Old Git Bus Passes

[Blakey2024]

An infuriating story about buses and petty bureaucracy by local councils in Kent and Medway https://brexitrage.com/on-the-buses/

Medway Council’s OAP bus scheme tells me that I must not travel before 9.00 am but can travel freely all day from then on. This is the same as in London which is much busier. Kent County Council’s OAP bus scheme says that I can not travel free after 11.00 pm. You may be thinking “perhaps the buses are crowded?” NO – there were just 7 people on my bus and it is fairly empty most times that I have used it. You may also be thinking “perhaps they have a night bus scheme?” NO – as far as I can tell there are only buses after 11 pm in town centres. Only one runs to Gillingham and another to Tunbridge Wells.

On the evening in question I got on as usual and the young driver said that my pass was not valid after 11 pm. I explained that it was a Medway Bus Pass and the T&C’s indicated otherwise. I said I would find them and show him. A couple of stops later, I did so. He continued to argue, saying that the bus was in Kent and not Medway. I explained that the bus had come from Medway, is garaged in Medway and I am from Medway. I offered to get some money from a cashpoint on my return to the destination. He accepted that.

A few more stops on and he stopped the bus, got out and made a phone call (presumably to his boss). This took several minutes and I presume he hoped that this would irritate the other passengers and that they would apply social pressure to me. They did not. He got back in the bus and went through the same arguments and I in return repeated my offer to pay him at the end point. He carried on driving.

We arrived in Chatham bus station and I asked him to wait whilst I got some money. He refused to do so, so I got off and got a local bus home. The driver of the second bus thought the whole episode ridiculous given the fare lost (£2.00) and the fact that none of the buses have passengers at this time of night and so on.

Should Kent County Council operate a border post between Medway and Kent to collect the £2.00?

Thoughts welcome

Peter aka Blakey

 

[neilmc]

I would have thought that the time validity is determined by the rules in place with the authority at the place ones boards the bus and nothing to do with who issued the pass.

I think the 23:00 cutoff (for authorities who apply it strictly) is to prevent oldies riding round all night where that is possible, but 23:00 is an early cutoff for those who go on nights out.

 

[HullRailMan]

An infuriating story about buses and petty bureaucracy by local councils in Kent and Medway https://brexitrage.com/on-the-buses/

Thoughts welcome

Peter aka Blakey

Medway Council’s website is quite clear that passes they issue are only valid until 11pm in Kent. https://www.medway.gov.uk/info/200161/travel/471/apply_for_a_concessionary_bus_pass/3#:~:text=terms and conditions-,When you can use a bus pass,Nu-Venture and Redroute buses

Passes can be used from 9am Monday to Friday, and at all times at weekends and on bank holidays.

Concessionary bus passes give you free bus travel in:

Medway on services provided by Arriva, ASD, Chalkwell, Farleigh Coaches, Nu-Venture and Redroute buses
Kent and the rest of England from 9.30am to 11pm Monday to Friday and any time weekends and bank holidays.

 

[stevieinselby]

An infuriating story about buses and petty bureaucracy by local councils in Kent and Medway https://brexitrage.com/on-the-buses/

Thoughts welcome

Peter aka Blakey

Unfortunately whenever anything is devolved there will be lines drawn.

The requirement to accept bus passes applies to journeys starting between 0930 and 2300 on weekdays, and at any time on weekends and bank holidays.
Local authorities may offer enhancements to that, such as allowing travel before 0930 (many apply it from 0900) or after 2300, or allowing a companion pass for disabled passengers, or on tourist routes, but these are discretionary.
What I can't see a definitive ruling on is what happens if you start your journey in the small hours of Saturday morning. Does a journey starting at 0030 count as the end of Friday's service (and so is after 2300 and not eligible) or a Saturday service (and so is eligible)?

The rules that apply are determined by where you start your journey, as that is the council that will reimburse the bus company for your travel.

