Ticket machine visibility

[randyrippley]

I had to buy tickets at Carnforth yesterday and suddenly realised just how difficult it is to actually find the ticket machines.
You'd think they would have big bright yellow signs on top saying "tickets here", with signs pointing to them.
But what do you actually find? Unlabeled anonymous purple boxes that look like dispensing machines for Cadbury' chocolate. Easy to miss them.
What made it even worse was that both were hidden, one in an alcove, the other set right at the back of a wide platform and positioned so that it wasn't obvious that it was anything other than a purple box.
Morecambe is the same, the two ticket machines there are hidden alongside the bicycle racks. Just purple boxes that look like confectionery dispensers.
If Northern expect people to buy tickets they really need to make the machines visible

 

[Mcr Warrior]

What made it even worse was that both were hidden, one in an alcove, the other set right at the back of a wide platform and positioned so that it wasn't obvious that it was anything other than a purple box.

Isn't the TVM on the platform for Barrow-in-Furness (at Carnforth station) at the very top of the ramp up from the subway/underpass? So, you essentially have to walk right past it on your way on to that platform. But, yes, as you say, not particularly well signposted.

 

[PeterY]

Northern machines always reminded of Cadbury's chocolate vending machines. I've never used one but "played" around, asking stupid fares and the only advantage with them, is I can see the writing without getting my reading glasses out

 

[randyrippley]

Isn't the TVM on the platform for Barrow-in-Furness (at Carnforth station) at the very top of the ramp up from the subway/underpass? So, you essentially have to walk right past it on your way on to that platform. But, yes, as you say, not particularly well signposted.

You're right, that's where it is - but totally unmarked. If you didn't know what it was you'd walk straight past. A excellent example of hidden in plain sight. Walk up the ramp all you see is a random Cadburys purple metal box without any kind of signage.

 

[Dr Hoo]

All the Northern ticket machines that I am familiar with have big screens on the front, scrolling between promotional displays when ‘idle’. Do the Carnforth machines not have this feature?

Furthermore, I’ve never seen a Cadbury chocolate machine in any colour in recent years, let alone one as big as a typical ticket machine. Where are these apparently similar machines to be found?

 

[randyrippley]

All the Northern ticket machines that I am familiar with have big screens on the front, scrolling between promotional displays when ‘idle’. Do the Carnforth machines not have this feature?

Furthermore, I’ve never seen a Cadbury chocolate machine in any colour in recent years, let alone one as big as a typical ticket machine. Where are these apparently similar machines to be found?

Promotional displays which don't say "Tickets" and can only be read if you're standing in front of them............you need a big sign on top visible from all angles along with signposts pointing to them

 

[J-2739]

Furthermore, I’ve never seen a Cadbury chocolate machine in any colour in recent years, let alone one as big as a typical ticket machine. Where are these apparently similar machines to be found?

If you use your imagination, you can find them.

 

[LMS 4F]

Surely once you have used one machine then you know what to look for on subsequent trips. More worrying is that on my latest journey on Wednesday only one of the two machines was working at Castleford.
it would me interesting to know if since the installation of these machines there has been an increase in revenue or a reduction of fare evasion.

 

[railrambler]

Surely once you have used one machine then you know what to look for on subsequent trips. More worrying is that on my latest journey on Wednesday only one of the two machines was working at Castleford.
it would me interesting to know if since the installation of these machines there has been an increase in revenue or a reduction of fare evasion.

The ones at Appleby and Kirkby Stephen offer no shelter from Cumbria weather in the winter - just get on the train and buy one from the guard. And then just freeze to death on a 158 without any heating ☹️

 

[randyrippley]

Surely once you have used one machine then you know what to look for on subsequent trips. More worrying is that on my latest journey on Wednesday only one of the two machines was working at Castleford.
it would me interesting to know if since the installation of these machines there has been an increase in revenue or a reduction of fare evasion.

Three quarters of the people waiting for my Manchester-bound train were foreigners

 

[skyhigh]

The ones at Appleby and Kirkby Stephen offer no shelter from Cumbria weather in the winter - just get on the train and buy one from the guard.

Good luck with that if you happen to meet an RPI rather than the guard...

