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Italy-somewhat off the beaten track questioins

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Steve4031

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I am looking at traveling around Italy on the train. I am interested in routes that I believe are not traveled so much by tourists. The first is from Milan to Lecce. The second would be South of Naples heading towards Sicily. My question: If I am booking FRECCIAROSSa, Frecciargento, or Frecciabianca, will I be assured of receiving the advertised food and beverage services as I travel further south?

How scenic is the line from Bologna to Lecce? How scenic is the line from Naples south to Reggio de Calabria (I know I misspelled this one)?
 
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Iskra

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These aren’t particularly off the beaten track, although they are interesting- these are two of the mainlines in Italy.

Catering is patchy in my opinion and I would not rely on it, much better to stock up with provisions or eat a nice meal off the train. Station food outlets tend to have more normal prices than in the UK.

I’ve only done Milan/Bologna/Rome-Bari (Taranto) on night trains with daylight starting around Bari- although I don’t believe it’s particularly scenic. Naples to Reggio Calabria is much more scenic and a very enjoyable journey. As an enthusiast I would recommend the InterCity trains as they are loco hauled, cheap, comfortable and some of them even go on the ferry over to Sicily too, which is a unique experience in Europe.

Just as an additional point; for Sicily most people change for (or are loaded onto) the ferry at Villa San Giovanni, it is not necessary to travel all of the way to Reggio Calabria to travel to Sicily. It is possible to do so, but it is cheaper and easier to cross at Villa San Giovanni or buy a train ticket for one of the train-ferry services; at Reggio you would have a reasonable walk or need to change onto a local service for the most convenient ferry there.
 
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Cheshire Scot

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Naples to Reggio Calabria is much more scenic and a very enjoyable journey. As an enthusiast I would recommend the InterCity trains as they are loco hauled, cheap, comfortable and some of them even go on the ferry over to Sicily too, which is a unique experience in Europe.
Definite vote for Naples to Reggio Calabria / Sicily, the train ferry experience and Sicily itself too.

I also recall from many years ago Rome to Pescara being a pleasantly scenic secondary route, I don't recall the exact detail but neither the loco nor stock were at all 'up to date' compared to other routes back then.
 

D6130

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Definite vote for Naples to Reggio Calabria / Sicily, the train ferry experience and Sicily itself too.
Agreed.
I also recall from many years ago Rome to Pescara being a pleasantly scenic secondary route, I don't recall the exact detail but neither the loco nor stock were at all 'up to date' compared to other routes back then.
That route is spectacular in places....crossing the Appennine Mountains with some amazing long-distance views. It is not fast however and has a fairly sparse end-to-end service, worked nowadays by 'Medium Distance' push-pull sets powered by single-ended class E464 electric locomotives.
The first is from Milan to Lecce.
Although it has some distant views of the Appennines, Italy's 'East Coast Main Line' has much in common with it's UK equivalent. From Milano to Rimini it's as flat as a pancake....a fast, level run through uninspiring agricultural countryside, punctuated by various historic towns and cities. From Rimini Southwards the line hugs the Adriatic coast for most of the way to Bari, with views towards the inland mountains, but still mainly level. From Bari to Lecce the line stays close to the sea, but is mainly a little way inland, passing through kilometres of olive groves and vineyards.

Other scenic routes in the peninsular that are worth doing include Bologna-Firenze-Roma on the classic (non-high speed) line; (Roma)-Orte-Foligno-Ancona (spectacular mountains and gorges); Napoli-Caserta-Benevento-Foggia (ditto) and (Napoli)-Battipaglia-Potenza-Metaponto-Taranto (ditto). For pleasant views of the lush, rolling countryside of Tuscany, I can recommend Firenze-Empoli-Siena and Siena-Sinalunga-Chiusi....these last two still with diesel traction, although the class D445 locos and older railcars are rapidly being replaced by new class HT312/412 hybrid units. Feel free to DM me nearer to your departure for further details. Oh....and follow the advice given upthread and stock up on food and drink before each journey - especially the further South you go - and don't be surprised if you find yourself sharing a compartment with an Italian family and they offer to share their picnic with you. It would be most impolite to refuse and you may make friends for life!
 

nwales58

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... most people change for (or are loaded onto) the ferry at Villa San Giovanni, it is not necessary to travel all of the way to Reggio Calabria to travel to Sicily. It is possible to do so ...
Minor point, the Blu Jet passenger hydrojet service from Reggio to Messina ceased in October 2023 so Villa S.G. is by far the best option. Vehicle ferries from Reggio di Calabria still exist.