It is not uncommon to have buses that have different rules applying at different points – for example, York and North Yorkshire allow travel from 0900, but neighbouring councils in East, West & South Yorkshire, Lancashire and Tees Valley don't, meaning that (for example) passengers travelling from Harrogate to Leeds can use their pass from 0900, but travelling from Leeds to Harrogate on the same bus route can't use them until 0930. There will even be journeys where passengers travelling north from Harewood can't use their pass, but if they were to walk a mile north and over the county line, they would be able to use their pass on the same actual bus.

It does feel like the 2300 cut-off is unnecessary – I would be surprised if there were many services that were that busy after 2300 that they wanted to deter pensioners from using them – but if those are the rules that are in place then drivers are required to enforce them, and not doing so could get them into trouble if they were found out. And be careful what you wish for – if you are arguing that we should have consistency across councils and not have neighbouring councils with different rules then the almost inevitable implication of that would be that all councils would remove all discretionary elements of the pass, and it would be stripped back to the statutory minimum everywhere, to many passengers' detriment.

 

[Blakey2024]

Medway Council’s website is quite clear that passes they issue are only valid until 11pm in Kent. https://www.medway.gov.uk/info/200161/travel/471/apply_for_a_concessionary_bus_pass/3#:~:text=terms and conditions-,When you can use a bus pass,Nu-Venture and Redroute buses

This is not correct. See Arriva's website

Senior Travel Conditions here https://www.arrivabus.co.uk/floating-pages/senior-travel-conditions

Kent and SurreyMedway 09:00Midnight
Kent and SurreyKent 09:3023:00

Unfortunately whenever anything is devolved there will be lines drawn.

The requirement to accept bus passes applies to journeys starting between 0930 and 2300 on weekdays, and at any time on weekends and bank holidays.
Local authorities may offer enhancements to that, such as allowing travel before 0930 (many apply it from 0900) or after 2300, or allowing a companion pass for disabled passengers, or on tourist routes, but these are discretionary.
What I can't see a definitive ruling on is what happens if you start your journey in the small hours of Saturday morning. Does a journey starting at 0030 count as the end of Friday's service (and so is after 2300 and not eligible) or a Saturday service (and so is eligible)?

The rules that apply are determined by where you start your journey, as that is the council that will reimburse the bus company for your travel.

It is not uncommon to have buses that have different rules applying at different points – for example, York and North Yorkshire allow travel from 0900, but neighbouring councils in East, West & South Yorkshire, Lancashire and Tees Valley don't, meaning that (for example) passengers travelling from Harrogate to Leeds can use their pass from 0900, but travelling from Leeds to Harrogate on the same bus route can't use them until 0930. There will even be journeys where passengers travelling north from Harewood can't use their pass, but if they were to walk a mile north and over the county line, they would be able to use their pass on the same actual bus.

It does feel like the 2300 cut-off is unnecessary – I would be surprised if there were many services that were that busy after 2300 that they wanted to deter pensioners from using them – but if those are the rules that are in place then drivers are required to enforce them, and not doing so could get them into trouble if they were found out. And be careful what you wish for – if you are arguing that we should have consistency across councils and not have neighbouring councils with different rules then the almost inevitable implication of that would be that all councils would remove all discretionary elements of the pass, and it would be stripped back to the statutory minimum everywhere, to many passengers' detriment.

Quite - there are hardly any buses here after 11 and none of them have many passengers. Regression to the minimum is of course what councils like doing. It's not good enough.

 

[Blakey2024]

I would have thought that the time validity is determined by the rules in place with the authority at the place ones boards the bus and nothing to do with who issued the pass.

I think the 23:00 cutoff (for authorities who apply it strictly) is to prevent oldies riding round all night where that is possible, but 23:00 is an early cutoff for those who go on nights out.

It's complicated. The bus company don't want the money. That should be the end of the matter really.

 

[PeterC]

It's complicated. The bus company don't want the money. That should be the end of the matter really.

It's the local authorities who pay the piper and they decide the tune.

 

[Busaholic]

As has already been stated, the national scheme operates from 09.30 to 23.00 minimum during the week, so where a bus journey starts after 11 p.m. and goes through two council areas, if one area has chosen wider hours than the minimum, there can be problems.

