Red Distant Signal?

[Andy873]

I was looking through the signal box diagrams that Chris Littlewqrth kindly did for me, but one has me puzzled:

Two signals (one bottom left and one bottom right) marked 1 and 20 are drawn as distant signals but Chris has them down as red ones?

Martholme Colliery Siding

Now this diagram is from 1895 (L&Y period), the others are from the BR period (1950s - 1960s), these other ones as you would expect had distant' signals in yellow.

Was this an L&Y thing? and when were yellows brought in?

 

[edwin_m]

IIRC distant signals were red up until the 1920s, only being distinguished by the cut-out in the end (not sure if the white band was a chevron also). I believe the use of a yellow light came before the changing of the arm colour.

 

[rototunablack5]

This may be of help: https://www.lmssociety.org.uk/monographs/M09.pdf

 

[John Webb]

This may be of help: https://www.lmssociety.org.uk/monographs/M09.pdf

Interesting, but incomplete in that it doesn't appear to mention the LMS policy of converting 'Isolated Distants' from mechanical operation to being a colour light signal from the early 1930s onwards. (This eliminated the need for fogmen and the maintenance of a mile or more of wire and its supporting pulleys.)
Neither does it refer to the early 1920s debate over the use of the three position semaphore signal which lead to the use of 3 or 4 aspect colour light signals using yellow as the caution colour rather than the mechanically complex 3-aspect semaphore signal. In summary, it was the use of yellow as a colour light warning aspect that lead to semaphore distants being painted yellow to match.

 

[D Williams]

White is right, red is wrong,
Green means slowly go along....

 

[Rescars]

White is right, red is wrong,
Green means slowly go along....

Others will know more, but IIRC, these were the signal lamp colours used during the early years of the GWR Broad Gauge.

 

[Railsigns]

In summary, it was the use of yellow as a colour light warning aspect that lead to semaphore distants being painted yellow to match.

It was actually the use of yellow lights in 3-position semaphore signals that *led to yellow lights being used on (2-position) semaphore distant signals, which in turn led to their arms being painted yellow (initially on the Great Central Railway). Some companies had already started converting their semaphore distant arms and lights to yellow before the first 3-aspect colour light signals appeared in 1923.

 

[Andy873]

IIRC distant signals were red up until the 1920s, only being distinguished by the cut-out in the end (not sure if the white band was a chevron also). I believe the use of a yellow light came before the changing of the arm colour.

In summary, it was the use of yellow as a colour light warning aspect that lead to semaphore distants being painted yellow to match.

It surprised me that distant signal arms weren't painted yellow sooner.

White is right, red is wrong,
Green means slowly go along....

Well, all I can say is that Chris was a stickler for detail. If Chris felt that in 1895 Martholme Colliery Siding's had two red distant ones, then that's good enough for me.

This may be of help: https://www.lmssociety.org.uk/monographs/M09.pdf

A fascinating read - Thanks!

The above article helps me greatly with another puzzle I have...

My L&Y Society book about my old branch line simply states that the original L&Y signals and posts were replaced with tubular steel ones during the LMS period, but doesn't give a specific year. After reading the above article, it's clear the change over (for my old line) was probably done in the 1930's. I can't see it being much later than that because of WW2 and the need for large quantities of steel.

 

[John Webb]

.....My L&Y Society book about my old branch line simply states that the original L&Y signals and posts were replaced with tubular steel ones during the LMS period, but doesn't give a specific year. After reading the above article, it's clear the change over (for my old line) was probably done in the 1930's. I can't see it being much later than that because of WW2 and the need for large quantities of steel.

For information, the LMS tubular post signal style was adopted by BR as its 'standard' mechanical system. (Except for the WR who used lower quadrant signals, of course!) I would have thought it likely signals would have been changed when life-expired (ie post had rotted to a dangerous level) rather than all in one go?

 

[The Puddock]

Well, all I can say is that Chris was a stickler for detail. If Chris felt that in 1895 Martholme Colliery Siding's had two red distant ones, then that's good enough for me.

He isn’t saying the diagram is wrong, he was giving you the very old engineman’s rhyme from when the signal aspect colours were white (indicating proceed, equivalent to today’s green), red (indicating stop) and green (indicating caution, equivalent to today’s yellow).

“White is right” - i.e. if you see a signal showing a white lamp then you keep going
“Red is wrong” - i.e. if you see a signal displaying a red aspect then something’s wrong, so you must stop
”Green means slowly [alternatively ‘gently’] go along” - i.e. if you see a distant signal showing green then brake and be prepared to stop because the next signal is at danger.

There are/were lots of little rhymes like that to help with learning the rules.

 

[SteveM70]

The distant signal on display in the entrance to York station (from Haxby????) is a case in point

 

[John Webb]

He isn’t saying the diagram is wrong, he was giving you the very old engineman’s rhyme from when the signal aspect colours were white (indicating proceed, equivalent to today’s green), red (indicating stop) and green (indicating caution, equivalent to today’s yellow). There are/were lots of little rhymes like that to help with learning the rules.

The rhyme started off, I understand, from when the 'signal' indications were given by such coloured flags held by lineside policemen before fixed signals were introduced.

 

[Rescars]

IIRC Brunel's disc and crossbar signals were augmented with green caution boards, pointed on one side and notched on the other.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Deleted

 

[Friary Yard]

Shunting Handsignals using a lamp were, and probablty still are, given in white for normal speed and in green for slow speed

 

[Sultan1056]

The distant signal on display in the entrance to York station (from Haxby????) is a case in point

Yes it was the Up Distant from Haxby. IIRC it was taken out of use in the mid eighties, back then it was painted yellow. When it was displayed at York station it reverted back to its original colour of red.