations that saw huge numbers compared to sleepy peacetime numbers. Some stations were also added for wartime workers eg Upper Halliford in Surrey

One of the best examples of 'stations added' for wartime use was the "Thorp Arch Circular Railway" off the Weatherby-Church Fenton line to serve a new Ordnance factory making bombs. Besides Thorp Arch station on the main line, there were 4 new stations built on this three and a half mile line to shift the workers coming in and out from nearby towns. It even remained open until August 1958 as the factory remained open after the end of WW2. (See "Railways around Harrogate Volume 3" by Martin Bairstow (published 1998) for an article on this line.)

 

[etr221]

A recent book is Railway Travel in World War Two by Peter Steer, which reports his research.

While the slogan may have been 'Is your journey really necessary?', there was a lot more necessary travel...

 

[StephenHunter]

A recent book is Railway Travel in World War Two by Peter Steer, which reports his research.

While the slogan may have been 'Is your journey really necessary?', there was a lot more necessary travel...

Can you post a link to that please?

Also, Ian Allan was still allowed to publish his first spotting guide for the Southern Railway in 1941.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

This book, presumably...

Published by Pen & Sword in 2023 with ISBN 9781399063173. Should be available (new) for a pound or two under £20.



(Front cover of Railway Travel in World War Two by Peter Steer.)

 

[Sun Chariot]

Can you post a link to that please?

Also, Ian Allan was still allowed to publish his first spotting guide for the Southern Railway in 1941.

Amazon has it for £18.85

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Railway-Travel-World-War-Two/dp/1399063170

I bought a copy earlier this week, via a book seller on eBay, for £17.95.
It's well researched and highly informative; it's nearly all text, so don't buy this book if you simply want photos of wartime trains.

 

[billio]

One of the best examples of 'stations added' for wartime use was the "Thorp Arch Circular Railway" off the Weatherby-Church Fenton line to serve a new Ordnance factory making bombs. Besides Thorp Arch station on the main line, there were 4 new stations built on this three and a half mile line to shift the workers coming in and out from nearby towns. It even remained open until August 1958 as the factory remained open after the end of WW2. (See "Railways around Harrogate Volume 3" by Martin Bairstow (published 1998) for an article on this line.)

A two part article appeared in British Railways Journal issue number 65 and 66, with a further letter in 66.

 

[Gloster]

A couple of days ago I came across an SR notice from 1939 headed Evacuation of Women and Children from London, Etc. On Friday 1 September Up and Down business trains would run as usual, with a few exceptions, but Main and Suburban services would be curtailed while the evacuation took place. On Saturday 2 and Sunday 3 the train service would be the same as Friday, but very few Down Mid-day business trains would run on Saturday.

 

[Taunton]

Evacuation of Women and Children from London, Etc. On Friday 1 September Up and Down business trains would run as usual, with a few exceptions, but Main and Suburban services would be curtailed while the evacuation took place.

Mr Taunton Senior saw this in progress as he arrived to work at Manchester. He was so appalled at what was happening that he went straight to the nearby recruitment office and signed up, although it was actually well controlled and he didn't get called to the military until a year later.

The children had needed some form of identification, railway ingenuity had come to the fore with what was available around stations, and they all had their names and details written on boxfuls of LMS luggage labels, tied on to their coats with string. This often forms a key part of media photographs of the event which are still around.

 

[billio]

How were POWs moved around the country in WW2 ? Did they travel by train ? I ask because the POW camp in Tadcaster was next to the station

 

[Mcr Warrior]

How were POWs moved around the country in WW2 ? Did they travel by train ? I ask because the POW camp in Tadcaster was next to the station

Almost certainly. Often as many Military Police guarding them as there were prisoners. Not all PoW camps were, however, directly rail served, as the camps tended to be located away from places of strategic significance (such as airfields or military HQ) where at all possible.

 

[Calthrop]

Almost certainly. Often as many Military Police guarding them as there were prisoners. Not all PoW camps were, however, directly rail served, as the camps tended to be located away from places of strategic significance (such as airfields or military HQ) where at all possible.

Absurd fantasy thing concerning Ireland (a place I love, though have been there very little, "real-time") -- I learn that there was a World War II POW camp at Markethill, County Armagh. On the Great Northern Railway of Ireland's Goraghwood -- Armagh branch line: closed in 1933 -- to all traffic Markethill to Armagh; Goraghwood to Markethill lasted for a couple more decades for freight. I envisage a trainload of German POWs on the way to said establishment: including Private Schulz, a gentle, harmless, a-political soul, and reluctant conscript -- main thing in his life, his being an impassioned railway enthusiast, and keen member of Germany's most-of-a-century-ago equivalent of our Continental Railway Circle. He accordingly pipes up, "Hey, guys, this is great ! We're covering extremely rare track... " Most polite expectable response would be, I feel: "Thank you, Albrecht -- we really wanted to know that."

 

[ChiefPlanner]

There was a fairly big (German) POW camp near Bridgend - scene of the great "Welsh Escape" where the prisoners were transported in a presumably GWR corridor set which had system maps in the compartments. Naturally the maps were nicked.

Fast forward to the breakout (by tunnel) but the escapees did not get far - one pair hopped a train of coal empties and ended up in Treherbet or similar , others were picked up on local buses as they failed to engage with the locals in conversation (said bus was diverted to a police station) and one pair stole the local GP's car but got no further than Gloucester where the fuel supply was exhausted. Not one got anywhere .......

 

[Calthrop]

Poor old Fritz had a bit of an unfair disadvantage there: we were on islands...