In the case of the route in question, which I've known for fifty years, if a bus were to leave Maidstone after 11 p.m. then the Kent C.C. rules would apply to all concessionary pass holders, no matter where they were issued, so a fare would be chargeable. On the other hand, if there were to be an equivalent journey in the opposite direction, all passholders would be able to ride for free. The only relevant factor on the journey is the time of departure of that bus, the duration of that journey and which council areas you traverse are totally irrelevant, unfortunately. By the way, if that journey was made on a Saturday night, there'd be no problems for anyone!

 

[PeterY]

I got my old gits bus pass in January and only used it a few times so far. I live in Hertfordshire and I can use it 24/7. Outside the county it's after 9.30. So if I want to go to Chesham (Buckinghamshire) I can use the first bus there but I can't return until after 9.30. If I think railway ticketing is complicated so is using my bus pass. You'll be lucky to find many buses in Hertfordshire after 23.00

 

[WibbleWobble]

It is not uncommon to have buses that have different rules applying at different points – for example, York and North Yorkshire allow travel from 0900, but neighbouring councils in East, West & South Yorkshire, Lancashire and Tees Valley don't, meaning that (for example) passengers travelling from Harrogate to Leeds can use their pass from 0900, but travelling from Leeds to Harrogate on the same bus route can't use them until 0930. There will even be journeys where passengers travelling north from Harewood can't use their pass, but if they were to walk a mile north and over the county line, they would be able to use their pass on the same actual bus.

Not necessarily the case in all areas - the earlier permitted usage usually only applies to passes issued in that authority area. So a passenger walking across the boundary to take advantage of the earlier start may still be declined by the ticket machine or driver because the pass was issued outside of the authority area.

Wiltshire is a case in point - they allow travel on *some* earlier buses, but only for passes issued by Wiltshire Council.

 

[Blakey2024]

As has already been stated, the national scheme operates from 09.30 to 23.00 minimum during the week, so where a bus journey starts after 11 p.m. and goes through two council areas, if one area has chosen wider hours than the minimum, there can be problems.

In the case of the route in question, which I've known for fifty years, if a bus were to leave Maidstone after 11 p.m. then the Kent C.C. rules would apply to all concessionary pass holders, no matter where they were issued, so a fare would be chargeable. On the other hand, if there were to be an equivalent journey in the opposite direction, all passholders would be able to ride for free. The only relevant factor on the journey is the time of departure of that bus, the duration of that journey and which council areas you traverse are totally irrelevant, unfortunately. By the way, if that journey was made on a Saturday night, there'd be no problems for anyone!

I have it on Arriva's authority that the bus pass is good for 12.00 even if the journey begins in Kent. There is a very minor note of this on Arriva's website at https://www.arrivabus.co.uk/floating-pages/senior-travel-conditions

I got my old gits bus pass in January and only used it a few times so far. I live in Hertfordshire and I can use it 24/7. Outside the county it's after 9.30. So if I want to go to Chesham (Buckinghamshire) I can use the first bus there but I can't return until after 9.30. If I think railway ticketing is complicated so is using my bus pass. You'll be lucky to find many buses in Hertfordshire after 23.00

Exactly - I cannot really see the point of the cut off time - there are very few buses and no one is on them. Are we supposed to be at home emptying our bedpans or something?

It's the local authorities who pay the piper and they decide the tune.

Arriva have confirmed I'm good to go. Kent CC seem not to even understand the scheme. I've requested a call back. I doubt I will get one.

 

[Roger1973]

On one hand, I agree that the 2300 limit (as introduced with the English National Concessionary Travel Scheme) seems faintly bizarre - either someone believed that over 60's (as I think it still was then) should be at home by then, or didn't think that buses ran that late anyway. An 'until last bus' would be more rational (or having each 'day' ending at something like 0430 where there's a 24/7 service, as in London.)