Blu Jet is owned by FS and the services are sort-of timed to connect with !ong distance services and wait up to 15' for late trains (not for late regionals). see blujetlines.it for PFDs of what is supposed to connect.
 

W-on-Sea

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Bologna to Lecce is a pleasant enough ride - not incredibly scenic: you are of course right on the coast for a very substantial proportion of the journey, so if you like sea views...you have them. The inland stretch is flat and in places marshy, not amazing scenery to be found in general (a few domed churches scatter the landscape though), then for a time near Rimini, San Marino looms large inland. The central sea stretch....is a railway line next to the coast, passing lots of resorts. The southernmost coastal stretch, once you are into Puglia, is a bit more characterful - olive plantations, prickly pear plants abounding too, but you generally won't get to see the interesting parts of the few cities you pass through on the train. Lecce is a fantastic city, once you get there, though.
 

Iskra

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Minor point, the Blu Jet passenger hydrojet service from Reggio to Messina ceased in October 2023 so Villa S.G. is by far the best option. Vehicle ferries from Reggio di Calabria still exist.

Blu Jet is owned by FS and the services are sort-of timed to connect with !ong distance services and wait up to 15' for late trains (not for late regionals). see blujetlines.it for PFDs of what is supposed to connect.
Thanks for that information, I thought that Bluejet hydrojet service from Reggio quite expensive anyway. I’m glad to have done it, but I won’t miss it, I’ll now discount it as an option for future journeys.
 

Snow1964

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How scenic is the line from Bologna to Lecce? How scenic is the line from Naples south to Reggio de Calabria (I know I misspelled this one)?
Bologna is inland, and there are quite lot of hills and tunnels going south from there.

Basically can go South on lots of new lines towards Roma and Napoli, then take a line across to Adriatic coast, or head east to coast and run along the coast.

There is a new high speed line under construction across the hills east of Naples, think it will be about another 5 years. The Adriatic main line has been rebuilt from single track over last couple of decades, some cut offs of curvy bits also happened. When I was last there was still a short bit north of Bari still to be rebuilt.

The Southern section from Bari to Lecce is not that scenic, just miles of small olive groves. The line is generally mile or two inland along coastal plain, with huge rocky plateau with hill towns inland. These are very interesting. (All but the smallest stations have buses running from coastal resorts via the station to the hill towns) Lecce is very touristy (often called Florence of the South) but worth strolling around too for a day. There is a railway museum there too. Puglia is definitely worth seeing (but avoid July, August and early September as it is very crowded with Italian vacationers and uncomfortably hot for sightseeing).
 

nwales58

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Thanks for that information, I thought that Bluejet hydrojet service from Reggio quite expensive anyway. I’m glad to have done it, but I won’t miss it, I’ll now discount it as an option for future journeys.
Eur 2.50 single Villa S.G-Messina, I believe.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I can only comment on the Naples-Villa S Giovanni route, but that run is continuously superb, often right next to the sea.
I went on the through IC day train from Rome to Sicily, so went directly onto the ferry for Messina and down the east coast of Sicily with more wide views.
The only refreshment was an itinerant coffee seller (serving from a back-pack!) right at the start at Naples.
Remember trains from Roma reverse in Napoli Centrale so choose your seat wisely - I didn't!
There are refreshments on the ferry.
There's a parallel Le Frecce service from Rome to Reggio, but it is no faster than the IC south of Naples.
Best town I visited was Siracusa at the foot of Sicily.

