Northern - strict on one hand, not on the other

[Bletchleyite]

I noted the attached at Windermere on Sunday. Generally it's taken that if a TVM is present it must be used, but this appears to give written permission to buy from the guard if preferred.

I wonder if Carlisle at Manchester would be nice about it? I bet they wouldn't... (The train after I saw it was a through train to Manchester, and no ticket check occurred before Preston at least...)

Sign reads:

This ticket office will close today at 5.00pm.
and re-open tomorrow at
10.30 am
Tickets can be purchased from the machine outside the station, or from the guard on the train.
We apologise for the inconvenience.

It does strike me as an example of some staff still acting in the old, lenient way when others, if you meet the wrong one, will result in you being written up for prosecution (or at least a £100 settlement) if you follow it. Certainly advisable to take a picture!

 

[Titfield]

Yes consistency and discretion are an issue but one that will never be resolved because one persons jobsworth is another's following the rules, one persons flexibility is anothers inconsistency.

Given that I like many of us have the means to take large numbers of pictures at my disposal, I always photograph any departure display that shows delayed or cancelled trains. If a TVM is out of order or the ticket office is closed I take a photograph of that too. Once on a lengthy diversion caused by a broken down freight train I took pictures of a couple of the stations we went through as proof I was on the diverted train. Ironically I have never once had to use those images to obtain delay repay or resolve any other issue!

 

[Ducatist4]

EMR on the Robin Hood Line have been happily selling tickets on the train for a few months now even with fully working TVM's. I've not been there to see how the Revenue Protection staff might deal with this though but its again normalizing the incorrect process.

 

[KirkstallOne]

Yes if the Carlisle lot are going to have a zero tolerance approach they need to make sure the messaging across the business is accurate and consistent. I did notice they have changed the out of order message on their TVMs to advise buying online or speaking to the guard. That may be good advice but obviously it is not required by law.

 

[185]

Meeting the wrong one (member of staff) - the question needs to be asked regarding the training program signed off by Northern's head of department, and if there is a clear explanation of when it is right to issue a penalty fare, TIR or report for prosecution and... when it's not right - ie. in situations like this. There seems to be no comeback for staff (observing their pay/RPI/AC numbers on PF/TIR receipts) repeatedly making the same errors - similar with Merseyrail, with some very familiar 'authorised collector' numbers appearing on our website's threads.

The buck stops with their head of department - and if he doesn't deal with this he should be replaced.

 

[19Gnasher69]

Yes, this serial inconsistency is deplorable.
A couple of years ago my daughter boarded a train at Crossflatts on the Airedale Line. She requested a return ticket to Leeds from the conductor and proffered her debit card. She was chastised for not having bought a ticket beforehand, her name was taken and she was fined with the threat of a court appearance. She was not a regular train traveller, the eastbound platform at Crossflatts has no ticket vending machines (if you don’t use the car park alongside the westbound platform, you’d not notice that it’s there) and it had always been tacitly accepted that buying tickets on the Airedale Line was legitimate.
The episode left a very sour taste, exaggerated by the fact that a FOI showed that Northern sold tens of thousands of on-train tickets (without promise-to-pay print-outs) on the Airedale and Wharfedale Lines for the six months prior to and six months after my daughter’s fine. This is despite all stations on these lines having ticket offices or TVMs on both platforms.
She no longer uses trains because of Northern’s attitude and hostility to someone clearly asking to pay for a ticket but I still see people being sold tickets on the trains, even when boarding at Bingley or Shipley.

 

[wilsontown]

Yes, this how people get in bother. If you live somewhere where it's absolutely routine to buy on the train, a penalty fare when you try doing the same thing elsewhere is going to come as something of a shock.

 

[robbeech]

The railway runs on inconsistency and complexity. It’s pretty much all it has left.
When you step back and think about the whole thing it’s beyond all levels of madness.

You want to pay money to use a service. The service provider gives you, in writing, several options for how you can pay for this service. By choosing 1 or more of these options given to you in writing you run the risk of having to stand up in court threatened with a fine of anything up to £1000 and face a criminal record.
What’s more, there are literally hundreds of individuals employed within a good number of different organisations whose sole purpose is to regulate the railway yet this stuff is out there, happening all the time with absolutely zero inclination of any of them to consider doing anything about it.
People get annoyed when they hear the phrase “the railway is run entirely for the benefit of the railway” but it’s incredibly accurate.

EMR on the Robin Hood Line have been happily selling tickets on the train for a few months now even with fully working TVM's. I've not been there to see how the Revenue Protection staff might deal with this though but it’s again normalizing the incorrect process.

Whilst not really for this thread : Please provide a list of fully working machines on the Robin Hood line. Whitwell Touch screen has not worked properly since before the Pandemic and has been reported by me through various means no less than 14 times.
Langwith has been “offline” everytime I’ve seen it. Sutton Parkway has 2 machines, both were offline the other week so no TOD could be done and no tickets outside the immediate EMR area could be purchased. They’re monumentally unreliable.

 

[ikcdab]

I noted the attached at Windermere on Sunday. Generally it's taken that if a TVM is present it must be used, but this appears to give written permission to buy from the guard if preferred.

I wonder if Carlisle at Manchester would be nice about it? I bet they wouldn't... (The train after I saw it was a through train to Manchester, and no ticket check occurred before Preston at least...)

Sign reads:

This ticket office will close today at 5.00pm.
and re-open tomorrow at
10.30 am
Tickets can be purchased from the machine outside the station, or from the guard on the train.
We apologise for the inconvenience.

It does strike me as an example of some staff still acting in the old, lenient way when others, if you meet the wrong one, will result in you being written up for prosecution (or at least a £100 settlement) if you follow it. Certainly advisable to take a picture!

So in your photo there is the start of an official notice beginning "when the ticket".
What does that say and did it override the unofficial notice?

 

[Ducatist4]

The one on Shirebrook station Nottingham bound platform has been working every time I’ve been there. No idea about the other stations as I don’t use them.

 

[etr221]

So in your photo there is the start of an official notice beginning "when the ticket".
What does that say and did it override the unofficial notice?

Or vice versa?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So in your photo there is the start of an official notice beginning "when the ticket".
What does that say and did it override the unofficial notice?

If I recall rightly it points to the TVM and says to use that. It might also mention the Northern app, I can't remember. I'm pretty sure it doesn't mention the guard.

One assumes though that the booking office staff (the only people who would have been in a position to post that on the inside of a locked booking office door) is an Authorised Person, however...

The implication might be "or if you can't, e.g. you want a Priv or to pay cash" but it needs to say that.

 

[Turtle]

I noted the attached at Windermere on Sunday. Generally it's taken that if a TVM is present it must be used, but this appears to give written permission to buy from the guard if preferred.

I wonder if Carlisle at Manchester would be nice about it? I bet they wouldn't... (The train after I saw it was a through train to Manchester, and no ticket check occurred before Preston at least...)

Sign reads:

This ticket office will close today at 5.00pm.
and re-open tomorrow at
10.30 am
Tickets can be purchased from the machine outside the station, or from the guard on the train.
We apologise for the inconvenience.

It does strike me as an example of some staff still acting in the old, lenient way when others, if you meet the wrong one, will result in you being written up for prosecution (or at least a £100 settlement) if you follow it. Certainly advisable to take a picture!

Definitely old school. Not even 24 hour clock.