Another practical issue is that local authority boundaries in many cases no longer match urban areas - I think there are some outer suburbs of 'the medway towns' that are outside the boundaries of the Medway Council area. Reading is another one - many of the southern / eastern suburbs of Reading are in Wokingham Borough, many western suburbs are in West Berkshire.

But ultimately, this country has a long standing structure of local authorities that have a combination of duties (things they must do) and discretionary powers within national legislation, and there are always going to be boundaries. You can get situations where one side of a road is in X council area, the other side is in Y council area. (I can think of a couple of places where a concessionary pass validity depends whether you get on this side of the road to go to town X or the other side of the road to go to town Y.)

And councils exercising their discretionary powers and the locally elected councillors making local decisions is not 'petty bureaucracy' or a 'postcode lottery' as chunks of the press like calling it when it suits their agendas.

Reimbursement to bus operators for transporting pass-holders is the responsibility of the council where person boards a bus, not the council who has issued the pass, and in theory additional funding from central government was allocated on that basis (so as not to penalise holiday resorts for example)

And therefore the rules about whether a pass is valid outside the statutory hours is for the council where the bus journey starts, not the council who's issued the pass. For a journey starting in (administrative) Kent County rather than Medway, it's Kent County Council who are paying for the journey, not the council (neighbouring or otherwise) who issued the pass, and it's up to Kent CC whether they will fund anything more than the statutory scheme, either just for their own residents (prime example being the London 'Freedom Pass' which allows travel on the Underground, an ENCTS pass from elsewhere doesn't), or in general.

Without wishing to get too party political about it, councils' finances have been under pressure for some years now. Councils don't have that much choice about funding statutory services, so it's inevitable that discretionary services are more likely to be cut.

I'm not quite sure what you're arguing for here - to 'level up' and have the national scheme improved (and funded appropriately)? Or 'level down' and councils lose the discretionary powers to offer anything above the statutory scheme?

I have it on Arriva's authority that the bus pass is good for 12.00 even if the journey begins in Kent. There is a very minor note of this on Arriva's website at https://www.arrivabus.co.uk/floating-pages/senior-travel-conditions

That page says Kent is 0930 to 2300, Medway is 0900 to midnight. It is however open to being misunderstood - it should make it clear that it means journeys that start in each area, not journeys made with passes issued in that area.

When it says the Central Bedfordshire scheme is all day, a Central Bedfordshire resident wouldn't get free travel outside statutory hours if they started a 'morning peak' journey in Kent, for example.

 

[duncombec]

I have it on Arriva's authority that the bus pass is good for 12.00 even if the journey begins in Kent. There is a very minor note of this on Arriva's website at https://www.arrivabus.co.uk/floating-pages/senior-travel-conditions


Arriva have confirmed I'm good to go. Kent CC seem not to even understand the scheme. I've requested a call back. I doubt I will get one.

With respect, it's you who has misunderstood.

The local authorities (in this case Kent) administer the scheme and set the rules, the operator (Arriva) merely accepts or declines the pass. If they accept one out of hours, they simply won't be paid for the use.

One of the things that is simple about the scheme is that the rules of the authority where you start your journey count, not who issued the pass. The Arriva website is quite clear that journeys starting in Kent are only free until 23:00.

Arriva Customer Services are generally considered to be some of the worst among operators for actually knowing the rules, even for their own tickets!

 

[yorksrob]

Sounds like nonsense from the bus company.

Passenger has a bus pass - they are entitled to travel so long as its not "twirly".

 

[duncombec]

Another practical issue is that local authority boundaries in many cases no longer match urban areas - I think there are some outer suburbs of 'the medway towns' that are outside the boundaries of the Medway Council area. Reading is another one - many of the southern / eastern suburbs of Reading are in Wokingham Borough, many western suburbs are in West Berkshire.

There are three, and only by quirk of the 1960s - the boundaries to the districts were never updated from the old Parish boundaries, even after development spread over them.

Laker Road, Rochester, has one pair of bus stops in an industrial estate, and doesn't get a bus before 0930. Number of residents, highly likely to be zero!