Further north, the HSL is nearly all in tunnel from Bologna to Florence, and the 1930s Direttissima also has a long 19km tunnel.
The original line, the hilly Porrettana via Pistoia, is still there but it's slow and you need to change at Prato.
The Ligurian coast line is very scenic (Genoa-Ventimiglia), except where FS has diverted the line inland to free up the coastal strip for development.
 

Iskra

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I can only comment on the Naples-Villa S Giovanni route, but that run is continuously superb, often right next to the sea.
I went on the through IC day train from Rome to Sicily, so went directly onto the ferry for Messina and down the east coast of Sicily with more wide views.
The only refreshment was an itinerant coffee seller (serving from a back-pack!) right at the start at Naples.
Remember trains from Roma reverse in Napoli Centrale so choose your seat wisely - I didn't!
There are refreshments on the ferry.
There's a parallel Le Frecce service from Rome to Reggio, but it is no faster than the IC south of Naples.
Best town I visited was Siracusa at the foot of Sicily.

Further north, the HSL is nearly all in tunnel from Bologna to Florence, and the 1930s Direttissima also has a long 19km tunnel.
The original line, the hilly Porrettana via Pistoia, is still there but it's slow and you need to change at Prato.
The Ligurian coast line is very scenic (Genoa-Ventimiglia), except where FS has diverted the line inland to free up the coastal strip for development.
Salerno is where the High Speed Line ends.

I agree about Siracusa- one of my favourite Italian towns.
 

Steve4031

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Thank you for the information. This helps me. How safe is it to get around Palermo? Is it possible to use uber there? Anything I should be aware of besides the usual risks of any large city?
 
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richw

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As an enthusiast I would recommend the InterCity trains as they are loco hauled, cheap, comfortable
Although when I did them in august they had no aircon and it was deeply unpleasant in the august heat
 

Iskra

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Although when I did them in august they had no aircon and it was deeply unpleasant in the august heat
You must have been very unlucky, as I'm yet to encounter an IC train with non-functioning or poor aircon in 15 years of travel over there. I have been on some regional trains where that has been an issue, but never a long distance train, although I'm sure my time will come :D
 

JB_B

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... How safe is it to get around Palermo? ...

I've visited Palermo a few times - never felt unsafe.

If you get a chance to go to Sicily then see if you can fit in Siracusa ( as others have mentioned upthread) and also the line from there towards Gela via Scicli, Modica, Ragusa and Donnafugata (all worth a visit).

In response to your initial post, I think that Lecce is a good choice - certainly not off the beaten track but avoids the overcrowding you can find at times in Venice, Florence, etc. Maybe head south from there onto the FSE network - Gallipoli, Otranto, etc.
 
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richw

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You must have been very unlucky, as I'm yet to encounter an IC train with non-functioning or poor aircon in 15 years of travel over there. I have been on some regional trains where that has been an issue, but never a long distance train, although I'm sure my time will come :D
3 different loco haul journeys all no air con!!
On the other hand the double decker trains I found the aircon very cold which was a god send as I was there in the European heat wave
 

D6130

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The original line, the hilly Porrettana via Pistoia, is still there but it's slow and you need to change at Prato.
Nowadays you have to change at Porretta Terme and Pistoia, but it's very scenic -especially the Southern section between Porretta and Pistoia - and well worth doing if you have the time. Porretta itself is a pleasant and relaxed little spa town high in the Appennines with several reasonably-priced hotels and B&Bs, which would make a nice overnight stop if you are in the area.

The other very scenic trans-Appennine route in the same general area - but, unlike the Porrettana, not electrified - is the 'Faentina' from Firenze to Faenza, with connections from there to Ravenna. This line has two branches from Firenze as far as Borgo San Lorenzo at its Western end. The through trains to Faenza via Vaglia - approximately every two hours - are formed of 'Minuetto' 3 car articulated DMUs which, although slightly noisy and rattly nowadays (built 2005-07), have big windows which line up with seats in the two end cars and are great for enjoying the spectacular views in the mountains. The other route, which terminates at Borgo SL, serves a more populous area - although still with very pleasant hilly Tuscan scenery - and runs hourly with a mix of 'Minuetto' DMUs and class D445 diesel loco powered push-pull sets.

