Badly Timed Connections (Reality Or Conspiracy?)

[tbtc]

Inspired by the following quote from 455driver and the BR/ Beeching thread (that has allegations about managers deliberately timing services so that they didn't connect) are there any examples (new or old) where it looks like the railway has scheduled services not to connect with each other?

(obviously its unavoidable at somewhere like New Street where there are so many arrivals and departures that not everything can connect, but are there lines where the "London" train arrives at the junction a couple of minutes after the branch line service has departed?)

Maybe the industry could look at "connections" onto branch line services where it is deliberately timed to miss, that really gets my goat!

(not intended as a dig at 455driver - but I didn't want to take the "industry lowering its costs" thread further off course)

 

[steamybrian]

As a former BR timetable planner I speak from experience that when planning a timetable it is just impossible for everything to connect with everything.!

What annoys me is that the South Eastern Trains will not hold booked connections on secondary lines when their own main line trains are late
Connections at Redhill between Southern Railway trains from London to South Eastern Trains to Tonbridge are forgotten Many times waited 55-59 minutes on an hourly interval service hock:

 

[yorkie]

It was alleged on another thread that a train from Derby to Crewe was re-timed by 2 minutes to deliberately break the connection with the last train to Scotland.

 

[455driver]

Some might be deliberate (as in Yorkies case above), some might be necessity, some will be wee poor planning and some will be anywhere in between.

 

[lemonic]

The connection at Ipswich between arriving Felixstowe and departing Peterborough trains used to be 6 minutes (arrival time xx:54, departure time xx:00), but since December is now generally 4 minutes (arrival time xx:54, departure time xx:58). This breaks the minimum connection time of 5 minutes and so the connection time is now often 1 hour 4 minutes. As the trains to Peterborough only run every 2 hours, it's not as though you want to chance it on an unofficial 4 minute connection.

I think this is not a conspiracy and the train to Peterborough has been moved to depart earlier so that there is platform space for the train from Cambridge to arrive at xx:02. It is just a shame that the timings couldn't be tweaked slightly to make the connection better again.

 

[tbtc]

It was alleged on another thread that a train from Derby to Crewe was re-timed by 2 minutes to deliberately break the connection with the last train to Scotland.

This is the kind of thing that inspired me to start this thread - there are going to be some examples where an improvement in one place means a connection is missed further on (remember the complaints about Eureka o the ECML meaning the final wait of the day between London trains and Stirling trans at Edinburgh was now too close to be an official connection?).

The Derby - Crewe service may have been to accommodate a better connection with a Nottingham arrival at Derby or to avoid a conflict with another working - or it could be the TOC trying to save money on reimbursing people for missed connections at Crewe (since each person who missed the last Scottish train of the day at Crewe may cost EMT hundreds of pounds in taxi/ hotel?).

 

[Lewisham2221]

This is the kind of thing that inspired me to start this thread - there are going to be some examples where an improvement in one place means a connection is missed further on (remember the complaints about Eureka o the ECML meaning the final wait of the day between London trains and Stirling trans at Edinburgh was now too close to be an official connection?).

The Derby - Crewe service may have been to accommodate a better connection with a Nottingham arrival at Derby or to avoid a conflict with another working - or it could be the TOC trying to save money on reimbursing people for missed connections at Crewe (since each person who missed the last Scottish train of the day at Crewe may cost EMT hundreds of pounds in taxi/ hotel?).

The connections for the Crewe-Derby service are generally poor anyway. Usually arrive at Derby to see the Matlock-Notts train just departing (after sitting in the platform for about 10 minutes) whilst the arrival from Crewe then sits in the platform for 15-20 minutes.

 

[D6975]

Try looking up the times of trains from Manchester to Colne.

The service from Manchester arrives at Blackburn at xx:50,
the Colne service departs at xx:48.

 

[Roverman]

Weren't Northern accused of retiming a train so that it left somewhere (Buxton?) just before off-peak started?

 

[D6975]

Weren't Northern accused of retiming a train so that it left somewhere (Buxton?) just before off-peak started?

The first TPX off peak from Blackpool used to be the 08:45 (or was it 46?)
A North West rover is valid 08:45 onwards on a weekday.
TPs now leave Blackpool at XX:44

 

[route:oxford]

The xx18 XC arrival at Birmingham from Reading/South...