The area of Walderslade Woods has peak hour journeys to and from Chatham, but the last of those leaves at 0736, with the next 'regular' bus not until 0936. It's a Medway contract, and residents there can only travel into Medway, but allows for Kent passes. It's driveway and double-garage territory, so not very bus friendly.

Most curiously, Lordswood has three bus stops in the middle of a loop working that fall into Kent. Once again, they can only travel to Medway (commercial service), but Kent are - at least in theory - their issuing authority. I suspect, but cannot confirm, that there may be a acceptance agreement... or the locals walk to their local shops, which is the start of the route and falls in Medway, before going back past their local bus stop on the bus for that half hour!

There is no doubt the driver was correct. The journey started in Kent, and therefore the pass wasn't valid after 11pm.

 

[PeterY]

Exactly - I cannot really see the point of the cut off time - there are very few buses and no one is on them. Are we supposed to be at home emptying our bedpans or something?

My night clubbing days are long gone.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Sounds like nonsense from the bus company.

Passenger has a bus pass - they are entitled to travel so long as its not "twirly".

Or too late...

 

[HullRailMan]

This is not correct. See Arriva's website

Senior Travel Conditions here https://www.arrivabus.co.uk/floating-pages/senior-travel-conditions




Quite - there are hardly any buses here after 11 and none of them have many passengers. Regression to the minimum is of course what councils like doing. It's not good enough.

Erm, it is correct! As others have said, if the journey starts in Kent their rules apply - it doesn’t matter who issued the pass. It seems the person in question was a ‘know it all’ who actually didn’t, and stumping up £2 (hardly a fortune) was a step too far.

Councils of course can fund usage outside of the statutory hours, at their own cost. Here in Hull, passes issued by Hull City Council only are valid at anytime. Across the border in the East Riding of Yorkshire, nothing is valid until 0930.

 

[GusB]

An infuriating story about buses and petty bureaucracy by local councils in Kent and Medway https://brexitrage.com/on-the-buses/

Having read your blog post, I'm assuming that your journey was from Gillingham to Maidstone - a distance of 11.2 miles - and back; according to Google Maps, that's a round trip of 22.4 miles:

Gillingham to Maidstone

www.google.com

Imagine for a moment that there was no bus at all to get you from B to A after your gig (assuming that you were actually able to get from A to B by bus) - how much would it have cost if you had to do the return trip by taxi? As it is, you have the option of getting a bus home when there are many, many places throughout the country where the people would be crying out for such a late bus, let alone one on that only costs £2.

I'm not an expert on how concessionary passes are reimbursed in England; thankfully we have a few people who are knowledgeable enough on the subject and they've explained exactly why you were unable to get a free trip home. If it was me, I'd be grateful for a) having a bus so late in the evening in the first place and b) only having to pay two quid to get home - these days it costs me nearly £30 for a 7 mile taxi home at the end of the night.

 

[Blakey2024]

On one hand, I agree that the 2300 limit (as introduced with the English National Concessionary Travel Scheme) seems faintly bizarre - either someone believed that over 60's (as I think it still was then) should be at home by then, or didn't think that buses ran that late anyway. An 'until last bus' would be more rational (or having each 'day' ending at something like 0430 where there's a 24/7 service, as in London.)

Another practical issue is that local authority boundaries in many cases no longer match urban areas - I think there are some outer suburbs of 'the medway towns' that are outside the boundaries of the Medway Council area. Reading is another one - many of the southern / eastern suburbs of Reading are in Wokingham Borough, many western suburbs are in West Berkshire.

But ultimately, this country has a long standing structure of local authorities that have a combination of duties (things they must do) and discretionary powers within national legislation, and there are always going to be boundaries. You can get situations where one side of a road is in X council area, the other side is in Y council area. (I can think of a couple of places where a concessionary pass validity depends whether you get on this side of the road to go to town X or the other side of the road to go to town Y.)

And councils exercising their discretionary powers and the locally elected councillors making local decisions is not 'petty bureaucracy' or a 'postcode lottery' as chunks of the press like calling it when it suits their agendas.