 

[norbitonflyer]

There was a fairly big (German) POW camp near Bridgend - scene of the great "Welsh Escape" where the prisoners were transported in a presumably GWR corridor set which had system maps in the compartments. Naturally the maps were nicked.

Fast forward to the breakout (by tunnel) but the escapees did not get far - one pair hopped a train of coal empties and ended up in Treherbet or similar , others were picked up on local buses as they failed to engage with the locals in conversation (said bus was diverted to a police station) and one pair stole the local GP's car but got no further than Gloucester where the fuel supply was exhausted. Not one got anywhere .......

Interesting - the National Archives at Kew are currently running an exhibition about POW escapes. https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/great-escapes/iconic-escape-stories/

They do have a display about the Welsh escape but some of the information above (eg the maps and the bus) is not mentioned there as far as I recall. I'm sure they would be interested to know more.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Poor old Fritz had a bit of an unfair disadvantage there: we were on islands...

Many moons ago, if I remember correctly, I picked up a paperback on escapee Germans in the UK during WW2. The one story that has stuck in the memory is of a breakout from a prison camp somewhere in Robin Hood line territory. I have a feeling it was maybe 8 or a dozen POWs, of whom none got very far. One didn't help himself by getting on a bus (to Chesterfield, IIRC) and clicking his heels when ordering his ticket. (Yes, really!)

I can't remember this next story being in the book, I've read it in the last 10 years or so, but I'm sure it HAD to have been in the book (because it's quite famous, for the genre) and as it involves railways it is vaguely on topic.

It involves two Luftwaffe pilots who were in a camp somewhere in the Kendal-Tebay area. They learned or noticed that freights slowed down (or maybe even stopped at Tebay for a banker, the story wasn't that hot on railway detail) on the climb to Shap. They also learned that there was a training airfield somewhere near Carlisle, and that the freights generally went close by.

So, probably one night they escaped, hitched a ride on the freight and managed not only to get into the airfield, but found a training aircraft and took off.

However, as they checked the fuel tanks and worked out a route for the continent, they realised they wouldn't have enough fuel to get across the North Sea. So they landed at an airfield in Norfolk somewhere in the hope of getting pinching some fuel for the remainder of the trip.

Apparently the alarm had been raised and they were greeted with a bit more of a security threat than they had met near Carlisle. After giving themselves up, they were treated to a meal in the officers'* mess before being chaperoned back to the north west.
* clearly the station commander can't have been Polish, or they'd probably found an excuse to shoot them.

 

[Calthrop]

Many moons ago, if I remember correctly, I picked up a paperback on escapee Germans in the UK during WW2. The one story that has stuck in the memory is of a breakout from a prison camp somewhere in Robin Hood line territory. I have a feeling it was maybe 8 or a dozen POWs, of whom none got very far. One didn't help himself by getting on a bus (to Chesterfield, IIRC) and clicking his heels when ordering his ticket. (Yes, really!)

I can't remember this next story being in the book, I've read it in the last 10 years or so, but I'm sure it HAD to have been in the book (because it's quite famous, for the genre) and as it involves railways it is vaguely on topic.

It involves two Luftwaffe pilots who were in a camp somewhere in the Kendal-Tebay area. They learned or noticed that freights slowed down (or maybe even stopped at Tebay for a banker, the story wasn't that hot on railway detail) on the climb to Shap. They also learned that there was a training airfield somewhere near Carlisle, and that the freights generally went close by.

So, probably one night they escaped, hitched a ride on the freight and managed not only to get into the airfield, but found a training aircraft and took off.

However, as they checked the fuel tanks and worked out a route for the continent, they realised they wouldn't have enough fuel to get across the North Sea. So they landed at an airfield in Norfolk somewhere in the hope of getting pinching some fuel for the remainder of the trip.

Apparently the alarm had been raised and they were greeted with a bit more of a security threat than they had met near Carlisle. After giving themselves up, they were treated to a meal in the officers'* mess before being chaperoned back to the north west.

I recall a tale, in some book about the 1939 -- 45 unpleasantness and prisoners therein: couple of German POWs escape from camp in Scotland, and get on a train heading far south (getting out of Britain envisagedly easier, across the "narrow seas") -- they belatedly become worried about whether there is a situation at the Anglo-Scottish border, re passports, permits. etc. -- in which case, they've got problems. Conversation, sotto voce:

"I'm not sure, but I kind-of think I've heard that it's all one country here -- like with Prussia and Bavaria back home -- we'll be all right."

"But what if it isn't?"

"Then we're stuffed, aren't we? They'll rumble us and send us back to the camp."

"But that would be terrible..."

"This is a hopeless enterprise anyway -- we'll never get home -- at best, we'll screw the Brits around a bit: while they're chasing us, there's a bit less they can be doing to harm Germany".

"Some Nazi you are."

"Perhaps you ought to join the real world..."

In fact, the first speaker turns out, re the border, to be right; but the duo are later on, found out and returned to whence they came.

* clearly the station commander can't have been Polish, or they'd probably found an excuse to shoot them.

Or perhaps -- I'm fond of the Poles -- he'd have been an extremely decent chap, and devout Catholic -- big on "render unto no man evil for evil" -- "nothing personal", etc.; and would have given them the meal and chaperonage anyway -- all things are possible...

 

[Ianigsy]

If you look at where the POW camps were, a number of country houses seem to have been requisitioned to house the officers while Camps were set up for the ranks. Prisoners in large numbers were only really an issue after the victories in North Africa - prior to that they’d have been sailors and airmen, because after Dunkirk we weren’t engaging the German and Italian armies in any number.