Promotional displays which don't say "Tickets" and can only be read if you're standing in front of them............you need a big sign on top visible from all angles along with signposts pointing to them

Reminds me of when the person responsible for the rollout came on here to ask for feedback, and the thread was pretty much taken over with suggestions of hooks to hang up dog leads and shelves for coffee cups but nobody suggested putting a sign saying 'Tickets' on top.

 

[LMS 4F]

Three quarters of the people waiting for my Manchester-bound train were foreigners

In that case should it say Tickets in a variety of languages depending on the local population?

 

[randyrippley]

In that case should it say Tickets in a variety of languages depending on the local population?

Given the two universities in Lancaster there's a good case for that round here

 

[etr221]

Surely once you have used one machine then you know what to look for on subsequent trips.

And if you haven't used one, how do you know? How are you expected to know?

More worrying is that on my latest journey on Wednesday only one of the two machines was working at Castleford.

What - for Northern and all the other TOCs - is the standard/expectation for machines to be in service? To fix them when they fail? Are reports on what has been achieved in these fields produced - both internally and externally (for ORR, DfT, public)?
How many have TVMs have adjacent help points or built in call for aid facilities for when people have problems, or need to report the machine isn't working?
For those that don't - or even that do, how many have instructions on how to report if they aren't (contact details, machine ids,...)?

In that case should it say Tickets in a variety of languages depending on the local population?

Is there not a fairly standard pictogram for Tickets (and TVMs), for use thoughout Europe?

 

[LMS 4F]

Like many other things on the present day railway Ticket machines must have seemed a good idea initially but exposure to the paying public has shown up their faults. Whilst excepting that we will never go back to staffing levels of yesteryear I feel that the railway has again brought this problem on itself.
Added to this some staff, and perhaps who can blame them, who are seemingly not bothered. On a recent journey on Northern with eight stops I saw the guard check tickets once, just after I got on. Anyone at subsequent stations who didn’t use the machine and who got off before me had the chance of a free ride. If this is a regular attitude then some will never buy a ticket.
My next train that day the Lady guard was all over the job after every station so it’s not all staff by any means.
I understand that if you don’t by a ticket from the machine, tell the guard or the barrier staff you only had cash is the way to avoid penalty fares.

 

[Rail Ranger]

I believe that Northern ticket machines report faults themselves electronically to a central point.

 

[Hadders]

The ones at Appleby and Kirkby Stephen offer no shelter from Cumbria weather in the winter - just get on the train and buy one from the guard. And then just freeze to death on a 158 without any heating ☹️

It is illegal to board a train without a ticket where ticket purchasing facilities exist at the station where you start your journey. Ticket purchasing facilities are an open ticket office or ticket vending machine.

If the ticket vending machine does not accept cash then you should obtain a Promise to Pay voucher from the ticket machine before boarding.

The guard might sell you a ticket on board but as noted above a revenue protection inspector might take a different view.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Reminds me of when the person responsible for the rollout came on here to ask for feedback, and the thread was pretty much taken over with suggestions of hooks to hang up dog leads and shelves for coffee cups but nobody suggested putting a sign saying 'Tickets' on top.

This would seem to suggest that finding or recognising the machine isn’t a common problem, whereas issues such as having one’s hands full clearly are.

As a ‘friend’ of my local station I often assist unfamiliar or encumbered passengers with the machine but nobody has ever asked ‘where is it?’ or ‘how do I buy the chocolate?’.

 

[trainJam]

Put a map of the station including ticket purchasing facilities and help points up at every station next to the usual poster with text descriptions of the station.

A bit like the ones on NRE.

Assuming you can find the map.

 

[Strat-tastic]

Outside ones when they catch the sun, making the text virtually invisible.

 

[1955LR]

I used Holmes Chapel station last week and having arrived in plenty of time to catch the train to Crewe, I has a look round I found I could walk from the car park to the platform via the lockers ,and not pass any Ticket vending machine or any penalty fare notice. I agree that the ticket vending machines are not what I was expecting having scrolling advertisements rather than ticket vending information.

 

[Narrowgauge725]

Last year staying in Hornbeam Park, next to the station, we had walked and looked at the Leeds bound platform and noticed that it had a ticket machine.