Reimbursement to bus operators for transporting pass-holders is the responsibility of the council where person boards a bus, not the council who has issued the pass, and in theory additional funding from central government was allocated on that basis (so as not to penalise holiday resorts for example)

And therefore the rules about whether a pass is valid outside the statutory hours is for the council where the bus journey starts, not the council who's issued the pass. For a journey starting in (administrative) Kent County rather than Medway, it's Kent County Council who are paying for the journey, not the council (neighbouring or otherwise) who issued the pass, and it's up to Kent CC whether they will fund anything more than the statutory scheme, either just for their own residents (prime example being the London 'Freedom Pass' which allows travel on the Underground, an ENCTS pass from elsewhere doesn't), or in general.

Without wishing to get too party political about it, councils' finances have been under pressure for some years now. Councils don't have that much choice about funding statutory services, so it's inevitable that discretionary services are more likely to be cut.

I'm not quite sure what you're arguing for here - to 'level up' and have the national scheme improved (and funded appropriately)? Or 'level down' and councils lose the discretionary powers to offer anything above the statutory scheme?



That page says Kent is 0930 to 2300, Medway is 0900 to midnight. It is however open to being misunderstood - it should make it clear that it means journeys that start in each area, not journeys made with passes issued in that area.

When it says the Central Bedfordshire scheme is all day, a Central Bedfordshire resident wouldn't get free travel outside statutory hours if they started a 'morning peak' journey in Kent, for example.

Yes, I am arguing for clarity and some update of what do sound like 1960's rules. Since that time, there are virtually no buses after 23.00 and few travelling on them so the revenue loss is almost non existent. Arriva told me that the bus driver had simply misunderstood the rules and then made me the least popular man on the bus by getting off to call his boss to make the bus five minutes late. He was clearly hoping that peer pressure would kick in and / or get authorisation to leave me in the middle of nowhere. They say that they will explain the rules to him, but the scheme is now out of date and confusing. It needs to be neither.

Having read your blog post, I'm assuming that your journey was from Gillingham to Maidstone - a distance of 11.2 miles - and back; according to Google Maps, that's a round trip of 22.4 miles:

Gillingham to Maidstone

www.google.com

Imagine for a moment that there was no bus at all to get you from B to A after your gig (assuming that you were actually able to get from A to B by bus) - how much would it have cost if you had to do the return trip by taxi? As it is, you have the option of getting a bus home when there are many, many places throughout the country where the people would be crying out for such a late bus, let alone one on that only costs £2.

I'm not an expert on how concessionary passes are reimbursed in England; thankfully we have a few people who are knowledgeable enough on the subject and they've explained exactly why you were unable to get a free trip home. If it was me, I'd be grateful for a) having a bus so late in the evening in the first place and b) only having to pay two quid to get home - these days it costs me nearly £30 for a 7 mile taxi home at the end of the night.

The cost is not the point and I have been used to either cycling it or using the bike and train. But as I get older I thought it was worth a try. I'd been using it for a few weeks and none of the drivers have a problem with it. I am arguing for clarity and some update of what do sound like 1960's rules. Whether it's £2.00 or £20.00 is not the point at all.

Erm, it is correct! As others have said, if the journey starts in Kent their rules apply - it doesn’t matter who issued the pass. It seems the person in question was a ‘know it all’ who actually didn’t, and stumping up £2 (hardly a fortune) was a step too far.

Councils of course can fund usage outside of the statutory hours, at their own cost. Here in Hull, passes issued by Hull City Council only are valid at anytime. Across the border in the East Riding of Yorkshire, nothing is valid until 0930.

Arriva confirmed that I'm right. Look more carefully at the rules for Kent / Medway and Kent / Surrey.

Or too late...

Quite

My night clubbing days are long gone.

Well, Maidstone also shuts at 23.00 - perhaps I should be cleaning the bedpan instead ....

There are three, and only by quirk of the 1960s - the boundaries to the districts were never updated from the old Parish boundaries, even after development spread over them.