The xx20 Virgin departure from Birmingham to Scotland...


I have tried and tried to make this (definitely unofficial) connection... But always find my self running along the platform as the doors are closing.

It's so annoying the way that Birmingham is incredibly congested and units that have a design speed of over 125mph are forced to travel a what feels like walking pace for long stretches.

 

[Oswyntail]

Aire/Wharfedale services from Leeds seem to be timed just to miss the arrival of London trains. If there is even the slightest delay, you wait outside teh station as a procession of 333s sails past.

 

[317666]

Gunnislake doesn't really seem to connect with anything without at least a half-hour wait at Plymouth!

 

[fgwrich]

The SWT / FGW Connections at Salisbury have always been rather poor, this having originated from Network SouthEast / Regional Railways days - Especially heading towards Cardiff, unless you use any of the limited SWT services to BTM for example...

 

[Bill Badger]

The off peak xx03 and xx33 departures from Weybridge to Waterloo via Staines which miss the xx05 and xx35 arrival from Woking and then sits 9 minutes at Virginia Water to make time. In the peak the departures change to xx07 and xx37, with just a 5 minute wait at Virginia Water providing a very makeable 2 minute cross platform connection.

Then in the other direction the train arrives at xx07 and xx37 and the Woking service departs at xx11 and xx41, providing an unofficial 4 minute connection which is reduced to 1 minute in the peak, leading to an incredibly dangerous sprint across the station every half hour as passengers position themselves at the front door of the arriving train and are off. God help any poor soul not used to this and getting in their way!

 

[142094]

Try looking up the times of trains from Manchester to Colne.

The service from Manchester arrives at Blackburn at xx:50,
the Colne service departs at xx:48.

I remember this one from last year when planning a few journeys around Manchester. In the end I left it for another day and did Blackpool South - Colne straight through instead of trying to work out what to do at Blackburn for an hour.

 

[30907]

Could this be because Preston-Clitheroe is a more important flow (financially?) than Manchester-Colne? There is, after all, a very competitive Manchester-Burnley bus, and Accy passengers have the Leeds-Blackpools.
Actually the connections are tweaked to "make" in the peaks, at least in theory. I haven't stood on Blackburn enough to see how many people use each connection.
Basically, there just aren't enough trains in East Lancs....but I'm biased

 

[Yew]

Lincoln - Leicester services depart Nottingham 2 mins after the xx:28 to London St pancras. This is probably intentional to keep commuters off the HST's (althoguh if you run you can make the connection sometimes, and if not the Sprinter sits in the platform for a while anyway.)

 

[Bevan Price]

The connections for the Crewe-Derby service are generally poor anyway. Usually arrive at Derby to see the Matlock-Notts train just departing (after sitting in the platform for about 10 minutes) whilst the arrival from Crewe then sits in the platform for 15-20 minutes.

Yes, and they also just miss a connection from Derby to Loughborough - annoying if I want to visit the Great Central. Even worse, in the evening, going back from Derby to Crewe, you just miss the hourly service to Runcorn & Liverpool.

 

[martinsh]

Weren't Northern accused of retiming a train so that it left somewhere (Buxton?) just before off-peak started?

Mauldeth Road IIRC

 

[Lewisham2221]

Yes, and they also just miss a connection from Derby to Loughborough - annoying if I want to visit the Great Central. Even worse, in the evening, going back from Derby to Crewe, you just miss the hourly service to Runcorn & Liverpool.

I wasn't sure if that still happened with the Loughborough/London train, I don't tend to go that way anymore, but it certainly used to be annoying when I travelled that route more often!

Also annoying (For me. I'll admit that it probably affects hardly anyone else.) is that, since the timetable change, the LM Crewe-Euston service now runs 5 minutes in front of the EMT Crewe-Derby service, meaning a 55 minute wait at Stoke should you be travelling from Longport and wanting to travel on the Trent Valley service. I guess I'll probably just catch the bus to Stoke or Kidsgrove and start my journey there when I intend to use the LM service though.

 

[mirodo]

On LU, if interchanging from the Northern to Victoria line at Stockwell (or vice versa), on most occasions the train you want to change to is pulling out of the station as the one you're on comes to a halt.