Next day weather was horrible and we decided on a trip to York and my wife said show me how to use the ticket machine she says away from any technology.

So we headed to the York bound platform, off set and across a road bridge, only to discover that there wasn't a ticket machine on the other side. It was a quick dash across to buy them and I only just made it back.

As there is no ticket machine on that platform I wonder if, a, it would have been classed as boarding without a ticket and b, I could have bought the cheap tickets I did buy on the machine from the guard.

 

[yorkie]

I had to buy tickets at Carnforth yesterday and suddenly realised just how difficult it is to actually find the ticket machines.
You'd think they would have big bright yellow signs on top saying "tickets here", with signs pointing to them.
But what do you actually find? Unlabeled anonymous purple boxes that look like dispensing machines for Cadbury' chocolate. Easy to miss them.
What made it even worse was that both were hidden, one in an alcove, the other set right at the back of a wide platform and positioned so that it wasn't obvious that it was anything other than a purple box.
Morecambe is the same, the two ticket machines there are hidden alongside the bicycle racks. Just purple boxes that look like confectionery dispensers.
If Northern expect people to buy tickets they really need to make the machines visible

These days you know a Northern guard is checking tickets by the beeping of the Aztec barcodes scans; hardly anyone uses TVMs now.

However I do feel strongly that passengers who board at stations that do not have obvious ticket issuing facilities, who buy on board, should be treated as there being no opportunity to buy before boarding.

But the proportion of sales made on trains by Northern guards now has absolutely plummeted compared to the days pre-dating e-tickets.

I used Holmes Chapel station last week and having arrived in plenty of time to catch the train to Crewe, I has a look round I found I could walk from the car park to the platform via the lockers ,and not pass any Ticket vending machine or any penalty fare notice. I agree that the ticket vending machines are not what I was expecting having scrolling advertisements rather than ticket vending information.

They are probably more effective/active at providing advertisements than issuing tickets, these days!

 

[Dr Hoo]

The ‘advertisements’ often seem to be loosely travel related - recent performance statistics, security messages, industrial action, mental health awareness and so on, providing a useful subliminal reminder of such issues.

 

[randyrippley]

These days you know a Northern guard is checking tickets by the beeping of the Aztec barcodes scans; hardly anyone uses TVMs now...............

But is that because many simply can't find them?

 

[Dr Hoo]

But is that because many simply can't find them?

On the basis that nobody has suggested that there is a programme of hiding, obscuring or camouflaging TVMs, “No”. The change is because more and more people are switching to carrying ‘virtual’ tickets on mobile devices, etc.

 

[randyrippley]

On the basis that nobody has suggested that there is a programme of hiding, obscuring or camouflaging TVMs, “No”. The change is because more and more people are switching to carrying ‘virtual’ tickets on mobile devices, etc.

Well.....perhaps there actually is such a program to minimise use of TVMs to the point where they can be withdrawn? The next step in removing paper tickets.
Of course no-one is going to admit to it, far too politically contentious.
But first they wanted to close the ticket offices, next they'll close the ticket machines

 

[The exile]

In that case should it say Tickets in a variety of languages depending on the local population?

There is a pictogram that has been used for the last 60 years or so…

It shouldn’t exactly require much thought to realise that a sign pointing to the ticket machine(s) is a good idea - particularly where you haven’t walked right past it on entering the station. Having signs that show you from a distance whether it is actually working is probably asking too much!

 

[janb]

I used Holmes Chapel station last week and having arrived in plenty of time to catch the train to Crewe, I has a look round I found I could walk from the car park to the platform via the lockers ,and not pass any Ticket vending machine or any penalty fare notice. I agree that the ticket vending machines are not what I was expecting having scrolling advertisements rather than ticket vending information.

Both the Amazon locker entrance, and InPost locker entrance had visible penalty fare notices in March 2022 (source Google Streetview) so you would have thought they would have just been replaced like for like when updated to £100.

 

[Blackpool boy]

Three quarters of the people waiting for my Manchester-bound train were foreigners

I would imagine then that they wouldve already had tickets as there's pretty much nothing to do at Carnforth apart from visit the museum or steam town if its open so i would guess they were day trippers