Laker Road, Rochester, has one pair of bus stops in an industrial estate, and doesn't get a bus before 0930. Number of residents, highly likely to be zero!

The area of Walderslade Woods has peak hour journeys to and from Chatham, but the last of those leaves at 0736, with the next 'regular' bus not until 0936. It's a Medway contract, and residents there can only travel into Medway, but allows for Kent passes. It's driveway and double-garage territory, so not very bus friendly.

Most curiously, Lordswood has three bus stops in the middle of a loop working that fall into Kent. Once again, they can only travel to Medway (commercial service), but Kent are - at least in theory - their issuing authority. I suspect, but cannot confirm, that there may be a acceptance agreement... or the locals walk to their local shops, which is the start of the route and falls in Medway, before going back past their local bus stop on the bus for that half hour!

There is no doubt the driver was correct. The journey started in Kent, and therefore the pass wasn't valid after 11pm.

Arriva have confirmed that the driver was wrong and the website makes a micro difference between Kent / Medway and Kent / Surrey which is hard to understand and very confusing unless read carefully.

BTW, there is no way that you could get from Kent to Surrey at any time in the day, let alone 23.00. And no buses.

Sounds like nonsense from the bus company.

Passenger has a bus pass - they are entitled to travel so long as its not "twirly".

Yes. The money is not the point. Things should be right and they should not be subject to casual ambiguity. Victor Meldrew

 

[Lewisham2221]

Yes, I am arguing for clarity and some update of what do sound like 1960's rules. Since that time, there are virtually no buses after 23.00 and few travelling on them so the revenue loss is almost non existent. Arriva told me that the bus driver had simply misunderstood the rules and then made me the least popular man on the bus by getting off to call his boss to make the bus five minutes late. He was clearly hoping that peer pressure would kick in and / or get authorisation to leave me in the middle of nowhere. They say that they will explain the rules to him, but the scheme is now out of date and confusing. It needs to be neither.


The cost is not the point and I have been used to either cycling it or using the bike and train. But as I get older I thought it was worth a try. I'd been using it for a few weeks and none of the drivers have a problem with it. I am arguing for clarity and some update of what do sound like 1960's rules. Whether it's £2.00 or £20.00 is not the point at all.


Arriva confirmed that I'm right. Look more carefully at the rules for Kent / Medway and Kent / Surrey.


Quite


Well, Maidstone also shuts at 23.00 - perhaps I should be cleaning the bedpan instead ....


Arriva have confirmed that the driver was wrong and the website makes a micro difference between Kent / Medway and Kent / Surrey which is hard to understand and very confusing unless read carefully.

BTW, there is no way that you could get from Kent to Surrey at any time in the day, let alone 23.00. And no buses.


Yes. The money is not the point. Things should be right and they should not be subject to casual ambiguity. Victor Meldrew

Quite frankly, whoever it was you spoke to at Arriva is wrong. As somebody else earlier in the thread pointed out, Medway Council's own website clearly states that passes are only valid until 2300 weekdays if travelling in Kent. Kent County Council's website clearly states that bus passes are only valid until 2300 weekdays. The Arriva webpage which you keep linking to also, less clearly, shows the 2300 limit for journeys commencing in Kent.

These are not 1960's rules. These are rules created in the 2000's, by central government, which state that pass holders must be entitled to free travel 0930 - 2300 Monday to Friday (and all day Sat/Sun/BH). The rules allow individual local authorities to enhance provision, but any such enhancement only applies for journeys which commence in that authority. By all means lobby your local MP to get the "1960's rules" changed, but as it stands, it's you that's wrong here, not the bus driver.

 

[Blakey2024]

Quite frankly, whoever it was you spoke to at Arriva is wrong. As somebody else earlier in the thread pointed out, Medway Council's own website clearly states that passes are only valid until 2300 weekdays if travelling in Kent. Kent County Council's website clearly states that bus passes are only valid until 2300 weekdays. The Arriva webpage which you keep linking to also, less clearly, shows the 2300 limit for journeys commencing in Kent.