If you like 'Private' lines - actually nowadays owned by a consortium of different local authorities - the Trasporto Ferroviario Toscano line from Arezzo to Stia is a very pretty run up the Arno Valley between the Pratomagno mountains and the main Appennine chain. Pre-Covid, it - and its sister line from Arezzo to Sinalunga - were operated by a veritable working museum of ancient electric locos, railcars, motor luggage vans and carriages. However they are all now stored in various states of disrepair, vandalism and graffiti in sidings at the various stations along the two lines and services are operated by modern 'Elfo', 'Jazz' and 'Pop' EMUs identical to their Trenitalia sisters. Incidentally, you buy your tickets for these lines from the bookstall in Arezzo station and then stamp them in the green and grey Trenitalia validators.

A final scenic route in Tuscany is the 'Garfagnana' line from Lucca to Aulla Lunigiana, which follows the valley of the River Serchio between high, rugged mountains before passing over high viaducts and through long tunnels, then descending to join the La Spezia-Parma line - itself quite scenic - at Aulla. This line is now operated entirely by Polish-built Pesa class ATR200 'Swing' three car DMUs and the best views are generally on the West side of the line....except between Borgo a Mozzano and Bagni di Lucca, were a change of sides is required to see and photograph the incredibly-graceful 11th century bridge across the river, 'Il Ponte della Maddelena', one end of which the railway passes underneath.
 

AdamWW

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I’ve only done Milan/Bologna/Rome-Bari (Taranto) on night trains with daylight starting around Bari- although I don’t believe it’s particularly scenic. Naples to Reggio Calabria is much more scenic and a very enjoyable journey. As an enthusiast I would recommend the InterCity trains as they are loco hauled, cheap, comfortable and some of them even go on the ferry over to Sicily too, which is a unique experience in Europe.

I caught the Palermo - Milan overnight train earlier this year and found the train ferry part of it fascinating - much more so than the other journeys I've done on train ferries (sadly no longer running).

The coaches were shunted on and off by diesel shunters with reach vehicles (two wagons with concrete sleepers on, presumably for weight, and an old carriage), and on the Sicilian side the two portions (Palermo and Syracuse) were briefly combined for the short shunt to the ferry, where they were split again to fit onto the boat.

I got to stand at the front as the coaches were propelled onto the ferry and the whole thing was quite an experience - very old school.

Great scenery between Palermo and the ferry and indeed during the short crossing. I can't speak for the bit after that because it got dark.

The journey was ridiculously cheap too, even for two people to have sole occupancy of a 4 person couchette.

Friendly staff too.

Though I did get the smallest biscuit I've seen in my life for breakfast.

Anyway, I'd highly recommend it (the trip, not the biscuit).
 

Seehof

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An interesting thread as my wife and I are planning a rail trip around Italy. Are there any small places that are easily accessible by train in the East and Southern parts of Italy (excluding Sicily)that especially interesting? We know about Matera. We like coastal and mountain places with character that are not too big. Thank you.
 

Iskra

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An interesting thread as my wife and I are planning a rail trip around Italy. Are there any small places that are easily accessible by train in the East and Southern parts of Italy (excluding Sicily)that especially interesting? We know about Matera. We like coastal and mountain places with character that are not too big. Thank you.
Tropea in Calabria is a very popular tourist town, with nice beaches too. As already mentioned Lecce is well reviewed. I quite like Catanzaro Citta too- accessed by a circulating rack and pinion narrow gauge line partially within a hilltop- probably one of Italy’s most interesting bits of railway. Matera is on the local narrow gauge lines I believe- it’s very much on my to do list :)
 
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Djgr

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Eur 2.50 single Villa S.G-Messina, I believe.
One way that I got caught out when I did a similar trip last year was that there are two ferry companies running this route. One arrives in Messina near to the station and the other (my choice!) around a twenty minute (hot) walk away, albeit on a tram line. I'm sure it is obvious which ferry is which but I found public information disappeared on arrival at Villa S.G.!
 