Not really a huge problem in the grand scheme of things, given the frequency of the service, but annoying nevertheless.

 

[mbga8mjb]

Changing at Carlisle to go on the Tyne valley always seems badly timed. Quite often when you arrive off Tyne Valley there is a pendo on the platform, but the doors are locked before the pacer comes to a stop.

 

[yorksrob]

Wakefield Kirkgate seems to be quite poor for connections, particularly if you're travelling from the Castleford direction towards Huddersfield or Westgate.

 

[umontu]

Besides the SCA-LIV trains, whenever I arrive at MAN from HUD on platform 1 there's a connection to PRE and then KKM leaving on platform 14 a minute later.

Then when I reach PRE usually there's two! Yes TWO! trains leaving for BPN about a minute apart! Both skipping out KKM but stopping at PFY!

Rather conveniently poorly timed. I'm sure there's worse, and it only adds about 20 minutes to the journey, but when the nearest connect leaves just before you get there it's annoying to say the least!

 

[Invincibles]

The connections from Manchester to Syston and return annoy me these days.

Going south East Midlands new second Sheffield train makes a 10 minute connection at Sheffield and 10 minutes at either East Midlands Parkway or Loughborough onto the Lincoln - Leicester train.

However going north the train just misses the corresponding Sheffield train at Loughborough and so you are left to either go to Nottingham and wait a long time for the Liverpool train or to go via Nuneaton and the LM train up the Trent Valley. This means a 25 minute connection at Leicester because the quieter slow train to Birmingham leaves just as the EMT is arriving. This is also a problem because the Stansted to Birmingham is often very busy and adding the connecting passengers from the Ivanhoe line train to that rather than the other can not help.

It would be great if they could bring the arrival into Leicester forward a few minutes (which would preserve the cross platform at Loughborough) and then consequently move the departure from Leicester to a slightly earlier time. If recovery time is really needed then putting the train to Sheffield back a few minutes would be nice, it would preserve northbound connections.

It just frustrates me that a couple of minutes on this route could make a huge difference.

 

[142094]

Changing at Carlisle to go on the Tyne valley always seems badly timed. Quite often when you arrive off Tyne Valley there is a pendo on the platform, but the doors are locked before the pacer comes to a stop.

Trains off the S+C often don't connect well with the Tyne Valley services either - there is often a +1/0/-1 connection, so if the train from Leeds is even slightly delayed, you have no chance. The only good thing is that the Leeds train is booked to arrive at the bay right next to the Newcastle service.

 

[D6975]

Almost completely the reverse, I know, but....

I can think of one location where a booked minus connection nearly always makes. The station staff deliberately hold the (non) connection.
Answers on a postcard....

 

[30907]

The connections from Manchester to Syston and return annoy me these days.
It would be great if they could bring the arrival into Leicester forward a few minutes (which would preserve the cross platform at Loughborough) and then consequently move the departure from Leicester to a slightly earlier time. If recovery time is really needed then putting the train to Sheffield back a few minutes would be nice, it would preserve northbound connections.

It just frustrates me that a couple of minutes on this route could make a huge difference.

But the southbound Ivanhoe is constrained by pathing at Nottingham. You'd have to shift the whole timetable around 15mins earlier to work both ways at Nottingham, so you'd simply lose your southbound connection to gain a northbound one. And that's without looking at any other pathing conflicts - let alone Newark Crossing...

Or extend the turnround times at Leicester, which takes another unit (and crew?). Or accelerate the trains...

 

[Gareth Marston]

Old- Welshpool-Oswestry-Whitchurch service was made non connectable at the 2 W's after the Beeching report earmarked it for closure and it was transferred to London Midland without a doubt. It closed June 65 with BR Managers shouting about lack of use. The Beeching reports traffic survey showed the Welshpool-Oswestry section as being busier that the traffic between Welshpool & Shrewsbury.

New- try going from the Cambrian to Wrexham/Chester/N Wales bar 1st train of day the Holyhead ATW service departs Shrewsbury 1 minute before the Cambrian service arrives. These did connect when ATW introduced their SPT in Dec 05, the Holyhead train use to wait at Shrewsbury 10 mins but there was a lot of criticism from North Wales Assembly Members who used the trains on a Thursday evening about the wait.