These are not 1960's rules. These are rules created in the 2000's, by central government, which state that pass holders must be entitled to free travel 0930 - 2300 Monday to Friday (and all day Sat/Sun/BH). The rules allow individual local authorities to enhance provision, but any such enhancement only applies for journeys which commence in that authority. By all means lobby your local MP to get the "1960's rules" changed, but as it stands, it's you that's wrong here, not the bus driver.

Phone Arriva. He was quite sure as have the other bus drivers since I've been using this service.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Phone Arriva. He was quite sure as have the other bus drivers since I've been using this service.

I'd never waste my time contacting a bus company customer service department for information purposes. The big groups are especially good at employing people in a centralised contact centre, whom generally have no idea what they are talking about. Whether other bus drivers have allowed you to make the same journey for free before is irrelevant.

The rules apply according to where you board the bus. If you board the bus in Kent, Kent CC rules apply. It doesn't matter where you're going. It doesn't matter where the bus started it's journey. It doesn't matter which garage the bus is based at.

Did you attempt to scan your pass on the ticket machine and the machine rejected it?

 

[PeterC]

I'd never waste my time contacting a bus company customer service department for information purposes. The big groups are especially good at employing people in a centralised contact centre, whom generally have no idea what they are talking about. Whether other bus drivers have allowed you to make the same journey for free before is irrelevant.

The rules apply according to where you board the bus. If you board the bus in Kent, Kent CC rules apply. It doesn't matter where you're going. It doesn't matter where the bus started it's journey. It doesn't matter which garage the bus is based at.

Did you attempt to scan your pass on the ticket machine and the machine rejected it?

We have rants here when poorly trained staff misinterpret rules to the customer's disadvantage (aka making them up). But when staff "make them up" in the customers' favour the it's the poir devil who does their job properly who gets blamed.

 

[Blakey2024]

I'd never waste my time contacting a bus company customer service department for information purposes. The big groups are especially good at employing people in a centralised contact centre, whom generally have no idea what they are talking about. Whether other bus drivers have allowed you to make the same journey for free before is irrelevant.

The rules apply according to where you board the bus. If you board the bus in Kent, Kent CC rules apply. It doesn't matter where you're going. It doesn't matter where the bus started it's journey. It doesn't matter which garage the bus is based at.

Did you attempt to scan your pass on the ticket machine and the machine rejected it?

The person at Arriva was the exception that proved the rule. Regards the pass, sometimes it scans, sometimes not.

We have rants here when poorly trained staff misinterpret rules to the customer's disadvantage (aka making them up). But when staff "make them up" in the customers' favour the it's the poir devil who does their job properly who gets blamed.

The driver was a new recruit. I did not blame him, but did explain that it normally worked and showed him the rules. The rules on the Arriva site are complicated due to the different councils, but the Kent Medway one is different to Kent Surrey. Of course it's impossible to travel from Kent to Surrey in the evening anyway. The rules need review in the light of the passage of time.

 

[duncombec]

Phone Arriva. He was quite sure as have the other bus drivers since I've been using this service.

If Arriva told you their bus drivers were allowed to break the speed limit and go through red lights, would you believe them unquestioningly because 'Arriva said', or the twenty people who told you they weren't?

As you have been told repeatedly, the local authority in whose area the journey starts sets the rules. That is set down in statutory guidance.

If Arriva have accepted your pass before, fine, but they won't have received any payment for your journey. Knowing how Arriva account, that may well see said bus cut owing to 'lack of passengers'.

 

[Blakey2024]

The system needs reform.

 

[GusB]

The system needs reform.

Perhaps there should be some consistency across local authority areas but, as been pointed out previously, this could result in every LA applying the statutory rules and doing away with any local enhancements.

There's little point in writing to your local councillor as they're not going to be able to do anything to change how a neighbouring council does things; you might want to contact your MP instead.

Arriva won't be able to change the rules and their drivers, regardless of how new they are, are simply doing their jobs; in this recent case the driver was correct to refuse the pass.

I think we'll leave it there for now.