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Djgr

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Thank you for the information. This helps me. How safe is it to get around Palermo? Is it possible to use uber there? Anything I should be aware of besides the usual risks of any large city?
Palermo is frantic and noisy but not unsafe. Traditional taxis are probably more the norm but to be honest it is a city for walking in.

I've visited Palermo a few times - never felt unsafe.

If you get a chance to go to Sicily then see if you can fit in Siracusa ( as others have mentioned upthread) and also the line from there towards Gela via Scicli, Modica, Ragusa and Donnafugata (all worth a visit).

In response to your initial post, I think that Lecce is a good choice - certainly not off the beaten track but avoids the overcrowding you can find at times in Venice, Florence, etc. Maybe head south from there onto the FSE network - Gallipoli, Otranto, etc.
Yes, if I were to visit Lecce again I would do that. I came down on the train from Rome to Lecce last year and found it a good place for several days (expect everything to shut in the mid afternoon for several hours and then spring to life!!)
 

Snow1964

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An interesting thread as my wife and I are planning a rail trip around Italy. Are there any small places that are easily accessible by train in the East and Southern parts of Italy (excluding Sicily)that especially interesting? We know about Matera. We like coastal and mountain places with character that are not too big. Thank you.

Lecce is worth seeing, station is on edge of town

Alberobello and some other nearby hill towns impressive with their Trulli (conical stone roofed houses where in some ancient times having a roof you could dismantle avoided property tax), unusual but would need to get a bus as they are on plateau and line to Bari is along coast (nearest mainline station is Fassano)

Ostuni, another Hill town is worth seeing, again bus from the station as it is on a hill

Brindisi is a very old city (ignore modern outskirts), and similarly Taranto, worth walking around the old towns

All the historic areas of these will get very busy in high season (mid July - mid September), but often too hot to walk around comfortably then anyway (can be 40c) , so try and go mid April-June or mid September to end October.

We went end Oct and first few days of Nov (but also hired car for few days), was sunny and still upto 25c, still warm enough to swim in sea. There is an Italian bank holiday 1st November and that weekend was busier, then everything outside shuts down for winter. We were lucky, It started raining and temperature fell about 10c on day we were leaving
 
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D6130

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(expect everything to shut in the mid afternoon for several hours and then spring to life!!)
That's normal throughout Italy! Shops tend to close either 12 30 - 15 30 or 13 00 - 16 00 for the long Italian lunch break and then close again in the evening at either 19 30 or 20 00. Banks and post offices tend to keep more restricted hours....often not opening again in the afternoon in smaller places.
Alberobello and some other nearby hill towns impressive with their Trulli (conical stone roofed houses where in some ancient times having a roof you could dismantle avoided property tax), unusual but would need to get a bus as they are on plateau and line to Bari is along coast (nearest station is Fassano)
Alberobello has a station - which is close to the town centre - on the FSE Bari-Taranto/Lecce inland route. It's a UNESCO world heritage site and is very much on the international tourist trail these days. Nearby Martina Franca and Locorotondo - which also have FSE stations - might be better bets.
 

Snow1964

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Alberobello has a station - which is close to the town centre - on the FSE Bari-Taranto/Lecce inland route. It's a UNESCO world heritage site and is very much on the international tourist trail these days. Nearby Martina Franca and Locorotondo - which also have FSE stations - might be better bets.
Forgot about the FSE local trains, my oversight

However do be aware that some sections are suspended at times for electrification works (they are doing it with standard lattice masts and by using factory made standard components seem to justify doing less busy lines than UK)

 

railfan99

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How safe is it to get around Palermo?

I was in Palermo within the last month, but stayed for only one night in an hotel along Via Roma a few hundred metres from the impressive railway station.

Footpaths were in poor repair, but even walking at night to and from a restaurant, I did not feel unsafe. For a major street, the lighting was not quite up to the standard you and I might be used to.
 

CCnottoolate

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I can not comment on how scenic the routes will be but I would probably take my own refreshment on board as I know from experience that you are not guaranteed the advertised food/beverage.
 
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